Scriptural Evidence: The Immaculate Conception Of Mary

[thirdn6]

Angels come and go, appreared and disappeared at times God saw fit. To Mary at the annunciation, to Joseph in his dreams and their travel to Egypt, to the lowly shepherds at the night Mary gave birth to Jesus, after the temptation of Jesus by the devil … The holy family have had total protection from God during their entire life so that salvation would be carried out. If God could protect them from child murderers and kings as they lived their earthly lives, what’s you (protestants) complaining about what God couldn’t do to Mary personally? From conception to assumption? Full of grace! That’s it. The simplest explanation is in there. Part of God’s love and omnipotence. That’s why Elizabeth exclaimed, " All generations will call her blessed!"

The same thing with Peter. An angel appeared to help him escape from prison so that the purpose of establishing the Church would be carried out. And you (protestants) are protesting all the same…always asking for bible proof, bible proof, bible proof…

 

[rinnie]

Nothing to say in regards, except as always…Scripture is ignored in place of a sinful man. What does the Bible say concerning Mary? No need to answer that question, I already know.

How about this, Not all is written, Stick with Tradition also. What is the difference between what is written in the bible and what was not. Funny in the beginning Jesus wrote down nothing. For many many of years all we had was Tradition. How do you explain that one? So in a sense would it all not be Tradition in the beginning? Did not all of the teachings come from the Mouth of Christ. and the Mouth of the Apostles? Tell me where would anyone be without the Church. Because it was here long before the bible. So how can you say only what was written in the bible is the only truth. If the Church is going to lie to you about the Blessed Mother in oral word, why believe the oral word the Church put in the bible. I mean another wards you either believe what is passed down written and oral or you don’t. I mean same source. That would be like me saying I believe in Matt. but not Luke. Then why believe at all. Its all either the word of God and you trust the Church or you don’t. I see no other way of seeing it. Tradition has never changed its teachings, ITs the same now as it was over 2000 years ago also. Its all revealed throught the Holy Spirit. So how can you separate it, Again its the whole truth nothing but the truth or its not.

 

[rinnie]

Angels come and go, appreared and disappeared at times God saw fit. To Mary at the annunciation, to Joseph in his dreams and their travel to Egypt, to the lowly shepherds at the night Mary gave birth to Jesus, after the temptation of Jesus by the devil … The holy family have had total protection from God during their entire life so that salvation would be carried out. If God could protect them from child murderers and kings as they lived their earthly lives, what’s you (protestants) complaining about what God couldn’t do to Mary personally? From conception to assumption? Full of grace! That’s it. The simplest explanation is in there. Part of God’s love and omnipotence. That’s why Elizabeth exclaimed, " All generations will call her blessed!"

The same thing with Peter. An angel appeared to help him escape from prison so that the purpose of establishing the Church would be carried out. And you (protestants) are protesting all the same…always asking for bible proof, bible proof, bible proof…

Exactly, and it all comes down to faith. You either believe or you don’t. No words or bible are going to change that. If it all came down to just whats written in the bible, and it was all we needed then everyone would believe. Its more then some of the Teachings of Christ.Its All Its the Church, The gift that Jesus left for us the Living Church. If I do not understand the bible cannot teach me, but the Church can. Like the bible said without the teachings and teachers of the Church, you distort the teachings of the bible. You choose what you want things to mean or not mean. You make then fit your ideals. But as Catholics we are taught not to do that. Why because the Pope says, no because the Pope teaches the truth. And the truth never goes against the bible. You will never find proof in the bible you will only find truth. IF proof is in the bible why do all People not believe in God, They always want PROOF they want to see him. Proof is not Faith, and Proof will not be found in the bible. When you have faith, you do not need Proof. You have Grace from God, and when you have enough faith and Grace from God you believe what the teachers of Christ teach you. You again have the Church the living Christ and you demand nothing. You obey the living Christ and try to do your best to do what Our dear Lord asks of you. No one protesting the CC will ever understand that.

 

[rinnie]

Nothing to say in regards, except as always…Scripture is ignored in place of a sinful man. What does the Bible say concerning Mary? No need to answer that question, I already know.

You sure do. And you answered your own question did you not. Scripture is ignored…

 

[NonCatholic]

Allow me to show you where in three cases among others modern day Protestants have erred in their private interpretations of Scripture with regard to the Perpetual Virginity of Mary, which by the way is off topic.

Conerning Matthew 1:18, the expression “to come together” translated from the Greek is never used on thirty occasions in the New Testament to mean sexual relations. So it makes no sense that it would be used as such a euphemism by Matthew in this passage. In fact Matthew uses the verb “to know” when referring to sexual relations in 1:25. The expression “to come together” means “to live together” which does not necessarily imply that Mary and Joesph had conjugal relations after the first stage of their marriage (betrothal) was completed. It was at the beginning of the second stage of the legally contracted marriage that the husband brought his wife to his home where they would live together as a married couple (Mt 1: 20,24). All Matthew is telling us is Mary and Joseph were betrothed (the term when the husband couldn’t take his wife to live with him in his home in accord with Mosaic Law) and at that time before Joseph could take Mary into his home she conceived a child of the Holy Spirit.

Concerning Matthew 13:55-56, James and Joseph are the sons of Mary of Cleopas (Alphaeus). These two brothers can be found in the list of the apostles along with their brother Judas (Thaddeus) and Simon (a Canaanite, not a Nazorean). I doubt Jesus had uterine brothers whose names coincided with those of four of his apostles. You are begging the question by ignoring the list of the apostles. The term “brothers” (adelphos) has a wider meaning reflecting Semitic usage of the term. “Brothers” often refers to extended kin or disciples or both in the New Testament. The same applies to “sisters”.

The word “sister” (adelphe) is used in the Old Testament to refer to female tribal and family members other than siblings. In one instance Rebekah is referred to as “sister” by her own mother.

They (Rebekah’s mother and brother) blessed Rebekah, and said to her, “May you our sister (adelphe = kin) become thousands of ten thousands, and may your descendants possess the gate of those who hate them.”
Genesis 24, 60

The word “sister” (adelphe) does not strictly refer to female siblings in Semitic usage, which the Greek translation in the Septuagint reflects. ‘Achoth’ is the Hebrew word for “sister” derived from ‘ach’ which is the Hebrew word for brother. The Greek word ‘adelphe’ is translated from the Hebrew, so it reflects the Hebraic usage of the word ‘achoth’.

kia eulogisan Rebekkan thn adelfhn autwn kai auth adelfh hmwn ei ginou eiv xiliadev muriadwn kai klhronohmsatw to sperma sou tav poleiv twn upenantiwn twn.
Genesis 24, 60

With regard to Psalm 69, the expression “my mother’s sons” in v.8 should be taken in its primary context, David’s relationship with his siblings, as should the expression “when he commits iniquity, I will chasten him”. Verses 8-9 find a secondary fulfillment in John 1:11: ‘He came to his own, but his own people did not receive him.’ Here we have the expression “his own” [neuter: literally his own property and possession] and “his own people” [the Israelites, who belonged to God as his own chosen possession but nonetheless rejected his Only-begotten Son, the Mesiah]. In this sense it would be accurate to say that the psalm was fulfilled when Jesus (the Messianic King) was rejected by the Jews, his brethren [adelphos] (cf. Isa 53:3; Jn 19:14-16). The idea of siblings having an essential role to play in our salvation is ludicrous. So I doubt the evangelists would even bother to record something as incidental and mundane as a sibling rivalry.

**Very good **“private interpretation”; you should do a word study on the word know. Listen, if God wanted to make sure we knew she was immaculately conceived and remained a virgin. Anything else removes us from the traditional Jewish union; so why would we think otherwise especially since the Scripture is so clear…just read what it says. God would have said so in no uncertain terms if it were different. Look how the RCC has exhaulted Mary right out of the Biblical record. Apply common sense to derive at the obvious.

 

[NonCatholic]

You sure do. And you answered your own question did you not. Scripture is ignored…

Your blindness is astonishing to me. Mary has been exalted by RCC right out of the Biblical record. Just read the plain words of the text and you cannot come to any other conclusion other than they had anormal relations after the birth of Jesus…the passages are not difficult, but you are unable.

 

[ckempston]

Angels come and go, appreared and disappeared at times God saw fit. To Mary at the annunciation, to Joseph in his dreams and their travel to Egypt, to the lowly shepherds at the night Mary gave birth to Jesus, after the temptation of Jesus by the devil … The holy family have had total protection from God during their entire life so that salvation would be carried out. If God could protect them from child murderers and kings as they lived their earthly lives, what’s you (protestants) complaining about what God couldn’t do to Mary personally? From conception to assumption? Full of grace! That’s it. The simplest explanation is in there. Part of God’s love and omnipotence. That’s why Elizabeth exclaimed, " All generations will call her blessed!"

The same thing with Peter. An angel appeared to help him escape from prison so that the purpose of establishing the Church would be carried out. And you (protestants) are protesting all the same…always asking for bible proof, bible proof, bible proof…

This is not the problem for me. God could have very well made Mary sinless, given the Catholic explanation. The PROBLEM is making belief in this dogma a test of one’s Christianity.

 

[rinnie]

Your blindness is astonishing to me. Mary has been exalted by RCC right out of the Biblical record. Just read the plain words of the text and you cannot come to any other conclusion other than they had anormal relations after the birth of Jesus…the passages are not difficult, but you are unable.

Ah I agree with you on one thing.:bowdown2: I am unable. I admit that. That is why I don’t even try. I let the Church which has much more power than I to show me the way, so I will not be lost.

By the way, what are you taking about now. They had anormal relations after the birth of Jesus. Please explain?

 

[ckempston]

How about this, Not all is written, Stick with Tradition also. What is the difference between what is written in the bible and what was not. Funny in the beginning Jesus wrote down nothing. For many many of years all we had was Tradition. How do you explain that one? So in a sense would it all not be Tradition in the beginning? Did not all of the teachings come from the Mouth of Christ. and the Mouth of the Apostles? Tell me where would anyone be without the Church. Because it was here long before the bible. So how can you say only what was written in the bible is the only truth. If the Church is going to lie to you about the Blessed Mother in oral word, why believe the oral word the Church put in the bible. I mean another wards you either believe what is passed down written and oral or you don’t. I mean same source. That would be like me saying I believe in Matt. but not Luke. Then why believe at all. Its all either the word of God and you trust the Church or you don’t. I see no other way of seeing it. Tradition has never changed its teachings, ITs the same now as it was over 2000 years ago also. Its all revealed throught the Holy Spirit. So how can you separate it, Again its the whole truth nothing but the truth or its not.

Where would we be without the Jews? Should we all become Jewish because God entrusted them with his oracles?

 

[NonCatholic]

Ah I agree with you on one thing.:bowdown2: I am unable. I admit that. That is why I don’t even try. I let the Church which has much more power than I to show me the way, so I will not be lost.

By the way, what are you taking about now. They had anormal relations after the birth of Jesus. Please explain?

I may be getting GoodFella and yourself mixed up. I was saying the Biblical record shows that Mary and Joseph had normal marital relations after the birth of Jesus.

I’ve said all that can be said on this topic…as usual we agree to disagree. Thanks Rinnie and GoodFella for the thought provoking exchanges.:clapping: :tiphat:

 

[rinnie]

I may be getting GoodFella and yourself mixed up. I was saying the Biblical record shows that Mary and Joseph had normal marital relations after the birth of Jesus.

I’ve said all that can be said on this topic…as usual we agree to disagree. Thanks Rinnie and GoodFella for the thought provoking exchanges.:clapping: :tiphat:

Thats okay. But Im gonna have to bite on this one. Now can you define NORMAL marital relations for me according to the church. I know this is gonna be good!

 

[rinnie]

Where would we be without the Jews? Should we all become Jewish because God entrusted them with his oracles?

Im not sure what you are asking me here. I think what you are saying you agree with the oral teachings. Am I correct?

 

[ckempston]

Im not sure what you are asking me here. I think what you are saying you agree with the oral teachings. Am I correct?

I’m saying that the Catholic church was certainly used by God to preserve his word. Thanks. But that’s all you’re getting. I’m not going to become Catholic just because the Catholic church helped to preserve the Word any more than I’m going to become Jewish because they preserved the O.T.

 

[ckempston]

Thats okay. But Im gonna have to bite on this one. Now can you define NORMAL marital relations for me according to the church. I know this is gonna be good!

Normal marital relations in Roman Catholicism: Pregnant every 10 months or celibate.

 

[rinnie]

Normal marital relations in Roman Catholicism: Pregnant every 10 months or celibate.

Okay I like that. I will accept that and thank you for sticking up for the Church.

Now as far as the Church’s teaching on birth control. I agree its not easy. But here is a challenge for you. Show me one commandment that Jesus left us thats easy.

And while I agree not all can live up to the teachings of the Church, very few actually. It is still the true teachings.

Thats is the main reason People leave the Church, because it will not change them for anyone. And rather a Priest’s personal opinion agree or disagrees it still must hold to the teachings of Christ not his own. He also has the Grace to know that we may not understand all of Gods rules, but still must obey.

 

[Canto]

Listen, if God wanted to make sure we knew she was immaculately conceived and remained a virgin. …God would have said so in no uncertain terms if it were different. …Apply common sense to derive at the obvious.

If God wanted the Bible to be our sole rule of faith wouln’t he have said so in no uncertain terms and told us what books constitute the bible.

I see nowhere in the New Testament where Jesus give us the full canon.

The Sadducees only accepted the Law (Pentateuch)
The Samaritans accepted the Law
The Pharisees accepted the Law, Prophets and the writings

How do we know Revelation should be in the bible but not Enoch for example.

Just because the Immacualte Conception may not be as plain in scripture as you would like does not mean that it is not there or that it is not true.

Some people read the plain words of the bible and say baptism should be by full immersion, some say you can just sprinkle, some say no water at all and some say no baptism whatsoever. Clearly they can’t all be correctly interpreting scripture.

 

[ckempston]

Okay I like that. I will accept that and thank you for sticking up for the Church.

You’re welcome. At least I’m intellectually honest enough to point out that for most people, NFP is a mortal sin, which I doubt most Catholics realize.

Now as far as the Church’s teaching on birth control. I agree its not easy. But here is a challenge for you. Show me one commandment that Jesus left us thats easy.

Matt 11:29-30 Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.

And while I agree not all can live up to the teachings of the Church, very few actually. It is still the true teachings.

But fortunately, the teachings of Jesus are much easy and light. I bet most Catholics don’t realize that NFP is a mortal sin if you don’t have extremely good reasons for practicing it. I see it talked about constantly as if Catholics have carte blanche to practice it. The “Magesterium” seems to let this slide for some reason.

Thats is the main reason People leave the Church, because it will not change them for anyone. And rather a Priest’s personal opinion agree or disagrees it still must hold to the teachings of Christ not his own. He also has the Grace to know that we may not understand all of Gods rules, but still must obey.

I call them man’s rules, not God’s.

 

[Canto]

Your blindness is astonishing to me. Mary has been exalted by RCC right out of the Biblical record. Just read the plain words of the text and you cannot come to any other conclusion other than they had anormal relations after the birth of Jesus…the passages are not difficult, but you are unable.

You quoted pslam 69 as a source text that Mary had other kids.

69:8 I have become estranged from my brothers And an alien to my mother’s sons.

In verse 5 the person who has become alien to his mother’s sons says “O God, it is You who knows my folly, And my wrongs are not hidden from You.”

Using your plain reading of scripure (since well refuted) it would imply then that Jesus had follies and had comitted wrongs.

read the plain words of the text and you cannot come to any other conclusion…

2 Thes 2:15 stand fast: and hold the traditions, which you have learned, whether by word or by our epistle.

John 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, for the life of the world.52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying: How can this man give us his flesh to eat? 53 Then Jesus said to them: Amen, amen, I say unto you: unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you.

2 Peter 1:20 Understanding this first: That no prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation.

 

[rinnie]

Normal marital relations in Roman Catholicism: Pregnant every 10 months or celibate.

Here is a true story I was told, sad but true. My Mother did it the Catholic way. Had 5 kids and somehow someway made us all think we were her favorite. How she did it is a mystery in itself. Anyway she just told me this 4 years ago BLEW my mind.

She made us feel we were all loved and wanted so much. And we were, but here is the shock, not at first. She told me she had 5 kids and bought 5 cribs. She only wanted 2 kids. Everytime another came she cried. Why God, life is so hard. never enough time or money. But guess what we never knew it, had everything because her and my dad sacrificed. I asked her was Daddy mad, mad she said heck no. His answer was always add another cup of water to the soup. The good Lord know what he’s doing.

Well guess what she told me now, if she could go back she would have 20 kids. They are her only joy in life them and my Dad. She lost my brother almost 5 years ago now and Daddy will be in March. And she thanks God every day for the 4 kids left.

Now go back to old school, you see it every day Mother of 15 kids. they love respect her and she is at the mall happy. With a different kid everyday. They adore her. Christmas grandkids comming out of the woodwork.

Now my Aunt, never wanted kids, used birth control, always knocked my Mom and Dad for having kids. How they never got eachother anything for Christmas. Mind you my Aunt did not want kids, not couldn’t. She just died a couple of months ago very lonely, and told me she regretted her decision her entire life.

Now moral of the story. Who is right God or us. Do we do it our way or Gods way. I myself cannot and will not judge. But I will judge myself and say I wish I would have listened to God more and the church instead of myself. But Im trying to be better every day. Just something to think about is all. And I am sure you are young. Please rememer this story 50 years from now. Not agree with it, just remember it! Thanks for listening.

 

[ckempston]

Here is a true story I was told, sad but true. My Mother did it the Catholic way. Had 5 kids and somehow someway made us all think we were her favorite. How she did it is a mystery in itself. Anyway she just told me this 4 years ago BLEW my mind.

She made us feel we were all loved and wanted so much. And we were, but here is the shock, not at first. She told me she had 5 kids and bought 5 cribs. She only wanted 2 kids. Everytime another came she cried. Why God, life is so hard. never enough time or money. But guess what we never knew it, had everything because her and my dad sacrificed. I asked her was Daddy mad, mad she said heck no. His answer was always add another cup of water to the soup. The good Lord know what he’s doing.

Well guess what she told me now, if she could go back she would have 20 kids. They are her only joy in life them and my Dad. She lost my brother almost 5 years ago now and Daddy will be in March. And she thanks God every day for the 4 kids left.

Now go back to old school, you see it every day Mother of 15 kids. they love respect her and she is at the mall happy. With a different kid everyday. They adore her. Christmas grandkids comming out of the woodwork.

Now my Aunt, never wanted kids, used birth control, always knocked my Mom and Dad for having kids. How they never got eachother anything for Christmas. Mind you my Aunt did not want kids, not couldn’t. She just died a couple of months ago very lonely, and told me she regretted her decision her entire life.

Now moral of the story. Who is right God or us. Do we do it our way or Gods way. I myself cannot and will not judge. But I will judge myself and say I wish I would have listened to God more and the church instead of myself. But Im trying to be better every day. Just something to think about is all. And I am sure you are young. Please rememer this story 50 years from now. Not agree with it, just remember it! Thanks for listening.

Glad that worked out for you. Unfortunately, 90% of the world doesn’t live in a place where you can have an unlimited number of kids and feed and clothe them all. Secondly, what do you tell the family who learns that if a mother has another kid she and the kid will likely both die? The answer from the “Magesterium” is invariably, “Just trust in God,” but you don’t see the Pope taking his own advice when he rides around in an armored vehicle.