Scriptural Evidence: The Immaculate Conception Of Mary

[Mickey]

And that special Grace is what we pray for also, just like she did, to help us to obey God too. And if we pray hard enough we can also receive grace to accept our crosses in life too. And carry them as Mary and Jesus did, with complete trust and compassion for others. Even when we suffer.

Yes. But she was not spared from original sin in the womb of St Anna. And we are not spared original sin either.

 

[Frontline]

The symbols of the woman as Mary

She stands on the moon.
The moon symbolizes change, the cyclic experience of time inherent to our state amplified by the sting of death and sin. She is no longer subject to the state of ‘becoming’ but ruler of that state having conquered it so to speak.
Her Immaculate Conception fits that symbology like a piece that completes a puzzle.

The woman of Rev. Ch. 12 is also rightly seen as the nation of Israel giving birth to Christ. She can be applied to the Church manifesting Christ in the world today. The Woman as Archetype has been all three one for a time and by another always, and by another forever more.

She is bathed in the light of the sun.
She is bathed in the glory of her Divine Son She is in a state of glory. The 12 stars symbolize the 12 apostolic offices Jesus founded and that they surround her head like a crown is a picture of Pentecost and symbol of her queenship

Her being bathed in the glory of Jesus and it’s implication that she is present body and soul points to Her immaculate Conception. The kind of dignity attached to being that Woman would require an equally unique and exclusive priviledge. The Immaculate Conception fits that requirement.

Doesn’t this interpretation cause a problem for the doctrine of the immaculate conception of Mary? The text says that the woman was in pain: “And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.” (Re. 12:2). But this cannot be Mary, since Mary was conceived without original sin. The pain of child-bearing was only experienced as a result of sin (Genesis 3:16). Therefore if Mary was the woman who “cried, travailing in birth and pain” then this would be an unjust application of sorrow - for Mary is supposedly without sin - right? How do you reconcile this seeminly contradiction?

 

[Benadam]

Doesn’t this interpretation cause a problem for the doctrine of the immaculate conception of Mary? The text says that the woman was in pain: “And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.” (Re. 12:2). But this cannot be Mary, since Mary was conceived without original sin. The pain of child-bearing was only experienced as a result of sin (Genesis 3:16). Therefore if Mary was the woman who “cried, travailing in birth and pain” then this would be an unjust application of sorrow - for Mary is supposedly without sin - right? How do you reconcile this seeminly contradiction?

No, because when prphets speak from what they are given they speak from an environment, circumstance, and mentality particular to them. They may not understand some of the deeper meanings attached to what they are describing. They are for generations to come to know. This being so they aren’t perfect descriptions. Not everything the author describes will apply to the deeper meanings contained in the words.

I think the author wanted to convey the archetypical characteristic of Mary as the New Woman.

 

[rinnie]

Yes. But she was not spared from original sin in the womb of St Anna. And we are not spared original sin either.

Oh geez. Mickey if she was saved from Original sin at the moment of her conception where would she have been if not in the womb of St Anna?

Come on Mickey, Is it just me personally or what?

 

[Frontline]

No, because when prphets speak from what they are given they speak from an environment, circumstance, and mentality particular to them. They may not understand some of the deeper meanings attached to what they are describing. They are for generations to come to know. This being so they aren’t perfect descriptions. Not everything the author describes will apply to the deeper meanings contained in the words.

I think the author wanted to convey the archetypical characteristic of Mary as the New Woman.

So did Mary feel birth pains or not?

 

[rinnie]

So did Mary feel birth pains or not?

Nope.:nope: From what I was taught no pains for the Blessed Mother. But she sure got them when Jesus died though. I don’t think anyone in this world ever had that kind of pain.

 

[Canto]

So did Mary feel birth pains or not?

Some have refered to the pains as not the physical pain but the mental anquish of wanting the delivery to be completed a pain shared by others.

Romans 8:22 For we know that every creature groaneth and travaileth in pain, even till now.

Paul uses the same word from memory in Galatians 4:19 when he says “My little children, of whom I am in labour again, until Christ be formed in you.”

As Revelation is full of imagary, I’ve always understood the birth pains as the sword piercing Mary’s soul as prophecised by Simeon.

Did Jesus feel pain on the cross?

 

[Good_Fella]

So did Mary feel birth pains or not?

What we have here in Revelation is an example of polyvalent imagery: one symbol has more than one meaning or referent. The woman in the Apocalypse represents Israel, the Church, Eve, and Mary in a fusion of different aspects pertaining to each referent. The birth pangs of the woman can figuratively refer to Simeon’s propechy: “And a sword shall pierce your own soul too, so that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed” (Lk 2:35). The birth pangs may figuratively refer to Mary’s spiritual suffering, and it may allude to the torments of Israel from whom the Messiah came to us. In either case, we are not to take the experience of birth pangs literally. Mary gave birth to Jesus miraculously just as she had conceived him. Since Mary was conceived preserved free from the stain of original sin, she was spared the twofold curse of Eve: birth pangs and the corruption of death. Her Assumption is alluded to in Revelation 11:19, 12:1. Luke reveals that the first Christians perceived Mary as a type of undefiled ark of the Covenant.

 

[Frontline]

What we have here in Revelation is an example of polyvalent imagery: one symbol has more than one meaning or referent. The woman in the Apocalypse represents Israel, the Church, Eve, and Mary in a fusion of different aspects pertaining to each referent. The birth pangs of the woman can figuratively refer to Simeon’s propechy: “And a sword shall pierce your own soul too, so that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed” (Lk 2:35). The birth pangs may figuratively refer to Mary’s spiritual suffering, and it may allude to the torments of Israel from whom the Messiah came to us. In either case, we are not to take the experience of birth pangs literally. Mary gave birth to Jesus miraculously just as she had conceived him. Since Mary was conceived preserved free from the stain of original sin, she was spared the twofold curse of Eve: birth pangs and the corruption of death. Her Assumption is alluded to in Revelation 11:19, 12:1. Luke reveals that the first Christians perceived Mary as a type of undefiled ark of the Covenant.

Hey thanks!

So was it necessary for Mary to be sinless?

I mean, if she was not sinless, could Christ still have been born without sin?

 

[rinnie]

Hey thanks!

So was it necessary for Mary to be sinless?

I mean, if she was not sinless, could Christ still have been born without sin?

Not according to what the protestants say, That is why they say Mary Had original sin because of her Mother and Father. That was another point that proves the RCC.

 

[Halos1n2Horns]

In the Catechism under Immaculate conception, It tells ya about mary and her stain from original sin, which brings us all back to our baptism. we were born with original sin ( its the sin when we were concieved) Mary was to but god took it from her making her stained from original sin after she was born , God removed from her spirit the sin that she was born with and thats why the church says she was concieved with out sin.

Under pope pious IX it says

The most Blessed Virgin Mary was, from the first moment of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege of almighty God and by virture of the merits of Jesus Christ, Savor of the human race,preserved immune from all stain of original sin.

unique holiness.
and by the grace of God Mary remained free of every personal sin her whole life long.

Hope this helps.

hail Mary full of Grace, The lord is with thee, Blessed are thou among woman and blessed is the fruit of thy womb Jesus, Holy Mary mother of God Pray for us now and at the hour of our death. amen

 

[rinnie]

In the Catechism under Immaculate conception, It tells ya about mary and her stain from original sin, which brings us all back to our baptism. we were born with original sin ( its the sin when we were concieved) Mary was to but god took it from her making her stained from original sin after she was born , God removed from her spirit the sin that she was born with and thats why the church says she was concieved with out sin.

Under pope pious IX it says

The most Blessed Virgin Mary was, from the first moment of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege of almighty God and by virture of the merits of Jesus Christ, Savor of the human race,preserved immune from all stain of original sin.

unique holiness.
and by the grace of God Mary remained free of every personal sin her whole life long.

Hope this helps.

hail Mary full of Grace, The lord is with thee, Blessed are thou among woman and blessed is the fruit of thy womb Jesus, Holy Mary mother of God Pray for us now and at the hour of our death. amen

Not to de-rail the thread but I was taught the moment of conception was when Mary was saved from original sin. And I was taught that is before you are born. So the stain of original sin was removed even before she was born into this world. Either way she was still sinless, but at conception proves she never had sin in this world at all. Just a thought!

 

[NonCatholic]

The symbols of the woman as Mary

She stands on the moon.
The moon symbolizes change, the cyclic experience of time inherent to our state amplified by the sting of death and sin. She is no longer subject to the state of ‘becoming’ but ruler of that state having conquered it so to speak.
Her Immaculate Conception fits that symbology like a piece that completes a puzzle.

The woman of Rev. Ch. 12 is also rightly seen as the nation of Israel giving birth to Christ. She can be applied to the Church manifesting Christ in the world today. The Woman as Archetype has been all three one for a time and by another always, and by another forever more.

She is bathed in the light of the sun.
She is bathed in the glory of her Divine Son She is in a state of glory. The 12 stars symbolize the 12 apostolic offices Jesus founded and that they surround her head like a crown is a picture of Pentecost and symbol of her queenship

Her being bathed in the glory of Jesus and it’s implication that she is present body and soul points to Her immaculate Conception. The kind of dignity attached to being that Woman would require an equally unique and exclusive priviledge. The Immaculate Conception fits that requirement.

Look at Genesis 37:9 and in context it will read as follows:
Genesis 37:5-11 5 Then Joseph had a dream, and when he told it to his brothers, they hated him even more. 6 He said to them, “Please listen to this dream which I have had; 7 for behold, we were binding sheaves in the field, and lo, my sheaf rose up and also stood erect; and behold, your sheaves gathered around and bowed down to my sheaf.” 8 Then his brothers said to him, “Are you actually going to reign over us? Or are you really going to rule over us?” So they hated him even more for his dreams and for his words. 9 Now he had still another dream, and related it to his brothers, and said, "Lo, I have had still another dream; and behold, the sun and the moon and eleven stars were bowing down to me." 10 He related {it} to his father and to his brothers; and his father rebuked him and said to him, “What is this dream that you have had? Shall I and your mother and your brothers actually come to bow ourselves down before you to the ground?” 11 His brothers were jealous of him, but his father kept the saying {in mind.}

Revelation 12:6-7 Then the woman fled into the wilderness where she ***had a place prepared by God, so that there she would be nourished for one thousand two hundred and sixty days. **7 And there was war in heaven, Michael and his angels waging war with the dragon.

This is significant in understanding the passage: During the 7 year tribulation, God said if it had not been shortened (3.5 years - Daniel), then…? 1260 days is exactly 3.5 years by one Jewish calendar, which is a 360 day year…1260/360=3.5years…this is no coincidence, this is speaking of the Great Tribulation and of the nation of Israel.

In relation to the term woman, I hope you find this as interesting as I do. There are four symbolic women in Revelation. So there is Jezebel, a woman who represents paganism. There is the scarlet woman who represents the apostate church. There is the wife of the Lamb, the bride who represents the true church. And here we have the fourth and that is a woman who represents something else Israel…Israel. Israel is depicted frequently as the wife of God, a disloyal wife, an unfaithful wife, an adulterous wife, but in the end God will bring her back to faithfulness. She, Israel, is throughout the Old Testament the wife of God. So Israel is symbolized as a woman, which is important to understand the passage.

Getting back to the main passage: the woman is clothed with the sun speaks of glory and brilliance and dignity, that is the unique glory, the unique brilliance, the unique dignity of a redeemed Israel that is going to be lifted up and exalted in the end (Romans 9:4). The moon under her feet, interesting to think about that. It could refer to nothing more than exaltation, but it also could have the concept of covenant relationship there, since the moon was so central in the nations cycle of worship, Israel worshiped in their yearly cycle through a series of new moons and feasts and festivals and Sabbaths associated with them.

On her head a crown of twelve stars, this kind of crown is a stephanos, a wreath, a garland, a crown associated with suffering and struggle. Who has struggled more than Israel? And the twelve stars that make up that garland obviously refer to the twelve tribes.

**Some have suggested **that this woman here in Revelation 12 represents the church. No where in the Bible is the church ever called a wife. No where in the Bible is the church ever called a woman. When the church is spoken of in feminine terms, the church is always called a bride. She doesn’t become a wife until the marriage supper of the Lamb in chapter 19 of Revelation, she is always a bride. She is never a woman, she is never a wife. And she is a chaste virgin, 2 Corinthians 11:2 says, she is a bride waiting for the marriage. You see that in the statements of Revelation chapter 19.

This is so interesting and rich and a lot more could be said as well.

 

[rinnie]

Look at Genesis 37:9 and in context it will read as follows:
Genesis 37:5-11 5 Then Joseph had a dream, and when he told it to his brothers, they hated him even more. 6 He said to them, “Please listen to this dream which I have had; 7 for behold, we were binding sheaves in the field, and lo, my sheaf rose up and also stood erect; and behold, your sheaves gathered around and bowed down to my sheaf.” 8 Then his brothers said to him, “Are you actually going to reign over us? Or are you really going to rule over us?” So they hated him even more for his dreams and for his words. 9 Now he had still another dream, and related it to his brothers, and said, "Lo, I have had still another dream; and behold, the sun and the moon and eleven stars were bowing down to me." 10 He related {it} to his father and to his brothers; and his father rebuked him and said to him, “What is this dream that you have had? Shall I and your mother and your brothers actually come to bow ourselves down before you to the ground?” 11 His brothers were jealous of him, but his father kept the saying {in mind.}

Revelation 12:6-7 Then the woman fled into the wilderness where she ***had a place prepared by God, so that there she would be nourished for one thousand two hundred and sixty days. **7 And there was war in heaven, Michael and his angels waging war with the dragon.

This is significant in understanding the passage: During the 7 year tribulation, God said if it had not been shortened (3.5 years - Daniel), then…? 1260 days is exactly 3.5 years by one Jewish calendar, which is a 360 day year…1260/360=3.5years…this is no coincidence, this is speaking of the Great Tribulation and of the nation of Israel.

In relation to the term woman, I hope you find this as interesting as I do. There are four symbolic women in Revelation. So there is Jezebel, a woman who represents paganism. There is the scarlet woman who represents the apostate church. There is the wife of the Lamb, the bride who represents the true church. And here we have the fourth and that is a woman who represents something else Israel…Israel. Israel is depicted frequently as the wife of God, a disloyal wife, an unfaithful wife, an adulterous wife, but in the end God will bring her back to faithfulness. She, Israel, is throughout the Old Testament the wife of God. So Israel is symbolized as a woman, which is important to understand the passage.

Getting back to the main passage: the woman is clothed with the sun speaks of glory and brilliance and dignity, that is the unique glory, the unique brilliance, the unique dignity of a redeemed Israel that is going to be lifted up and exalted in the end (Romans 9:4). The moon under her feet, interesting to think about that. It could refer to nothing more than exaltation, but it also could have the concept of covenant relationship there, since the moon was so central in the nations cycle of worship, Israel worshiped in their yearly cycle through a series of new moons and feasts and festivals and Sabbaths associated with them.

On her head a crown of twelve stars, this kind of crown is a stephanos, a wreath, a garland, a crown associated with suffering and struggle. Who has struggled more than Israel? And the twelve stars that make up that garland obviously refer to the twelve tribes.

**Some have suggested **that this woman here in Revelation 12 represents the church. No where in the Bible is the church ever called a wife. No where in the Bible is the church ever called a woman. When the church is spoken of in feminine terms, the church is always called a bride. She doesn’t become a wife until the marriage supper of the Lamb in chapter 19 of Revelation, she is always a bride. She is never a woman, she is never a wife. And she is a chaste virgin, 2 Corinthians 11:2 says, she is a bride waiting for the marriage. You see that in the statements of Revelation chapter 19.

This is so interesting and rich and a lot more could be said as well.

I always thought that when someone was a wife she was also a bride. I have never heard anyone say this is my bride if not married. I have heard my bride to be. Bride means someone married or about to be married. But the point is the same, married or about to be. A women and it is always a women where I have been, has never truely became a Bride until she was married. I have always heard she will make a beautiful Bride before marriage. But after Marriage isn’t she a beautiful Bride. And in the Church, at least every church I have been Bride has been a women.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

So did Mary feel birth pains or not?

Hi Frontline; I like your posts they are truthfully forthcoming. The prophet Isaiah believes in the immaculate conception of Mary.

 Isaiah 66: 7 Before she comes to labor, she gives birth; Before the pains come upon her, she safely delivers a male child. 8 Who ever heard of such a thing, or saw the like? 9 Shall I bring a mother to the point of birth, and yet not let her child be born? says the LORD; Or shall I who allow her to conceive, yet close her womb? says your God. 10 Rejoice with Jerusalem and be glad because of her, all you who love her; Exult, exult with her,

The Labor pains in Revelation reveals an eternal explanation of Mary and the Catholic church both experience Labor pains in giving birth to her Children, which are those coming into the baptismal waters which history records Mary suffered these birth pains at the crucifixion. The church experiences her birth pains through her martyrs, saints and baptismals. Scripture reveals who are the true children of Mary and the Catholic church, who suffer violence by these birth pains.

Revelation 12:17
Then the dragon became angry with the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring, those who keep God’s commandments and bear witness to Jesus.

The birth pains are still being felt by our Blessed Mother Mary by the persecution of the evil one, which Iam happy to announce through test and trials the Catholic church will remain victoriously in life or in death until Jesus returns for his bride.

Iam sorry to be generalizing these texts that deserve much detail description, and explain alot more of what is taken place from the eternals describing spiritual realities.

Peace be with you

 

[Frontline]

Some have suggested

that this woman here in Revelation 12 represents the church. No where in the Bible is the church ever called a wife.

Hey thanks!

Very interesting post . . .

But what about Ephesians 5:23-32?

For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. 24 Therefore just as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing. 25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for her; 26 That he might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word, 27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. 28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself. 29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church: 30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. 31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. 32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

Also - does not the apostle Paul tell us that there is but “one church” ?? Does this not mean that all who are in Christ - Jews and Gentiles, from Adam to the last believer - are a part of this “one Church” ??

I believe that the Woman in Revelation 12 is “the people of God” and obviously, this lineage is mostly but not exclusively Jewish. We know that when we look at the geneologies of Jesus, we see that he had some great grandmothers who were Gentiles.

So the best way to interpret this passage is to say that she represents the Old Testament elect people of God, not exclusively Jews after the flesh. Clearly the seed principle from Genesis 3 is a spiritual seed-line, and not mere physical descent.

 

[Frontline]

Not according to what the protestants say, That is why they say Mary Had original sin because of her Mother and Father. That was another point that proves the RCC.

I not sure how that proves the Catholic position.

So if Mary was not sinless, could Christ still have been born without sin?

 

[NonCatholic]

Hey thanks!

Very interesting post . . .

But what about Ephesians 5:23-32?

For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. 24 Therefore just as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing. 25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for her; 26 That he might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word, 27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. 28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself. 29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church: 30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. 31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. 32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

Also - does not the apostle Paul tell us that there is but “one church” ?? Does this not mean that all who are in Christ - Jews and Gentiles, from Adam to the last believer - are a part of this “one Church” ??

I believe that the Woman in Revelation 12 is “the people of God” and obviously, this lineage is mostly but not exclusively Jewish. We know that when we look at the genealogies of Jesus, we see that he had some great grandmothers who were Gentiles.

So the best way to interpret this passage is to say that she represents the Old Testament elect people of God, not exclusively Jews after the flesh. Clearly the seed principle from Genesis 3 is a spiritual seed-line, and not mere physical descent.

What about Ephesians 5:23-32? The wife is the earthly wives we have if were male an married. The comparison is to give God’s moral standard of our marital relationships.

Revelation 12 is the nation of Israel…she has yet to be joined, betrothed, but not united yet, but with the promise to be united in the end. Plus the reference to the Great tribulation, in which Israel’s eyes will be open and the fleeing to the hills where God has prepared “a safe haven” during the tribulation…all points to Israel.

 

[rinnie]

I not sure how that proves the Catholic position.

So if Mary was not sinless, could Christ still have been born without sin?

Here is my point. We all know Jesus was perfect without sin, Agreed. But it is said on every site about the Blessed Mother that she could not have been sinless because her Parents had sin. So she had to have been born into this world with sin. Now if the Blessed Mother had to be born of sin, because of her parents then so would Jesus right? See my point?

 

[rinnie]

To prove my point a little better, the Blessed Mother was saved from sin long before the Angel came to her. So we know Jesus had a mother who was completely free from sin before she became with Child.