Scriptural Evidence: The Immaculate Conception Of Mary

[rinnie]

Glad that worked out for you. Unfortunately, 90% of the world doesn’t live in a place where you can have an unlimited number of kids and feed and clothe them all. Secondly, what do you tell the family who learns that if a mother has another kid she and the kid will likely both die? The answer from the “Magesterium” is invariably, “Just trust in God,” but you don’t see the Pope taking his own advice when he rides around in an armored vehicle.

Do you really think that if God wants the Pope to come home an armored car is going to save him. Thats just like telling a person who need surgery not to listen to the Dr and just let God cure him. The Catholic Church does not operate that way. The Catholic Church teaches us to use every ordinary means of measure to live as long as we can. It does not say we must have the surgery, but it says if it can save your life you should.

 

[Peter_J]

Listen, if God wanted to make sure we knew she was immaculately conceived and remained a virgin. …God would have said so in no uncertain terms if it were different.

Don’t you think there are some things which are true, but not “essential” to living as a Christian?

If God wanted the Bible to be our sole rule of faith wouldn’t he have said so in no uncertain terms

BAM! (To quote a certain chef.)

 

[Peter_J]

ckempston,

You’ve made some good points about birth control, but I think it would be better if you start a new thread to discuss them.

 

[Peter_J]

I’m saying that the Catholic church was certainly used by God to preserve his word. Thanks.

You’re welcome.

This is not the problem for me. God could have very well made Mary sinless, given the Catholic explanation. The PROBLEM is making belief in this dogma a test of one’s Christianity.

The question is, what sort of problem?

You, presumably, would say (as would the Orthodox) that Pope Pius IX didn’t have the authority to dogmatically define the Immaculate Conception.

I would say that he did have the authority to dogmatically define it, but it would have been better not to do so.

 

[rinnie]

Glad that worked out for you. Unfortunately, 90% of the world doesn’t live in a place where you can have an unlimited number of kids and feed and clothe them all. Secondly, what do you tell the family who learns that if a mother has another kid she and the kid will likely both die? The answer from the “Magesterium” is invariably, “Just trust in God,” but you don’t see the Pope taking his own advice when he rides around in an armored vehicle.

Also no offense, but what makes you think that my Dad and Mom did not feel that way also. Do you think they had it any easier than us. Trust me, back then it was worse. When I hear how it really was I am like wow. And back then look at granny. No SS for granny. The kids had to take care of her too, or she starved. She had to live with the kids. No homes for granny. Only your home or mine. Trust me life is not easy and will never be.

And what do I tell anyone when they have hard questions in life. The same as the Pope Pray pray pray for God to give you the grace to know what to do. You must remember the Pope only has the power of the HS to teach the word of God. His opinion is like ours, he is human. He has never claimed not the church that he is perfect.

 

[ckempston]

Do you really think that if God wants the Pope to come home an armored car is going to save him. Thats just like telling a person who need surgery not to listen to the Dr and just let God cure him. The Catholic Church does not operate that way. The Catholic Church teaches us to use every ordinary means of measure to live as long as we can. It does not say we must have the surgery, but it says if it can save your life you should.

No, I don’t think the armored car is going to save him, and that’s the point. Your first statement completely supports my contention that there is an inconsistency here. Regular Joes are told to entrust their lives to God while the big guy gets a pass.

 

[ckempston]

You’re welcome.

The question is, what sort of problem?

You, presumably, would say (as would the Orthodox) that Pope Pius IX didn’t have the authority to dogmatically define the Immaculate Conception.

I would say that he did have the authority to dogmatically define it, but it would have been better not to do so.

And that’s your personal intepretation.

 

[ckempston]

Also no offense, but what makes you think that my Dad and Mom did not feel that way also. Do you think they had it any easier than us. Trust me, back then it was worse. When I hear how it really was I am like wow. And back then look at granny. No SS for granny. The kids had to take care of her too, or she starved. She had to live with the kids. No homes for granny. Only your home or mine. Trust me life is not easy and will never be.

None taken, and no, I don’t think they had it easier than us. What we see as hard, they just saw as part of life. Every generation has to play with the hand it is dealt.

And what do I tell anyone when they have hard questions in life. The same as the Pope Pray pray pray for God to give you the grace to know what to do. You must remember the Pope only has the power of the HS to teach the word of God. His opinion is like ours, he is human. He has never claimed not the church that he is perfect.

This isn’t a “hard question.” The Catholic church has taken the liberty to decide for us. There is no praying for grace to know what to do, because the only right thing to do is to listen to the Magesterium. There is no sense in praying, unless you pray to change your mind. You either do it, or you don’t. If you do, you’re all good. If you don’t, you’re going to hell. Pretty simple.

 

[Peter_J]

And that’s your personal intepretation.

I would have said “personal opinion”, but okay.

 

[Peter_J]

Secondly, what do you tell the family who learns that if a mother has another kid she and the kid will likely both die? The answer from the “Magesterium” is invariably, “Just trust in God,” but you don’t see the Pope taking his own advice when he rides around in an armored vehicle.

No, I don’t think the armored car is going to save him, and that’s the point. Your first statement completely supports my contention that there is an inconsistency here. Regular Joes are told to entrust their lives to God while the big guy gets a pass.

ckempston,

Please give me the names and addresses of the clergymen who have been giving people that advice, so I can send one of the old-school nuns to give them a good hard slap.

(Assuming it’s even clergymen you’re talking about. Please tell me this isn’t another one of those “A Catholic on the internet said this, so it must be representative of Catholicism” things that Protestants love to do?)

 

[ckempston]

I would have said “personal opinion”, but okay.

Is there a difference?

 

[rinnie]

ckempston,

Please give me the names and addresses of the clergymen who have been giving people that advice, so I can send one of the old-school nuns to give them a good hard slap.

(Assuming it’s even clergymen you’re talking about. Please tell me this isn’t another one of those “A Catholic on the internet said this, so it must be representative of Catholicism” things that Protestants love to do?)

Oh peter J You and I don’t always see eye to eye. But the old school nuns. Priceless, I gotta give it to you for that one,

 

[fbl9]

**Very good **“private interpretation”; you should do a word study on the word know. Listen, if God wanted to make sure we knew she was immaculately conceived and remained a virgin. Anything else removes us from the traditional Jewish union; so why would we think otherwise especially since the Scripture is so clear…just read what it says. God would have said so in no uncertain terms if it were different. Look how the RCC has exhaulted Mary right out of the Biblical record. Apply common sense to derive at the obvious.

What makes you think God didn’t let us know the facts about Mary…His Church has made it it clear what the deal is with Mary.

 

[pegchiu]

This is a very good thread.

TKS.

 

[OneTrueCathApos]

**As you can expect, “NonCatholic” has left the thread a long time ago because he cannot answer all the threads here in defense of the Blessed Virgin. I always notice when a Protestant leaves, it only means he has no answers or cannot answer any questions coming from Catholics. **

 

[rinnie]

None taken, and no, I don’t think they had it easier than us. What we see as hard, they just saw as part of life. Every generation has to play with the hand it is dealt.

This isn’t a “hard question.” The Catholic church has taken the liberty to decide for us. There is no praying for grace to know what to do, because the only right thing to do is to listen to the Magesterium. There is no sense in praying, unless you pray to change your mind. You either do it, or you don’t. If you do, you’re all good. If you don’t, you’re going to hell. Pretty simple.

Actually the CC did not take the liberty to decide for us Jesus did. There is nothing in the RCC that goes against the teachings of the bible. And there is always sense in praying. pray that we can obey the commandments that God left for us. And pray that more and more People will come back to Church and obey the Church. The church is not here to agree with you, the Church is here for one reason to teach and help save your soul. So you can get into heaven. The Church is not here to hurt you, or keep you away from God. It is here to get you closer and show you how.

 

[Frontline]

If God took with him enoch implying he did not die, and if elijah was lifted up in a flaming chariot and horses to heaven alive, is it wrong for God to free the Mother of his Son from sin? to be a perfect tabernacle for his Son?

Of course not - God can do whatever He wishes.

The question is not whether it would be wrong for God to keep Mary from sin, but rather the question is whether He actually did keep Mary from sin. Do you have any proof that He did?

Also - I have an honest question:

Do Catholics see the woman in Revelation 12 as a picture of the Church (the elect people of God), Mary, or both, because Mary is a part of the people of God? And if Catholics do see the woman in Revelation 12 as Mary, then what effect does that interpretation have on the doctrine of the immaculate conception of Mary?

 

[Good_Fella]

Of course not - God can do whatever He wishes.

The question is not whether it would be wrong for God to keep Mary from sin, but rather the question is whether He actually did keep Mary from sin. Do you have any proof that He did?

Also - I have an honest question:

Do Catholics see the woman in Revelation 12 as a picture of the Church (the elect people of God), Mary, or both, because Mary is a part of the people of God? And if Catholics do see the woman in Revelation 12 as Mary, then what effect does that interpretation have on the doctrine of the immaculate conception of Mary?

What do you mean by “proof”? That Jesus has founded the one visible universal Church on Peter and the Apostles and has promised to send the Paraclete to guide her in all truth until he returns? The Church is the final authority and arbiter of the divine truth, not the Bible (1 Tim 3:15). If it were, then the Protestant tradition wouldn’t be a divided house in matters of faith and morals. A central Apostolic teaching authority is needed for the purpose of making definitive and explict what is implicitly revealed in the scriptures. Hence, Jesus established his Church. Scripture must be interpreted in light of Apostolic Tradition.

Luke typifies Mary as the new ark of the Covenant. in the Apocalypse John has a vision of the ark which immediately is followed by the vision of the woman. Mary was assumed into heaven and spared the corruption of death after she died because, not unlike the ark of the Old Covenant, she was pure and undefiled - preserved free from the stain of original sin. The Immaculate Conception of Mary is implicitly revealed in Scripture.

PAX :harp:

 

[Benadam]

Of course not - God can do whatever He wishes.

The question is not whether it would be wrong for God to keep Mary from sin, but rather the question is whether He actually did keep Mary from sin. Do you have any proof that He did?

Also - I have an honest question:

Do Catholics see the woman in Revelation 12 as a picture of the Church (the elect people of God), Mary, or both, because Mary is a part of the people of God? And if Catholics do see the woman in Revelation 12 as Mary, then what effect does that interpretation have on the doctrine of the immaculate conception of Mary?

The symbols of the woman as Mary

She stands on the moon.
The moon symbolizes change, the cyclic experience of time inherent to our state amplified by the sting of death and sin. She is no longer subject to the state of ‘becoming’ but ruler of that state having conquered it so to speak.
Her Immaculate Conception fits that symbology like a piece that completes a puzzle.

The woman of Rev. Ch. 12 is also rightly seen as the nation of Israel giving birth to Christ. She can be applied to the Church manifesting Christ in the world today. The Woman as Archetype has been all three one for a time and by another always, and by another forever more.

She is bathed in the light of the sun.
She is bathed in the glory of her Divine Son She is in a state of glory. The 12 stars symbolize the 12 apostolic offices Jesus founded and that they surround her head like a crown is a picture of Pentecost and symbol of her queenship

Her being bathed in the glory of Jesus and it’s implication that she is present body and soul points to Her immaculate Conception. The kind of dignity attached to being that Woman would require an equally unique and exclusive priviledge. The Immaculate Conception fits that requirement.

 

[rinnie]

And also if I may add, Catholics see her as the new Eve. Because Eve is who brought sin into this world, she disobeyed God. But Mary brought us a Savior, her Son who took sin back out of the world. Mary was the perfect example of obeying God. She never questioned him. She watched her Son, die on the cross,and never once questioned God. She had that much faith in him. She never turned or doubted him. That is why we love her so much, she is our hope. How could things get any worse for us then she had. But she trusted God, thats why we learn from her. If she could trust God that much, we pray that we can also. Because alot of Protestants love to point out she was human, Yes she was, She had every emotion we do. She felt happy, sad, everything. But she had special grace from God.

And that special Grace is what we pray for also, just like she did, to help us to obey God too. And if we pray hard enough we can also receive grace to accept our crosses in life too. And carry them as Mary and Jesus did, with complete trust and compassion for others. Even when we suffer.