I was the one who said it. I pointed out that all Catholic Doctrine is based upon the person and teaching of Jesus, and was delivered whole and entire to the Apostles, prior to a word of the NT being written. The NT reflects Jesus’ Teaching but it is not the Source of it.
That’s fine. (Actually, I think that was implied by nbtb’s statement. Not that it matters anyhow.)
Now that’s really silly, rinnie. You could say that about a whole lot of people in the Bible!
I’m sorry, I was just quoting Guanophore.
You asked, “Really? Where does it say that in the Holy Writings?”Yes and no. Catholics do not go “looking” for divine revelation. We “receive” it from the Apostles. Jesus entrusted everything to them, and they entrusted it to faithful men, who were able to teach others also. Some of this revelation was written down in what we now call the New Testament. This collection of documents was never intended to be the entire compendium of the faith. If it were, Jesus would not have appointed pastors and teachers.
Really? Where does it say that in the Holy Writings?
Really? How did God see to that?
On the contrary, this was written by a Catholic, for Catholics.
Scripture is profitable. But the duty of teaching, rebuking, and training in rigtheousness He gave to the Church, starting with the Apostles. He charged them to “teach all that I have commanded”. Scripture is profitable for this, but one must keep in mind, when that directive was given by Christ, and when the above verse was written, there was no NT. That means they used the OT.
I doubt any modern Christian could live a good Christian life with only the OT. However, that is what they did, until the canon was formed in 382. How? They listened to their pastors and teachers, who trained them in the way they should go, so they could be thoroughly equipped.
I agree that what the Apostles taught about being born again has been grossly distorted amongst our separated brethren. So much so that it is often said here that baptism has nothing to do with water!
The Apostles would be hoppin up and down!
But, you see, Catholics have always been devoted to the Apostles teaching, before, during, and after the scripture was written. We need not try to distill doctrines in a vaccuum, because Jesus preserved the Gospel just as He gave it to the Church. T’he NT reflects our beliefs, but the Source is Jesus.
No, it does not. That verse says that scripture is profitable, which is certainly true. It does NOT say it contains everything we need.
I agree. I think that the church dealt with this heresy at the Council of Jerusalem, and in the response to Pelagian.
No, I think not. I think that you are confusing obedience to Christ with OT “law” or something. You have already made it clear that you do not understand what the Catholic Church teaches, so it stands to reason that you will make harsh and inaccurate judgemental statements.
Not really mbtb NC said that because Mary said that she also needed a Savior was proof she was a sinner. I said no it does not. To show me one place in the bible where she had sinned or be accused of it.
Most Evangelicals don’t read the history of the early church, and do not know the source of the Marian doctrines, which emerged out of combat with heretics about the nature of Jesus. Between the Gnostics and the Arians, the Church had to work hard to define what the hypostatic union was all about. The Marian doctrines are just corollaries from this.
No one ever said all knowledge is contained in Scripture.NC, if you wish to remain on CAF, then I strongly suggest that you watch your tone. It is required here to respect the Catholic faith. You don’t have to agree, just be courteous.
Although I have never found a human mind that did not need washing by the Word of God, I think your reference is meant to be a derogatory remark about Catholic Teaching.
You are right, though, we are limited by Catholic Teaching.We are constrained by the Apostolic Faith from wandering into heresies.
No, this is not the case. The Bible was never intended to be a complete compendium of all that needs to be said about the faith. If it were, God would not have appointed pastors and teachers.
I do hope you come to love this in truth, since you seem to be steeped in a tradition that has made an idol out of the Bible. In fact, Jesus Christ does sand above all as the Supreme Authority. He was supreme before, during, and after the Bible was written. He does stand above all else.
Catholics love scripture, we just accept that Scripture cannot be an “authority” because authority requires accountability, and is germaine to persons, not books. What bible christians do is become their own authority, or accept another man made tradition as authority, thinking unwittingly that they are under the authority of the bible.
You are tryint to ascribe to scripture qualities that scripture does not have. In order to be fallible, first, one must be a person, and then one must be capable of action. One must have will, decision making ability, and enactment. Scripture has none of these qualities. The same is true for authority. Authority must be capable of obedience. The scripture cannot “obey” because it is not a person. This is the greatest problem with Sola Scriptura - expecting scripture to do things it cannot, nor ever was intended to do.
I agree that scripture has special qualities that can be found nowhere else. Unfortunately, the qualities you are trying to assign to it, Jesus gave to the Church.
It is good to know that you can at least agree that the immaculate conception is possible for God to do. However, since not all of God’s revelation is limited to Scripture, and you don’t have access to the rest, you are in error that God has not chosen to reveal this.
It is not some “other” revelation, but the other half which the Reformers jettisoned. they were trying to purge corruption, and ended up cutting themselves off from a significant part of what God has revealed.
Just goes to show that 1) Not all knowledge is contained in scripture 2) there are things that NC does not know.
Mary was a human, conceived in the natural human manner (sexual relations) but God preserved her immediately from original sin. In this manner, she was created like Eve, so that she could be the new mother of all the living.
The hierarchy in the Bible is nothing like the Catholic church’s. There are Pastors and deacons in the Bible. If that is an hierarchy, then it stops there; the rest is a man made invention designed to control the subordinates mind and pocketbook.
Both of you missed the point here.
No, but they claim that all that is necessary to salvation is contained there, and that it is the sole and final authority for right doctrine and practice. This is a departure from the Apostolic Teaching.
Such a notion is absurd. Fallibility requires the ability to act. Right action requires discernment, judgement, accountability and will. None of these are qualities of Scripture. Scripture cannot “act” therefore, it is not capable of “fallibility”.
This is what you have been taught from your anti-Catholic sources. But, there is much more in Scripture than pasters and deacons. That is grist for another thread. Shall I start one for us?
No. Adoration is reserved for God alone. And, at that time, none of them realized that He was God. They did respect Him as a rabbi, and honored (venerated) Him.
From a human point of view, perhaps, but from God’s point of view, the fact that she heard the word of God, an obeyed it was an even greater blessing.
Being blessed does not make one God, or worthy of adoration, which is reserved for God.
It is very Catholic of you to say that!
When are you going to enroll in RCIA?
Yes.
So, clarify this for me. Does the Catholic church teach that the Word of the living God is or isn’t infallible concerning the rule of faith and practice?
Hello,
Thank you, that’s what I ought to have said, rather than simply “Yes”. The bible isn’t infallible in e.g. matters of science; but it is infallible with regard to the faith. (Same with the Ecumenical Councils and the ex cathedra papal statements.)