scripture and homosexuality

[feetxxxl]

When we are talking about Natural Law, it is not my law, but observable law of what is natural. The reproductive organs of a man and woman were made for each other. The reproductive organ of a man was not made for the evacuation organs of another man.

Of course it’s been explained. You choose to reject the obvious. Homosexual acts are sinful, both in Divine and Natural Law.

IF ITS BEEN EXPLAINED THEN PLEASE GIVE THE COMMENT NUMBERS SO I CAN SEE WHAT I MISSED.

 

[Newbie2]

my understanding about matthew 19 is based on 19:11-12. no one knows who has been given the word of the depth jesus calls us to in marriage, let alone a male female one flesh relationship.

even those who have been given it, if they cannot accept, then they shouldn’t.

my understanding is that jesus is explaining the possibilities of spirit when we take seriously our wedding vows, which means putting him in the center of the marriage.

to those who are unable, lose out in the fruit that would have come from that relationship, as well as spiritual growth and the possibility of knowing him in the relationship.

There ya go, “your understanding”. Much different that what the Church teaches, feet, much different.

 

[peary]

Originally Posted by **feetxxxl **
PEARY…THEN THAT IS YOUR WITNESS.

the problem is. your witness is without fellowship, and therefore without walking in the light.

“if we walk in the light as he is in the light we have fellowship with one another…”

**Part of the spiritual works of mercy is to counsel the ignorant. Well, at least we try. **

 

[Elric]

Look, you guys can do whatever you want and argue it with whatever twisted doctrines you want, but on the last day there is a final authority, and his name is Jesus Christ. Jesus entrusted his teaching authority to the catholic church, which does in fact teach many things that arent in the bible.

The church does indeed teach many things not in the bible. But it has been known to change its teachings from time to time, usually when they have a better understanding of things.

The reality is that we dont know a huge ammount about homosexuality and why some people are homosexual. The term “homosexual” was only created in the 19th centuary and research into homosexuality started around the 1950’s, so it really is in its infant stages.

Homosexuals can argue whatever they like, but on the last day there is a final authority and it will be worse for them because others tried to explain their errors but they persisted in their sin.

I really hope that you mean “homosexual acts” rather than “homosexuals”, even the catholic church distinguishes between the two.

The truth of the matter is homosexuality is a sin, venial if you don’t know it’s a mortal matter. The day that i read the canadian episcopal conference got together to vote about whether homosexuality was ok or not, is the day i started praying for the episcopalians. I used to be one.

Homosexuality?

Or homosexual acts?

Either way prove it, I mean so that there cant be any doubt and it is 100% clear with no room for interperation.

There is no way, no way at all that homosexuality can be justified. Just like free love and open air orgies. Bible doesnt say anything about those either.

Sorry, try again.

Actually the bible says plenty against those two, since they both involve adultery.

You might need to try again yourself.

 

[Bwsherman]

The church does indeed teach many things not in the bible. But it has been known to change its teachings from time to time, usually when they have a better understanding of things.

Please inform me on these teachings that the Church has changed.

The reality is that we dont know a huge ammount about homosexuality and why some people are homosexual. The term “homosexual” was only created in the 19th centuary and research into homosexuality started around the 1950’s, so it really is in its infant stages.

Maybe research into homosexuality is in its infancy, but homosexuals acts have been going since the Biblical era and probably earlier. Do you think that science is somehow necessary in determining whether or not something is immoral?

Either way prove it, I mean so that there cant be any doubt and it is 100% clear with no room for interperation.

That is the thing about scripture. One person’s proof may not mean the same thing to another person. The Protestant concept of perspicuity might sound good, but it is what leads to this sort of misunderstanding in scripture.

Actually the bible says plenty against those two, since they both involve adultery.

You might need to try again yourself.

Actually, single people are just as able to engage in these sinful acts as married people. So adultery may or may not be an issue. Where in scripture do you see the Bible going against free-love?

 

[Elric]

Please inform me on these teachings that the Church has changed.

I will give you one: Abortion.

Maybe research into homosexuality is in its infancy, but homosexuals acts have been going since the Biblical era and probably earlier. Do you think that science is somehow necessary in determining whether or not something is immoral?

I guess sometimes that has to be the case, especally if there is a claim of immorality about something you know nothing about.

That is the thing about scripture. One person’s proof may not mean the same thing to another person. The Protestant concept of perspicuity might sound good, but it is what leads to this sort of misunderstanding in scripture.

I guess thats a no.

Actually, single people are just as able to engage in these sinful acts as married people. So adultery may or may not be an issue. Where in scripture do you see the Bible going against free-love?

Do you even know what you are arguing?

 

[Bwsherman]

I will give you one: Abortion.

I am sorry but that claim is absolutely asinine. What is your support for this claim?

I guess sometimes that has to be the case, especally if there is a claim of immorality about something you know nothing about.

Sorry, I disagree. That sort of reasoning makes homosexuality a mental disorder or perhaps a disease and I am most certain that any homosexual would have much to say against it.

I guess thats a no.

Here are a number of verses in the Bible that could be used to state that homosexuality is sinful and goes against God’s plan for humanity. Whether you choose to accept these is your own decision, however, there are many, many verses that do in fact support the Church’s stance:

Gen. 1 & 2 - we see from the beginning that the complimentarity of the sexes reflects God’s inner unity and His creative power and Fatherhood. God created man and woman to become one flesh which is consummated in the act of marital love.

Gen. 2:18 – throughout the creation story, God says “it is good” seven times. But when God pointed out that man was alone, God says “it is not good.” God then created woman. Man and woman therefore belong together by God’s design, according to His natural and supernatural law.

Gen. 2:24 – God created man and woman so that they could share communion. This communion is consummated in the marital act (which must be between a man and a woman). This communion is also a reflection of the eternal communion of the Blessed Trinity, who created man in His own image and likeness.

Gen. 19:24-28 - the Lord rained fire and brimstone on Sodom and Gomorrah as punishment for the sin of homosexuality. Homosexuality perverts God’s covenant with humanity.

Gen 13:13; 18:20: while homosexuals argue that the sin in Genesis 19 was the sin of “inhospitality,” these verses show that the Sodomites were evil and wicked people before the alleged sin of inhospitality. That is because the Sodomites were guilty of homosexuality, not inhospitality. In fact, 2 Pet 2:6:8 says that Lot witnessed their evil sexual practices “day after day.” The Sodomites’ sin was daily and pervasive.

Gen 19:5: this confirms that the Sodomites’ sin is homosexuality. Here, the Sodomites mistaken the two angels for men and, surrounding Lot’s house, ask to have sex with them. When the yell to Lot “bring them out that we may know them,” the Hebrew for “to know” (yadah) in Gen 19:5 means having sexual relations. See, for example, Gen 4:25 where “yadah” refers to sexual relations between Adam and Eve.

2 Pet 2:6-10: Peter also proves that the Sodomites were guilty of homosexuality. He says God condemned them for “licentiousness” and “lust of defiling passion,” which is where we get the title “Sodomite” for a homosexual. The Greek “aselgeia anastrophes” for lustful behavior is also found in Rom 13:13; Gal 5:19; Eph 4:19 and Jude 4.

Jude 7: Jude also confirms the Sodomites’ sin is homosexuality. Jude says they “indulged in unnatural lust” (Greek, ekporneusasai) and went after “strange flesh” (Greek, sarkos heteras) in reference to their homosexual sins.

2 Peter 2:4-6: Peter also reveals that the Sodomites are suffering in hell for their sins by comparing the Sodomites’ punishment to the eternal punishment of the evil angels. Just as God did not spare the angels when they sinned but cast them into hell, so He did the same with the Sodomites when He “condemned them to extinction and made them an example to those who were to be ungodly.”

Jude 5-7: Like Peter, Jude confirms that the Sodomites are in hell by saying that they had the same fate as the evil angels. Jude says just as the evil angels were condemned to hell, the Sodomites “likewise” (Greek, hos) acted immorally and are undergoing a punishment of eternal fire. “Undergoing” (Greek, upechousai) is a present participle which means their suffering is ongoing. See also the clear polarity between those who are saved (v.5) and those who are condemned (vv. 6-7,11,13).

Lev. 18:22, 29 - God commands a man never to lie with a male as with a female, or he will be cut off. This refers to supernatural death which is eternal separation from God. While the Old Covenant laws have been abrogated by the New Covenant, the Church has adopted their moral principles. Thus, the moral prohibitions on homosexuality still apply in the New Covenant, as Peter, Paul and Jude demonstrate.

Lev. 20:13 - God says that if a man lies with another man, he shall be put to death. From the very beginning, God has revealed that homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered, unhealthy, and mortally sinful.

Deut. 22:5 - cross-dressing is also considered an abomination before God.

Matt. 19:6 - after referring to God’s divine plan for man and woman, Jesus says a husband and wife become one flesh, which ultimately reflects God’s union with humanity through the Church. Homosexual unions pervert this divine truth of God’s love for and union with the human race.

Rom. 1:26 - also, when a woman lies with another women (lesbianism), this is unnatural and a perversion. God wants His children to be pure and holy as He is holy. Paul condemns all homosexual acts, whether committed by men or women.

Rom. 1:27 – Paul calls the practice of homosexuality shameless, unnatural and a perversity. It is contrary to the natural law, as it eviscerates the life-giving aspect of human sexuality and reduces it to a selfish, pleasure-seeking end.

1 Cor 6:9: Paul teaches that sodomites will not enter into the kingdom of God. The Greek word for “sodomite” (arsenokoites) literally means “male copulation” or “male sexual relations.” The Greek “arsen” means “male” and “koites” means “coitus” or “sexual relations.” Paul uses the same word in 1 Tim 1:10.

1 Tim. 1:10 - sodomites are called ungodly and sinners, unholy and profane, lawless and disobedient. They are called by God to chastity. It is important to note that homosexual attractions and inclinations, while disordered and dangerous, are not by themselves sinful per se. It is the acting out on homosexual attraction that is sinful. Those with homosexual desires can still live a life worthy of Christ by remaining chaste and pure as they abstain from acting out on their desires.

The verses and explanations were taken from scripturecatholic.com in case you are curious.

Do you even know what you are arguing?

I know exactly what I was arguing, however, I was using your own line of thought against you. Basically, “If it does not say it exactly how I want it to, then it must not be in there.”

 

[Elric]

I am sorry but that claim is absolutely asinine. What is your support for this claim?

What exactly is so asinine about that?

Sorry, I disagree. That sort of reasoning makes homosexuality a mental disorder or perhaps a disease and I am most certain that any homosexual would have much to say against it.

What are you on about?

Science covers a lot more than mental health and diseases. Please dont try twisting my words.

Here are a number of verses in the Bible that could be used to state that homosexuality is sinful and goes against God’s plan for humanity. Whether you choose to accept these is your own decision, however, there are many, many verses that do in fact support the Church’s stance:

Yep and the key word there is “could”, that most certainly isnt a definate.

The verses and explanations were taken from scripturecatholic.com in case you are curious.

No, not really.

Most of those have already been gone over anyway (remember those accusations that you made?). But I did love the way you jumped on the Latin “coitus” bandwagon.

I know exactly what I was arguing,

I disagree.

however, I was using your own line of thought against you. Basically, “If it does not say it exactly how I want it to, then it must not be in there.”

Then its pretty obvious that you are not following my line of thought, because that isnt it.

So now its got to the stage where you are playing silly games and twisting words simply because I dont agree with you?

And you wonder why I made the comment about dishonesty.

 

[Eden]

The Catholic Church will never change its teachings on homosexuality…ever. We teach only truth and our truths don’t bend to opinion polls or cultural trends.

 

[truagape]

I am sorry but that claim is absolutely asinine. What is your support for this claim?

Sorry, I disagree. That sort of reasoning makes homosexuality a mental disorder or perhaps a disease and I am most certain that any homosexual would have much to say against it.

Here are a number of verses in the Bible that could be used to state that homosexuality is sinful and goes against God’s plan for humanity. Whether you choose to accept these is your own decision, however, there are many, many verses that do in fact support the Church’s stance:

Gen. 1 & 2 - we see from the beginning that the complimentarity of the sexes reflects God’s inner unity and His creative power and Fatherhood. God created man and woman to become one flesh which is consummated in the act of marital love.

Gen. 2:18 – throughout the creation story, God says “it is good” seven times. But when God pointed out that man was alone, God says “it is not good.” God then created woman. Man and woman therefore belong together by God’s design, according to His natural and supernatural law.

Gen. 2:24 – God created man and woman so that they could share communion. This communion is consummated in the marital act (which must be between a man and a woman). This communion is also a reflection of the eternal communion of the Blessed Trinity, who created man in His own image and likeness.

Gen. 19:24-28 - the Lord rained fire and brimstone on Sodom and Gomorrah as punishment for the sin of homosexuality. Homosexuality perverts God’s covenant with humanity.

Gen 13:13; 18:20: while homosexuals argue that the sin in Genesis 19 was the sin of “inhospitality,” these verses show that the Sodomites were evil and wicked people before the alleged sin of inhospitality. That is because the Sodomites were guilty of homosexuality, not inhospitality. In fact, 2 Pet 2:6:8 says that Lot witnessed their evil sexual practices “day after day.” The Sodomites’ sin was daily and pervasive.

Gen 19:5: this confirms that the Sodomites’ sin is homosexuality. Here, the Sodomites mistaken the two angels for men and, surrounding Lot’s house, ask to have sex with them. When the yell to Lot “bring them out that we may know them,” the Hebrew for “to know” (yadah) in Gen 19:5 means having sexual relations. See, for example, Gen 4:25 where “yadah” refers to sexual relations between Adam and Eve.

2 Pet 2:6-10: Peter also proves that the Sodomites were guilty of homosexuality. He says God condemned them for “licentiousness” and “lust of defiling passion,” which is where we get the title “Sodomite” for a homosexual. The Greek “aselgeia anastrophes” for lustful behavior is also found in Rom 13:13; Gal 5:19; Eph 4:19 and Jude 4.

Jude 7: Jude also confirms the Sodomites’ sin is homosexuality. Jude says they “indulged in unnatural lust” (Greek, ekporneusasai) and went after “strange flesh” (Greek, sarkos heteras) in reference to their homosexual sins.

2 Peter 2:4-6: Peter also reveals that the Sodomites are suffering in hell for their sins by comparing the Sodomites’ punishment to the eternal punishment of the evil angels. Just as God did not spare the angels when they sinned but cast them into hell, so He did the same with the Sodomites when He “condemned them to extinction and made them an example to those who were to be ungodly.”

Jude 5-7: Like Peter, Jude confirms that the Sodomites are in hell by saying that they had the same fate as the evil angels. Jude says just as the evil angels were condemned to hell, the Sodomites “likewise” (Greek, hos) acted immorally and are undergoing a punishment of eternal fire. “Undergoing” (Greek, upechousai) is a present participle which means their suffering is ongoing. See also the clear polarity between those who are saved (v.5) and those who are condemned (vv. 6-7,11,13).

Lev. 18:22, 29 - God commands a man never to lie with a male as with a female, or he will be cut off. This refers to supernatural death which is eternal separation from God. While the Old Covenant laws have been abrogated by the New Covenant, the Church has adopted their moral principles. Thus, the moral prohibitions on homosexuality still apply in the New Covenant, as Peter, Paul and Jude demonstrate.

Lev. 20:13 - God says that if a man lies with another man, he shall be put to death. From the very beginning, God has revealed that homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered, unhealthy, and mortally sinful.

Deut. 22:5 - cross-dressing is also considered an abomination before God.

Matt. 19:6 - after referring to God’s divine plan for man and woman, Jesus says a husband and wife become one flesh, which ultimately reflects God’s union with humanity through the Church. Homosexual unions pervert this divine truth of God’s love for and union with the human race.

Rom. 1:26 - also, when a woman lies with another women (lesbianism), this is unnatural and a perversion. God wants His children to be pure and holy as He is holy. Paul condemns all homosexual acts, whether committed by men or women.

Rom. 1:27 – Paul calls the practice of homosexuality shameless, unnatural and a perversity. It is contrary to the natural law, as it eviscerates the life-giving aspect of human sexuality and reduces it to a selfish, pleasure-seeking end.

1 Cor 6:9: Paul teaches that sodomites will not enter into the kingdom of God. The Greek word for “sodomite” (arsenokoites) literally means “male copulation” or “male sexual relations.” The Greek “arsen” means “male” and “koites” means “coitus” or “sexual relations.” Paul uses the same word in 1 Tim 1:10.

1 Tim. 1:10 - sodomites are called ungodly and sinners, unholy and profane, lawless and disobedient. They are called by God to chastity. It is important to note that homosexual attractions and inclinations, while disordered and dangerous, are not by themselves sinful per se. It is the acting out on homosexual attraction that is sinful. Those with homosexual desires can still live a life worthy of Christ by remaining chaste and pure as they abstain from acting out on their desires.

The verses and explanations were taken from scripturecatholic.com in case you are curious.

I know exactly what I was arguing, however, I was using your own line of thought against you. Basically, “If it does not say it exactly how I want it to, then it must not be in there.”

Your conclusions about the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah could not be further from the truth, let alone scripture. In time you will come to have to retract and re-examine almost every single word you uttered in that post! There are several already on this fourm who have had to do just that. And you’re next!

 

[Bwsherman]

Your conclusions about the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah could not be further from the truth, let alone scripture. In time you will come to have to retract and re-examine almost every single word you uttered in that post! There are several already on this fourm who have had to do just that. And you’re next!

First, these conclusions are not my words. I cited them as coming from scripturecatholic.com. It is called being able to back up your information. That being said…I do agree with what the theologian wrote. Not scarred to back up my claim. Unlike others on here who simply make statements and give no support. So I say, bring it on.

 

[Bwsherman]

What exactly is so asinine about that?

It is asinine because it is unfounded and untrue. In other words, I am saying you are being disingenuous. But please prove me wrong by stating where you got your information.

Science covers a lot more than mental health and diseases. Please dont try twisting my words.

I was not atttempting to twist your words that is just the conclusion I drew from what you said.

Yep and the key word there is “could”, that most certainly isnt a definate.

I apologize for using the word could…it most certainly is proof.

No, not really.

I told you where I got the information from because I back up what I say unlike yourself.

Most of those have already been gone over anyway (remember those accusations that you made?). But I did love the way you jumped on the Latin “coitus” bandwagon.

You really don’t read very closely…not my words. I cited them remember. I do agree with them though.

Then its pretty obvious that you are not following my line of thought, because that isnt it.

Then what is your line of thought? I honestly have no idea at this point.

 

[truagape]

First, these conclusions are not my words. I cited them as coming from scripturecatholic.com.

Ok let’s start with something you’re obviously comfortable with, “catholic commentary”. Why don’t you familarize yourself with the commentary provided in the JB bible in regards to Jude 7. Tell me, does it agree with what you say in your post in regards to Jude 7? It’s a catholic bible, so it should be right up your alley.

 

[Bwsherman]

Ok let’s start with something you’re obviously comfortable with, “catholic commentary”. Why don’t you familarize yourself with the commentary provided in the JB bible in regards to Jude 7. Tell me, does it agree with what you say in your post in regards to Jude 7? It’s a catholic bible, so it should be right up your alley.

I have attempted to find the commentary you spoke of and I am unsuccessful. If you could supply a link, I would be more than happy to read it. Thanks.

 

[truagape]

I have attempted to find the commentary you spoke of and I am unsuccessful. If you could supply a link, I would be more than happy to read it. Thanks.

Thanks for being willing to look! Sorry I don’t have a link for ya . It’s the 1966 Jueruslem (spelling) Bible. I read it not online, but when I was in a theocratic library doing some research. Instead of me providing the commentary for you, I think it would be better if you could access the bible via your local parish and then tell me what you found.

 

[truagape]

I cited them as coming from scripturecatholic.com.

I am so glad you provided this link. This page is perfect in setting the stage in being able to dispell the age old myths surrounding homosexuality, scripture, and church teaching. I am looking foward to the powerful discussions the link you posted will be responsible for generating. And I will be referring to it as well as your posts rather often.

 

[Eden]

I am so glad you provided this link. This page is perfect in setting the stage in being able to dispell the age old myths surrounding homosexuality, scripture, and church teaching. I am looking foward to the powerful discussions the link you posted will be responsible for generating. And I will be referring to it as well as your posts rather often.

I have to hand it to you for having such confidence… or should I say, arrogance? In either case, I always look forward to the seeing what the people on this forum put forward to “dispel” Catholicism and Catholic teaching. This should be good…

 

[Bwsherman]

Thanks for being willing to look! Sorry I don’t have a link for ya . It’s the 1966 Jueruslem (spelling) Bible. I read it not online, but when I was in a theocratic library doing some research. Instead of me providing the commentary for you, I think it would be better if you could access the bible via your local parish and then tell me what you found.

You are welcome. I have no problem trying to gather perspective on the issue if sources can be provided. I will check with my parish library and if I am unsuccessful than I will ask my Aunt. I believe she uses the Jerusalem Bible. It may be awhile until I can respond to your initial question.

 

[truagape]

I have to hand it to you for having such confidence… or should I say, arrogance?

Confident? Yes. Arrogance? You decide!

 

[truagape]

You are welcome. I have no problem trying to gather perspective on the issue if sources can be provided. I will check with my parish library and if I am unsuccessful than I will ask my Aunt. I believe she uses the Jerusalem Bible. It may be awhile until I can respond to your initial question.

I so appreciate your attitude! I look foward to your findings!