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jay29
Guest
Now that is a GREAT question. Would someone answer it???
Also, maybe I missed it, someone answer these:
A male and female having sex outside of marriage, that is FORNICATION, which falls under the deadly sin of LUST. How are two homosexuals having sex NOT fornicating? Also show me having sex outside of a valid marriage is ok. Would someone KINDLY answer these…
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Lilyflower
Guest
Man shall not lie with another man, as with womankind: it is an abomination." - Leviticus 18:22
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jay29
Guest
I know. I just want to see where Jesus or His Church lifted that ban. This should be a simple request by those who support homosexual acts.
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Elric
Guest
Ignoring for a moment that the passage in question is unclear and ambigous, what about the other 500 odd mosaic laws?
Were they lifted and if so, why all of them and not this one?
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Elric
Guest
To be honest, that sounds like a cop out.
You cant be 100% certain what “lay lyings” and “malebed” means, nobody is. You cant be certian that “abomination” is what was intended from the Hebrew word, because it has other meanings that fit that passage.
Im not suggesting that they mean the opposite, just that they are unclear.
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peary
Guest
**From the 5th to 15th centuries, Western society and education were heavily influenced by the Catholic Church. The Church operated parish, chapel, and monastery schools at the elementary level. Schools in monasteries and cathedrals offered secondary education. Much of the teaching in these schools was directed at learning Latin, the old Roman language used by the church in its ceremonies and teachings. The church provided some limited opportunities for the education of women in religious communities or convents. Convents had libraries and schools to help prepare nuns to follow the religious rules of their communities. Merchant and craft guilds also maintained some schools that provided basic education and training in specific crafts. Knights received training in military tactics and the code of chivalry. only a minority of people went to school during the medieval period. Schools were attended primarily by persons planning to enter religious life such as priests, monks, or nuns. The vast majority of people were serfs who served as agricultural workers on the estates of feudal lords. The serfs, who did not attend school, were generally illiterate.
I don’t have a problem with History.
**
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LaMar
Guest
Agree with you here. The only point on which we differ is a definition of “marriage”.
Marriage is, at its root, a public declaration. The declaration has two purposes. The first is a pledge between two people of faithfulness. The second is a witnessing by the wider world, which brings an acknowledgment that neither party is thereafter eligible for a carnal relationship with others.
In the old days, people of modest means who couldn’t afford dowries and expensive priests and magistrates used to go to the town square and just pledge their vows to one another. (That’s where the “common law marriage” tradition comes from, as well as the tradition of getting married on the courthouse steps).
I see nothing in Paul’s message that precludes two dudes or two chicks from such a marriage. He condemned those whose natural inclination was heterosexuality from catting around here and there with dudes. He said nothing about those whose natural inclination was homosexuality. I respect your position too though. We all read these texts through our own lenses, and yours is as valid as mine.
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LDNCatholic
Guest
Please, can you provide evidence for the translation from the Hebrew being possibly mistaken? It wasn’t a cop out, when I read Leviticus 18:22 from the Douay Rheims translation (the most accurate translation) I read:
‘‘Thou shalt not lie with mankind as with womankind, because it is an abomination.’’
I see nothing about ‘‘do not lie lyings’’ or ‘‘malebed’’.
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Tim_Hayes
Guest
xixxvmcm85
You have to tell me what you specifically disagree with first. Hell go onto various homosexual activist web sites and check out the claims they make for the purpose of court action, many in court document site the 1-3% figure.
I also work in the investigation field as a police officer, at various times specifically inviestigating sexual abuse crimes reported by adults in relation to the sexual abuse they received when they were young, and guess what not surprisingly many of them were are or had been practicing homosexuals, naturally enough quite a lot weren’t, but an awful lot were.
To even critique what I have said shows me that you have no understanding of human nature whatsoever, It is a simple fact that as humans we have free choice and whilst the natural tendancy is towards heterosexuality, that natural tendancy can be “easily” warped over time.
In fact imagine how these young boys feel, someone shows them fatherly type affection, showers them with “love” and then one day starts putting the moves onto these boys, who in many cases are very vulnerable. Imagine someone who is a fatherly type figure saying that sex between men and boys is a natural.
Well at the end of the day sex is a basic carnal instinct and it is a natural desire to achieve sexual satisfaction, so all you have to do is mould the conditons upon which sexual satisfaction is achieved and suddenly you have environmentally effected change. That is why a huge number of homosexuals report being abused when they were younger.
Are you not aware of studies doen for eg. that show a disproportionately higher number of homosexuals amongst single mothers than married mothers.
In fact snce your in the jail system you should realise that quite a lot of men turn towards homosexual behaviour within prison and subsequently don’t “practice” it when released.
I used to supply facts regularly to people and show them where they are from, but most of us like to be blind when it is something we don’t like to accept.
Once we attach emotions to a relationship then it is so much harder to be critical, so naturally enough If I tell you that something is wrong tomorrow, but you know nice people who do it, then it is natural to want to excuse the behaviour.
I have a geat deal of sympathy for those who are homosexual because many if not most of them whether born that way or environmentally made that way have a hard life, but then so do many people.
Geez in many ways I hope people are born with the problem, that way when we all stand before God, surely he must look and judge accordingly and have compassion for a problem born out of a very strong natural tendancy towards sexual gratification gone wrong.
You have to tell me what you specifically disagree with first. Hell go onto various homosexual activist web sites and check out the claims they make for the purpose of court action, many in court document site the 1-3% figure.
I also work in the investigation field as a police officer, at various times specifically inviestigating sexual abuse crimes reported by adults in relation to the sexual abuse they received when they were young, and guess what not surprisingly many of them were are or had been practicing homosexuals, naturally enough quite a lot weren’t, but an awful lot were.
To even critique what I have said shows me that you have no understanding of human nature whatsoever, It is a simple fact that as humans we have free choice and whilst the natural tendancy is towards heterosexuality, that natural tendancy can be “easily” warped over time.
In fact imagine how these young boys feel, someone shows them fatherly type affection, showers them with “love” and then one day starts putting the moves onto these boys, who in many cases are very vulnerable. Imagine someone who is a fatherly type figure saying that sex between men and boys is a natural.
Well at the end of the day sex is a basic carnal instinct and it is a natural desire to achieve sexual satisfaction, so all you have to do is mould the conditons upon which sexual satisfaction is achieved and suddenly you have environmentally effected change. That is why a huge number of homosexuals report being abused when they were younger.
Are you not aware of studies doen for eg. that show a disproportionately higher number of homosexuals amongst single mothers than married mothers.
In fact snce your in the jail system you should realise that quite a lot of men turn towards homosexual behaviour within prison and subsequently don’t “practice” it when released.
I used to supply facts regularly to people and show them where they are from, but most of us like to be blind when it is something we don’t like to accept.
Once we attach emotions to a relationship then it is so much harder to be critical, so naturally enough If I tell you that something is wrong tomorrow, but you know nice people who do it, then it is natural to want to excuse the behaviour.
I have a geat deal of sympathy for those who are homosexual because many if not most of them whether born that way or environmentally made that way have a hard life, but then so do many people.
Geez in many ways I hope people are born with the problem, that way when we all stand before God, surely he must look and judge accordingly and have compassion for a problem born out of a very strong natural tendancy towards sexual gratification gone wrong.
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mercygate
Guest
Elric, this is a long thread, and I believe I have followed it. The ritual law and the moral law hold different weight in Jewish thought. While the “divine and natural moral law” that Sirach and Paul refer to as being written on the face of creation can be known by the unaided human heart and intellect (thou shalt not murder, steal, etc), the ritual laws cannot possibly be known except by privileged revelation.
So Paul, in Romans, strongly affirms that works “of the law” – such as circumcision and offering two turtle doves for the birth of a son – can in no way contribute to one’s justification or righteousness, he also affirms in Romans 1 that the natural moral law is “obvious” to the honest human heart.
Two kinds of law.
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mercygate
Guest
Excuse me. You left something out. The main item on the menu: **The procreation, protection, and nurturing of children. **Y’know? The FIRST commandment: Be fruitful and multiply.
. . . [paragraph deleted]
I appreciate your recognition that there are “lenses”. Now, here’s a pack of Kimwipes. :tissues:
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ralphinal
Guest
Then why did Paul not endorse it in order ot gain respect with the factions in Athens that allowed for homosexual love? See, Paul was “all things to all people.” If there was no sin involved with it, he would have told the Greeks that it was ok.
As far as your public declaration goes, please so me some proof that at any time, it could have been two same-sex people.
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ralphinal
Guest
Someone else already explained about the moral vs. ritual laws. The moral code was left, ritual replaced. The ten commandments being an example.
Now, that still does not fix the fact that Jesus very clearly made it that any sex, even sexual thoughts, outside of marriage is a sin. He also stated that marriage was when a man and a woman join. NOt two people, a male and a female.
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mercygate
Guest
Mt 19:8 – “from the beginning . . .”
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ricko
Guest
Here is a good web site I recommend for homosexuals.
couragerc.net/
couragerc.net/
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Lilyflower
Guest
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feetxxxl
Guest
“Someone else already explained about the moral vs. ritual laws. The moral code was left, ritual replaced. The ten commandments being an example.”
slavery is now considered an intolerable evil… was that not part of the moral code?
i recomend for those really interested in this subject , to read the entire thread. there have been a lot of good comments made. some that have already been discussed many times and others have yet to even be acknowledged.
slavery is now considered an intolerable evil… was that not part of the moral code?
i recomend for those really interested in this subject , to read the entire thread. there have been a lot of good comments made. some that have already been discussed many times and others have yet to even be acknowledged.
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Lilyflower
Guest
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feetxxxl
Guest
i’ve been waiting for levitical law to be explained thru romans new covenant understanding, that" love your neighbor as yourself "is the summation of all the law.
and that under the new covenant, we dont have the old relationship to the written code. the law helps us to be conscious of sin, but not sin of regulation, because we dont have the old relationship to the written code, because now sin is about violation of spirit. because in christ we are now led by and serve of the spirit.
in other words sin under the new covenant is about …not wearing mixed fabric, doing household chores on the sabbath, or that marriage can only be between a man and a woman, etc…but sin is now about that which comes against the spirit of the commmandment, the commandment being about spirit, and about that which is against the fruit of the spirit a(gal5) which is the essence of the spirit of god
and that under the new covenant, we dont have the old relationship to the written code. the law helps us to be conscious of sin, but not sin of regulation, because we dont have the old relationship to the written code, because now sin is about violation of spirit. because in christ we are now led by and serve of the spirit.
in other words sin under the new covenant is about …not wearing mixed fabric, doing household chores on the sabbath, or that marriage can only be between a man and a woman, etc…but sin is now about that which comes against the spirit of the commmandment, the commandment being about spirit, and about that which is against the fruit of the spirit a(gal5) which is the essence of the spirit of god
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