Second Coming of Jesus

[FaithofAbraham]

Yes I do.

We are talking about two different things here. The destruction of the Temple in 70 A.D. is the public sign that Christ had set up His Kingdom.

Christ’s second coming will not be to set up His kingdom, it will be to destroy Satan at the battle of Gog and Magog.

Please explain why Jesus would physically reign for a thousand years on earth, and then allow Satan to launch his final assault?

Peace,

Ryan

What evidence do you have that Satan has ever been bound for a thousand years? Satan bound should mean relative peace and a lack of sin, right?

Who was the False Prophet who worked miracles for the world, in your belief?

 

[ryanoneil]

What evidence do you have that Satan has ever been bound for a thousand years?

“Commentary on the Apocalypse” written by Victorinus in 270 A.D. “Those years wherein Satan is bound are the first advent of Christ, even to the end of the age; and they are called a thousand, according to that mode of speaking, wherein a part is signified by the whole, just as in that passage, ‘the word which He commanded for a thousand generations,’ although they are not a thousand. . . During this time the Devil is excluded from the hearts of believers. . . That is, God forbade and restrained his seducing those who belong to Christ” (COA, XX)

Also Eusibius, St Jerome, and Justin Martyr to name a few. Ultimately, the issue is not what certain writers believed, but what the early Church as a whole believed. They vehemently repudiated notions of a corporeal kingdom on earth distinct from the Church, which Jesus is the head of.

Do a little research and you’ll find that the Eastern part of the Church refused to recognize the canonicity of Revelation because some percieved it as premillennealist. It was only when the Western part of the early Church succeeded in convincing the East that premillennialism was NOT integral to this book that is was universally accepted as canonical.

Satan bound should mean relative peace and a lack of sin, right?

The key word being relative.

Who was the False Prophet who worked miracles for the world, in your belief?

Please remind me where to find this particular reference. I’m leaving to watch the football game, and will try to respond when I get home.

Peace,

Ryan

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

The destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD had nothing to do with the end of time and return of the Lord Jesus or is 1000 reign upon the earth. The first proof of that is that the heaven and earth have not past away with a new heaven and earth. Secondly I see no where that th Gospel had reached Asia by the 70 AD so it had not reach to even all of the know world. Thirdly If you read St johns revelation the mass of death and destruction of not only human life but plant an animal life has never been seen since the Flood. Also since the Time of Christ can you name a time when all the earth was require to except a mark upon their forehead or palm of their hand or die? I can go on and on as to why we still await the return of Our Lord Jesus Christ.

Pray brothers that we are not blinded by the great liar Be ever ready for we know not the day or hour of the Masters return.

 

[juliamajor]

Revelation is an apocalyptic book. apocalyptic books- a genre of biblical book to be read differently then you would read a narrative book, a poetic book, a didactic book. It is not to be taken Literally. . Or we’d all have giant cans of bugs spray or butterfly nets for those big ugly critters from the abyss, thank God the CC doesn’t go crazy as the fundamentalists and evangelicals do. Mr. darby sure did a good job promoting this tripe.apocalyptic texts are all to be taken with a big grain of salt and to be looked at like the vivid fantastical writings that it is.Our Church mercifully see it for what it is imagery of the second coming - of the correction of the universe and ultimately of hope. CCC says very little and I for one am grateful for that.(662-682)

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Please remind me where to find this particular reference. I’m leaving to watch the football game, and will try to respond when I get home.

Peace,

Ryan

Revelation 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

Revelation 13:12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

So the first Beast is the Great Gentile world power like Babylon, Rome, etc. at any given time.

The other beast, the False Prophet, like a Lamb and Messiah, a savior to the world.

But it speaks as a Dragon, and Satan’s first message to Eve was humans can be like God too, so it is a secular entity that looks religious but isn’t. In other words, nations that give the illusion of being Under God, but instead play as God themselves.

It has 2 Horns which are 2 Kingdoms. So this is actually the coalition of the Whore Judah riding upon the Gentile Beast. A coalition of Romans and Jews – in their later day incarnations, their first being the Antichrist partnership that sent Jesus to the cross – that look like a Messiah saving the world, but are secular and say they don’t really need God.

So all the people of the world will be deceived into thinking they are righteous and holy and give all their power to them, when in reality they are of Satan and Antichrist, against Jesus.

Matthew 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Matthew 24:25 Behold, I have told you before.

 

[ryanoneil]

Revelation 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

Revelation 13:12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

So the first Beast is the Great Gentile world power like Babylon, Rome, etc. at any given time.

The other beast, the False Prophet, like a Lamb and Messiah, a savior to the world.

But it speaks as a Dragon, and Satan’s first message to Eve was humans can be like God too, so it is a secular entity that looks religious but isn’t. In other words, nations that give the illusion of being Under God, but instead play as God themselves.

It has 2 Horns which are 2 Kingdoms. So this is actually the coalition of the Whore Judah riding upon the Gentile Beast. A coalition of Romans and Jews – in their later day incarnations, their first being the Antichrist partnership that sent Jesus to the cross – that look like a Messiah saving the world, but are secular and say they don’t really need God.

So all the people of the world will be deceived into thinking they are righteous and holy and give all their power to them, when in reality they are of Satan and Antichrist, against Jesus.

Matthew 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Matthew 24:25 Behold, I have told you before.

That is completely accurate for the first fulfillment of these verses. Satan’s two lieutenants were: the sea beast, the political adversary of the Church, was the Roman Empire with its emperor worship, and the beast of the earth, the theological adversary, was the Sanhedrin. The Jewish leadership of the Temple provided theological “cover” for the political machine of Rome.

Josephus mentioned two men whom Nero sent to administer his will in Jerusalem (AJ, XX, 11:1): Albinus and Gessius Florus. THey are probably the most logical interpretation of the two lamb-like horns on the beast.

The “False prophet” is a description of what the land-beast did (Rev 13:14) They stood in a long line of false prophets who have assured God’s people they were safe, when they were anything but safe. The Sanhedrin in 70 A.D. fit the description. Not only had they led Jerusalem in revolt against her Messiah almost a generation earlier, but during the war they assured Jerusalem that God would deliver them. They are the same who were forced to drink wormwood (eat their own words) in (Rev 8:11) when Rome turned on them. We also see the same events recapitualated with the beast and the harlot.

Can you see a patern here? Those events you apply to the future have happened already. That is not to say they won’t happen again. Scripture has been fulfilled up through part of the millenium reign of Christ. I think the more pertinent question is whether Satan has been released from his chains yet.

If you want to discuss these verses further, that would be great. In the meantime I’m going to make another post.

Peace,

Ryan

 

[paarsurrey]

Originally Posted by paarsurrey
Hi friends Jimmy B,Tietjenand others.

We were discussing from the Bible certain events with figures, name of personalities etc mentioned in and very much in the Bible. I don’t believe that it is a work of wicthcraft or a fortune teller, impossible. If it is to be treated like that, then I think the volume of this Book we say Bible would thin to much lesser extent, may be it is halfed.

Kindly rethink your opinion.

Be a careful (not you specifically), because this is more directed at your comments in general and not at you.

Hi

I don’t take anything from the Protestants specifically nor I am much influenced by them. We were discussing things directly mentioned in the NTBible for which you gave the above remarks, which were in my opinion not suited to the occasion.

If you please, kindly explain the events of Armageddon, Appearance ofAnti-Christ, God Magog, End of Time, Second Coming of Jesus; their sequence and happening of events from OTBible and NTBible. I intend to start a new thread for this purpose, kindly explain it there.

I request my JWs friends , Protestants friends and others as well to participate to clear up the concepts to end the confusion.

Thanks

 

[c659smith]

Paarsurrey,

There are no misconceptions by you but when asked the tough questions you just simply ignore.

That is your right but why ask others tough questions for when it comes to proof in the pudding time you just simply walk away.

I believe that you are just trying to play a devils advocate role between Protestants and Catholics but to never defend or explain the rationale of your faith when push comes to shove.

 

[Special_Ed]

The destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD had nothing to do with the end of time and return of the Lord Jesus or is 1000 reign upon the earth. The first proof of that is that the heaven and earth have not past away with a new heaven and earth. Secondly I see no where that th Gospel had reached Asia by the 70 AD so it had not reach to even all of the know world. Thirdly If you read St johns revelation the mass of death and destruction of not only human life but plant an animal life has never been seen since the Flood. Also since the Time of Christ can you name a time when all the earth was require to except a mark upon their forehead or palm of their hand or die? I can go on and on as to why we still await the return of Our Lord Jesus Christ.

Pray brothers that we are not blinded by the great liar Be ever ready for we know not the day or hour of the Masters return.

The Apocalypse of John was written between 95 and 115 A.D. Well after the destruction of Jerusalem. Ryan has said to me that the book of Revelation is fulfilled uo to chapetr 20. But yet, he has no answer for this contradiction. If John was writting a history book, he was a lunatic on mushrooms. Not a prophet of God.

 

[ryanoneil]

The Apocalypse of John was written between 95 and 115 A.D. Well after the destruction of Jerusalem. Ryan has said to me that the book of Revelation is fulfilled uo to chapetr 20. But yet, he has no answer for this contradiction. If John was writting a history book, he was a lunatic on mushrooms. Not a prophet of God.

You are the one making the claim. Please prove that The book of Revelation was written between 95 and 115 A.D.

Do you think the author of The book of Revelation is St. John the Apostle? (how old would he be in you senario? between 85 to 105 maybe)

Are you getting your dates from modern scholars who split the book into different parts (usually three), and date each from a different period?

If so, would you provide the name of at least one modern scholar who does not date the largest section (chs. 4-14) from the reign of Nero?

Peace,

Ryan

 

[ryanoneil]

The Apocalypse of John was written between 95 and 115 A.D. Well after the destruction of Jerusalem. Ryan has said to me that the book of Revelation is fulfilled uo to chapetr 20. But yet, he has no answer for this contradiction. If John was writting a history book, he was a lunatic on mushrooms. Not a prophet of God.

Nothing personal Ed. I’m sorry we got off to a bad start on this thread as well. I wish I had answered this question on the other thread.

I don’t agree with your dates, so there is no contradiction for me.
The accepted frame of reference for the text is 68 A.D. The New Catholic Encyclopedia states, “Some scholars believe that the historical background of Apocalypse was the reign of Nero. . . The preparatory vision in Heaven serves as a second prophetic investiture for the revelation of God’s interventions from the Resurrection of Christ to the fall of Jerusalem. [Some scholars] find apocalyptic allusion to different phases of the Jewish war of 66-70” (NCE, LAH).

I believe the human author of the book of Revelation to be none other that St. John the Apostle. The list of early Chuch Fathers who accepted St. John’s authorship is formidable: Melito, Papias, Justin Martyr, Iranaeus, Hippolytus, Tertullian, Clement of Alexandria, Origen, Cyprian, Athanasius, Cyril of Alexandria, and Basil, to name the most prominent.

Since there is broad support among scholars that the book was authored by one man and that its frame of reference is 68 A.D., I see no convincing reason to abandon the traditional Church position: St John is the author.

By 96 A.D. St. John was an invalid according to St. Jerome? Who “was with difficulty carried into the Church, and could speak only a few words to the people.”

So, even if your dating is correct, the author’s intended frame of reference for the text is 68 A.D. Personally, I believe that St. John saw the visions and wrote them down around the same date as the frame of reference.

Peace,

Ryan

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

The Apocalypse of John was written between 95 and 115 A.D. Well after the destruction of Jerusalem. Ryan has said to me that the book of Revelation is fulfilled uo to chapetr 20. But yet, he has no answer for this contradiction. If John was writting a history book, he was a lunatic on mushrooms. Not a prophet of God.

Amen and Amen

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

Nothing personal Ed. I’m sorry we got off to a bad start on this thread as well. I wish I had answered this question on the other thread.

I don’t agree with your dates, so there is no contradiction for me.
The accepted frame of reference for the text is 68 A.D. The New Catholic Encyclopedia states, “Some scholars believe that the historical background of Apocalypse was the reign of Nero. . . The preparatory vision in Heaven serves as a second prophetic investiture for the revelation of God’s interventions from the Resurrection of Christ to the fall of Jerusalem. [Some scholars] find apocalyptic allusion to different phases of the Jewish war of 66-70” (NCE, LAH).

I believe the human author of the book of Revelation to be none other that St. John the Apostle. The list of early Chuch Fathers who accepted St. John’s authorship is formidable: Melito, Papias, Justin Martyr, Iranaeus, Hippolytus, Tertullian, Clement of Alexandria, Origen, Cyprian, Athanasius, Cyril of Alexandria, and Basil, to name the most prominent.

Since there is broad support among scholars that the book was authored by one man and that its frame of reference is 68 A.D., I see no convincing reason to abandon the traditional Church position: St John is the author.

By 96 A.D. St. John was an invalid according to St. Jerome? Who “was with difficulty carried into the Church, and could speak only a few words to the people.”

So, even if your dating is correct, the author’s intended frame of reference for the text is 68 A.D. Personally, I believe that St. John saw the visions and wrote them down around the same date as the frame of reference.

Peace,

Ryan

From the Preface to St.Johns Revelation In the New American Bible Give the date of authorship at 81 to 96 AD

 

[Special_Ed]

Ryan,
Let me define the word Apocalypse.

Revelation in latin is revelatio, in Greek apokalupsis, from which the english word “apocalypse” is derived. It means…
**a disclosureof of that which was previously hidden or unknown. **

That alone refutes your theory.

The *main purpose *of the book is to provide us with some insight into what the conditions of the end woulld be like at the comsummation of history, (age of grace) and return of Jesus Christ.

It’s believed that John had heard about the destruction of Jerusalem and that it may have had some influenced in his writtings.

If I remember right, the John who wrote Revelation was Jesus’ half brother. ( I might be wrong on that) It would not be uncommon for him to live into his 90’s. As you know, he was in prison on the Island of Patmos when he wrote it and died, and was believed to be the last surviving apostle/disciple.

It makes no sense that the entire book of Revelation up to chapter 20 would be history. All the dates that I remember seeing range from 80 something to 115 A.D. with 95 being the most common.
I really don’t want to get into prophecy ping pong on this one.

God bless,

The events to come will change many minds.

SE

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Prophecy says Jerusalem is like the Fig Tree, and that it will be putting forth leaves before Jesus returns. The Fig Tree already existed when Jesus withered it, which symbolized destruction in AD 70.

So in the parable, Jesus is referring to a restored Jerusalem after AD 70, but before his return. In the 20th century a form of Israel was restored and Jews got to the wall of the Temple Mount.

But prophecy says Messiah needs to raise Israel, and also that the False Prophet is someone who looks like Messiah that maybe raises a secular Israel that rejects God and Jesus as its king.

The Beast is the Gentile Kingdoms that rule Jews instead of David’s Kingdom, starting with Babylon. So the Whore of Babylon with the Beast in Revelation is Jews ruling with the Gentile Beast she fornicates with to receive her power.

In addition to other prophecies that also mark this “season” of time.

2: Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Hosea 6:2 After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.

---

1st Century + 2 Days = 2000 years
“will he revive us” = First Resurrection

Revelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

---

1st Century + 3 Days = 3000 years
“and we shall live in his sight” = God is among men

Revelation 20:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

---

1st Century + 3 Days = 3000 years = Jesus is the Temple of New Jerusalem.

John 2:19, 21 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. But he spake of the temple of his body.

Revelation 21:22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and** the Lamb are the temple of it**.

---

3000 years - 1000 years when Satan is bound.

Revelation 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

= 21st Century

 

[ryanoneil]

I really don’t want to get into prophecy ping pong on this one.

God bless,

The events to come will change many minds.

SE

No problem Ed. I thought you were asking for my “answer for this contradiction.”

Peace,

Ryan