Secular Carmelites and those curious

[Leo44]

Jen,

I’ll send you a private email with the info, go to your email box.

Your brother in Carmel, Leo

 

[Augustine]

Leo44:

Here are the cities in OH where there are communities,
Cincinnati, Cleveland, Columbus, Steubenville, Toledo

Would you kindly let me know about communities in the Central Texas area?

AFAIK, the closest one to me is about 6h from here, near San Angelo. Not that it would be too hard, as the community meets only once a month, but it’s a major trip.

TIA

 

[Leo44]

Augustine:

Would you kindly let me know about communities in the Central Texas area?

AFAIK, the closet one to me is about 6h from here, near San Angelo. Not that it would be too hard, as the community meets only once a month, but it’s a major trip.

TIA

Sorry I don’t have that info at hand but I’ll do some checking

 

[Augustine]

Augustine:

Would you kindly let me know about communities in the Central Texas area?

I found this one in Dallas, mere 3h away. But I wonder about their orthodoxy in this page: professionalwebs.net/mtcarmel/Spirituality/spirituality.html.
**A major goal of the Center is to provide a platform for all the serious traditions of Christian as well as major non-Christian asceticism and mysticism. TM, new age, etc, come to mind… Are OCDs orthodox in general?

Thanks.

 

[Leo44]

All OCDS I know are very orthodox, but I’m sure there are those that are not.

 

[Leo44]

Here is a site that has much info

OCDS Wash Prov

Welcome to the Washington Province of the Immaculate Heart of Mary - Secular Order of Discalced Carmelites

www.ocdswashprov.org

 

[Jenlyn]

To join or not to join-

What moves a person to join? Why not just live the rule? What are the positives for joining?

The devil is working in my head…can you tell?

Jen

 

[DBT]

Jenlyn:

To join or not to join-

What moves a person to join? Why not just live the rule? What are the positives for joining?

The devil is working in my head…can you tell?

Jen

I certainly know what you’re talking about . . . I vascillated and dithered for a long time before I made the jump. In hindsight, I probably wasn’t ready at the time because I was a little lax about the living the Rule. And yes, you can live the Rule on your own . . . I did that for about a year.

I was also a little hesitant about the idea of community . . . but after giving it a try it has been a real blessing. I’m not a touchy-feely type of guy but the idea of being with other like minded people has been very good for me. After a while the idea of doing this on my own . . . and trying to be my own spiritual director . . . had more downside than upside. But maybe that’s just me.

For me it all came down to this: No matter how hard I tried to put Carmel out of my mind . . . it kept coming back. That’s when I began to realize that I might have a call.

Finally - discernment is a very long process (5-6 years) so there’s plenty of time to see if Carmel is right for you. Just keep praying, researching and talking to others - maybe go as a visitor to a meeting to see what it’s like.

You’ll know when and if it’s right . . .

 

[Jenlyn]

I thought I would add this to this thread. The link about how scapulars came into existence and the different ones is on the scapular thread.

[Brown Scapular
Order of Our Lady of Mount Carmel (Carmelites)
A.D. 1251

“The Brown Scapular of our Lady of Mount Carmel,” associated with the Carmelite Order, is the most well-known. In A.D. 16 July 1251, Our Lady appeared to St. Simon Stock in Cambridge, England after he prayed for help for his Order. She appeared to him with the scapular and said, “Take, beloved son this scapular of thy order as a badge of my confraternity and for thee and all Carmelites a special sign of grace; whoever dies in this garment, will not suffer everlasting fire. It is the sign of salvation, a safeguard in dangers, a pledge of peace and of the covenant.”

Whether this happened exactly in this way or not (St. Simon’s original descriptions of the vision are not extant and the wording may not be exact), the Scapular was given to St. Simon Stock, and the devotion spread and was well-known by the 16th c. What can be safely believed because of papal decree is the promise known as the “Sabbatine Privilege.” The Sabbatine Privilege is the promise that Our Lady will intercede and pray for those in Purgatory who, in earthly life:

-wore the Scapular in good faith;
-were chaste according to their state in life;
-daily recited the Divine Office or, with the permission of one’s Confessor, the Little Office of Our Lady [a shorter form of the Divine Office in honor of the Blessed Virgin Mary, used by certain religious orders and laity. It is similar to the Common of the Blessed Virgin Mary from the Roman Breviary] or the Rosary; and
-departed earthly life in charity.

You can be enrolled in the Confraternity of our Lady of Mount Carmel by any priest. Just obtain a scapular, take it to him to have it blessed, and express your desire for enrollment.

Warning: Some falsely believe that wearing the Brown Scapular offers some sort of guarantee of salvation because of the legendary words attributed to Our Lady. This is against Church teaching, is superstitious and a grave error. Sacramentals are not magical ways to manipulate God; they are Church-instituted rituals/objects that remind us of what we are supposed to be doing/thinking of, that depend on the faith, hope and love of the user, and which help prepare us to receive God’s saving grace. You can get well-made, wool, traditionally-designed Brown Scapulars from this traditional Carmelite Order of nuns. I don’t know the cost:
Rev. Mother Superior
Carmel of the Holy Trinity
S. 4027 Wilbur Road
Spokane, WA 99206
Tel: 509-928-0114]

 

[Jenlyn]

DBT:

After a while the idea of doing this on my own . . . and trying to be my own spiritual director . . . had more downside than upside. But maybe that’s just me.

I know I need a spiritual director. There’s too much information out there to weed through. Let alone understand what I have chosen to read.

Thanks for the kind words. I am in the process of getting in touch with some people in the area. I think this will take some time though. Time I’m willing to wait.

Peace,
Jen

 

[Leo44]

Jenlyn:

To join or not to join-

What moves a person to join? Why not just live the rule? What are the positives for joining?

The devil is working in my head…can you tell?

Jen

Carmelites are formed in “COMMUNITY” you can know all about prayer, St. Teresa, St John of the Cross, but you will not be a Carmelite outside of a Community. The promises you take/make are to the community.

Meetings are about formation, information and fellowship. The actual sharing/wasting time together. If somebody has too many important things to do to spend time relaxing with you they are not going to be good members of the community. The community prays together when you come to meetings, you receive instruction and you discuss together important aspects of the community but there isalso has to be a fellowship part. This is taking a hint from St. Teresa, when she was forming St. John of the Cross to be a discalced Carmelite in chapter 17 in The Book of Foundations, talk about taking him to Valladolid and she said, although there are many things that he could teach me about prayer the only thing I could really teach him was recreation, our style of community. So we take that hint that fellowship is actually part of formation of community. "wasting time together. This is taken from Fr. Deenys talk in July 04 at the LV Congress.

Not everyone is called to this but if you are the call is from GOD, ours is to say yes to HIM

Your Brother in Carmel Leo

 

[FrmrTrad]

Do others find the works of Fr. Thomas Dubay helpful? He has a video series titled “Contemplation”, and one about St Teresa of Avila. He might also have one about St John of the Cross. There’s “Prayer Quest” too. He has a book explaining aspects of spiritual direction, aimed at helping people to become more familiar with it, that they may be able to help themselves whether or not they have a personal spiritual director. He has another fine book called Authenticity, a real gem!

 

[FrmrTrad]

Joysong:

God cannot vacuum us for thorough cleaning until the litter is gone. He works on us gradually to eliminate one sinful habit at a time. There is a good scripture that gives us this picture in the Old Testament, Ex. 23:23-30:

I am always amazed at how Old Testament events are not just true, but perfectly mirror spiritual development. Just another example of God’s infinite perfection, and His ability to work through us sinners!

 

[FrmrTrad]

1) I’ve come to see the “call” as a two-way street.

I have visited Carmelites twice, and am strongly drawn toward the contemplative faith, and toward regular participation in the Church liturgies, i.e. more regular than on Sunday. I can’t imagine anyone being asked to not join the Carmelites; I think people who are less contemplative and, say, more active, may voluntarily withdraw after some discernment.

1. I’ve lived parts of the Rule on my own for a little more than a year, but there is tremendous worth in doing it as part of a community. No longer is this just “God and me” - this is something I can do FOR the Church.

Yes, and as far as I know some secular priests join the order too.

1. The Rule provides a wonderful “rhythm” to daily living. All aspects of life are lived against a backdrop of prayer.

Right! And St Teresa said she was amazed at the sanctity lay people achieve living in the world but living a life of prayer. It can be done!

1. The writings of the Carmelite saints can truely take a lifetime to “absorb.” Their wisdom is meant to be lived rather than just read.

In his book about spiritual direction, Fr Dubay (S.M.) indicates that the doctors of the Church are among the “A-1” readings for spiritual reading, alongside Scripture, so that it is indeed material for a lifetime. One can find new lessons in sections previously read.

 

[DBT]

Hi FrmrTrad -

FrmrTrad:

Do others find the works of Fr. Thomas Dubay helpful?

Yes - His books are wonderful! His book “Fire Within” is used in the formation program here. I’ve also found the Carmelite Studies books put out by ICS to be very good. Sometimes it helps to have someone “interpret” or put into a modern context the wisdom of St. Teresa and St. John.

FrmrTrad:

I can’t imagine anyone being asked to not join the Carmelites; I think people who are less contemplative and, say, more active, may voluntarily withdraw after some discernment.

I think the point I was trying to make here is that the call is a two way street. The individual must believe they have a call and so to must the community. The community side of it was a bit of a suprise to me . . . but actually it makes good sense.

I’m going from memory here (don’t have the constitutions handy), but the type of situations that would prompt a community to determine an individual DID NOT have a call and, therefore, couldn’t join would include things like habitually failing to live the Rule or being a disruptive influence on the community.

I don’t really think it comes down to how “contemplative” one is - it’s more about commitment and perserverence. That, I believe, is one of the reasons why the formation process is so long (5-6 years?) - so that the type of problems mentioned here have ample time to be resolved prior to the time of the Final Promise.

I haven’t been around long enough . . . but hopefully being asked not to join is a pretty rare event.

 

[DBT]

Leo44:

Carmelites are formed in “COMMUNITY” you can know all about prayer, St. Teresa, St John of the Cross, but you will not be a Carmelite outside of a Community. The promises you take/make are to the community.

Meetings are about formation, information and fellowship. The actual sharing/wasting time together. If somebody has too many important things to do to spend time relaxing with you they are not going to be good members of the community. The community prays together when you come to meetings, you receive instruction and you discuss together important aspects of the community but there isalso has to be a fellowship part. This is taking a hint from St. Teresa, when she was forming St. John of the Cross to be a discalced Carmelite in chapter 17 in The Book of Foundations, talk about taking him to Valladolid and she said, although there are many things that he could teach me about prayer the only thing I could really teach him was recreation, our style of community. So we take that hint that fellowship is actually part of formation of community. "wasting time together. This is taken from Fr. Deenys talk in July 04 at the LV Congress.

Not everyone is called to this but if you are the call is from GOD, ours is to say yes to HIM

Your Brother in Carmel Leo

Very good points Leo!

 

[drforjc]

I have a question that maybe some of you secular Carmelites could address–
Do you think a certain personality type is preferred or required to “succeed” (not the word I wanted but for lack of a better one) in Carmel?
All you who indicate you are secular or lay Carmelites seem so calm, prayerful, joyful, peaceful, even-tempered (I could keep going).
Do you think someone who is a bit impetuous/judgemental/anxious would have trouble?
I mean, can the serious and devoted practice of Carmelite spirituality gradually change/refine/smooth out someone or is that person doomed to fail if they don’t have that sort of temperament by nature?

 

[Jenlyn]

Leo44:

Meetings are about formation, information and fellowship. The actual sharing/wasting time together.
Your Brother in Carmel Leo

This sounds wonderful!! Not truly wasting time because so much can be learned from those of like minds. If this is “wasting” time, I’m for it.

A community would be good for my temperment. To try this on my own would be like wading in a river, not sure in which direction to go.

Thank you!
Jen

 

[Jenlyn]

drforjc:

Do you think someone who is a bit impetuous/judgemental/anxious would have trouble?
I mean, can the serious and devoted practice of Carmelite spirituality gradually change/refine/smooth out someone or is that person doomed to fail if they don’t have that sort of temperament by nature?

Welcome to the thread! I love this one because it is soooo peaceful. I want to put a rating on it but am afraid what it might turn into.

I am not in the order but can say this about what prayer, saying the rosary and reading about the lives of the Saint has done for me.

I am one of those judgemental/ bossy/ controlling/ selfish, I could go on. I used to be a very angry person. But through all my reading and praying God has changed me. I have looked at my life and seen some of my weaknesses. Through examining my conscience and penance I am attempting to tackle those mentioned above. Humility is the big thing I want probably because I lack it. Pride is keeping me from it. So I look at ways that boost my pride and deny myself. For instance the doctor makes me wait a 1/2 hour past my appointment time, I look at is as a way to learn patience. I also look at it as a way to pay for my sins in a very small way. I deserve to wait. I hope this makes sense. The best Saint to read about this is St. Theresa. She is know for her “little way.” So I am changing because of the influences, Saints books, that I have surrounded myself. I would venture to say that the Franciscans and the other orders are just as peaceful etc.

I am drawn to the Carmelites. I love prayer. Everything I read is from this order. I like the rule, which is on my computer screen.

I will bow out now because I know the others can express the answers to your question better.

Peace to you,
Jen

 

[DBT]

Jenlyn:

I am one of those judgemental/ bossy/ controlling/ selfish, I could go on. I used to be a very angry person. But through all my reading and praying God has changed me. I have looked at my life and seen some of my weaknesses. Through examining my conscience and penance I am attempting to tackle those mentioned above. Humility is the big thing I want probably because I lack it. Pride is keeping me from it. So I look at ways that boost my pride and deny myself. For instance the doctor makes me wait a 1/2 hour past my appointment time, I look at is as a way to learn patience. I also look at it as a way to pay for my sins in a very small way

Hi drforjc . . . very well said Jen.

Prayer is about transformation . . . we are all works in progress