Secular criticism of Harry Potter

[Portrait]

One more thing, Portrait. I have another question for you. Silly of me, I know; my last question took you nearly six months to answer, but I like to live a little dangerously, so I’ll ask another and see how long it takes for you to answer this one.

You’re obviously an adult; from your manner of writing I would guess you’re an older adult, perhaps my age, maybe a little older (I’m in my early fifties, so forgive me if you’re younger and feel a little insulted by my guess). You’re not a nine year old child, easily susceptible to suggestion, like the children you’re so worried about who might read the HP series and suddenly become immersed in the occult and Satanism. You’re fully capable of reading a book or a series without fear of the same.

So: what on earth are you afraid will happen to you if you read Harry Potter for yourself?

Dear loveday220,

It is not an issue of fearing what may happen should I decide to read a Potter novel. Rather it is more a matter of not wishing to befoul my soul with culturally unheallthy material - material which has as its central dynamic the world of magic and witchcraft, activities which God calls “an abomination” (see Deut. 18; 9-14) in Sacred Scripture and which our church condemns absolutely. It really is that simple, well for me at any rate.

Several Catholic commentators such as Gabreile Kuby, Matthew Arnold, Vivian Dudro, Steven Wood, Dr. Marie Peters-Ney and Dr, Philip Ney, each in their respective apostolates, have offered well-grounded criticisms regarding the HP books and films. Whilst these people, like myself, are presently voicing a minority viewpoint on the matter, I am firmly of the opinion that in the process of time the situation will change as more people begin to revisit the HP books and think twice about what actually is being communicated through them. Perhaps their eyes will be opened to perceive that the HP novels truly are “subtle seductions” (Cardinal Ratzinger, now Pope Benedict XVI). Please God may it be so.

Whatever side of the debate we happen to be on and no matter how passionate we feel, we must all, myself included, avoid the temptation to fratfricidal fights and *ad hominem *attacks which serve no good and must delight our adversary the Devil no end. We have points to make but let us behave like gentlemen and make them in love and truth, praying for our opponents in the controversy.

Warmest good wishes and prayers,

Portrait

“The battle belongs to God!” (David when confronting Goliath)

 

[Loveday220]

Dear loveday220,

It is not an issue of fearing what may happen should I decide to read a Potter novel. Rather it is more a matter of not wishing to befoul my soul with culturally unheallthy material - material which has as its central dynamic the world of magic and witchcraft, activities which God calls “an abomination” (see Deut. 18; 9-14) in Sacred Scripture and which our church condemns absolutely. It really is that simple, well for me at any rate.

Several Catholic commentators such as Gabreile Kuby, Matthew Arnold, Vivian Dudro, Steven Wood, Dr. Marie Peters-Ney and Dr, Philip Ney, each in their respective apostolates, have offered well-grounded criticisms regarding the HP books and films. Whilst these people, like myself, are presently voicing a minority viewpoint on the matter, I am firmly of the opinion that in the process of time the situation will change as more people begin to revisit the HP books and think twice about what actually is being communicated through them. Perhaps their eyes will be opened to perceive that the HP novels truly are “subtle seductions” (Cardinal Ratzinger, now Pope Benedict XVI). Please God may it be so.

Whatever side of the debate we happen to be on and no matter how passionate we feel, we must all, myself included, avoid the temptation to fratfricidal fights and *ad hominem *attacks which serve no good and must delight our adversary the Devil no end. We have points to make but let us behave like gentlemen and make them in love and truth, praying for our opponents in the controversy.

Warmest good wishes and prayers,

Portrait

“The battle belongs to God!” (David when confronting Goliath)

Although I completely disagree with you on ALL points concerning HP, I do want to make it clear that I respect your *personal *choice. I wish you would at least *try *to see the other side of the story before posting so strongly against it, but I see that that will never happen. A pity, because you’re missing out on something that’s simply a wonderful reading experience, nothing more, nothing less. That’s your decision, of course, and again, I respect that.

Your reading choices are your own, but trust us, please, to make our own educated choices, for ourselves *and *for our children. Respect OUR choices, please.

And yes…the battle does indeed belong to God. .

 

[Portrait]

Portrait, how up are you on your history of western literature? Are you aware that Dickens, Swift, Stevenson, and Shakespeare were the pop fiction writers of their day, just as Rowling, Stephen King, and Dan Brown are of ours? Are you aware that people would wait anxiously for weeks and months for the next instalments of Dickens’ stories, EXACTLY as people around the world waited for the next Harry Potter novel?

If you were to do some serious research into many of these so-called ‘classics’ authors, you might be surprised to find that they were considered anything *but *, in their day and age. I’m not saying J K Rowling’s books will someday be considered as classic as Dickens’, but believe me, at certain points of his career, quite a few of the literati found his work to be rather unworthy and inferior. So the idea that the giants of classic literature have always been recognised as such, is quite a fallacy.

Dear Loveday220,

The likes of Rowling and Messers Brown and King should not even be mentioned in the same sentence as Dickens et al. Why that is a gross indignity if ever there was! These literary pygmies are eminently forgettable and will shortly be lost in the mists of time, the remembrance of them will soon fade, notwithstanding their current trendiness. Dickens and the other Giants of fictional literature will be remembered until the end of time.

Whilst it is true that the intelligensia did find Dickens work second rate or at least mediocre , history has proved it otherwise; I think I can say without fear of contradiction that that will never be the case with Rowling and the other two gentlemen. I rest my case.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

PS Thankyou for the above post. Will duly note what you have said about respecting other people’s book choices. In the final analysis every man must be fully persuaded in his own mind regarding this topic and act accordingly.

 

[curlycool89]

Good and evil are very distinct in the books, as has been explained to you time and time again. What’s right is always portrayed as right; what’s wrong is always portrayed as wrong. And good wins in the end - in the end of every book.

I don’t want to nit pick, but evil does start to win a lot starting at the end of book 6. But then again, 6 and 7 more than any other books are really meant to be read together and the story truly continues (the other books kind of have a vague connecting plot of “defeat evil”, but 7 really continues the exact plot of 6).

No. You’ll just have to trust me on this, but Harry and other “good” characters often make poor decisions which are, ultimately, exposed as poor decisions at the end of each book.

Too true. When they make bad decisions it always comes back to bite them.

This objection is the same as the one raised by Brendan, although he was helpful enough to actually give a specific example. Thus I will attempt to lay it to rest once and for all by looking at the most morally ambigous moment in the entire series: the euthanizing of Dumbledore - at his own request - by Severus Snape.

And I believe Snape asked him several times not to make him do it. At his death Dumbledore pleads for Snape to do it because Snape obviously doesn’t want to do it (I think the movie portrayed it quite well. Snape did not look pleased with himself at all. He didn’t seem very happy that he did it, he very much so seems to realize the wrongness of his actions).

There is little to distinguish the HP novels other than their unprecedented sales records and their ability to mesmerize a host of readers. Certainly Rowling can spin a good yarn but her writing skills are decidedly unexceptional and her literary style is irritatingly puerile. Her “vision” comes nowhere near the artistry and depth of say Tolkien or C.S. Lewis.

Something’s not adding up Potrait. You haven’t read the books, and now your comparing her writing style to Tolkien and Lewis? How can you personally tell that if you haven’t read the books? Or is this more verbatim copying from other’s reviews?

In the ten years or so that I have followed the HP phenomenon, I have never once heard of a single parent who allowed their kids to read only Harry Potter novels. I’m sorry, but this is pretty silly.

Even look at us. I haven’t read Harry Potter since the last one came out (what’s that, Summer '08?). Since then I’ve read about 2 dozen other books and re-read The Lord of the Rings (I seriously love that book. I might reading it again sometime, but I’ve currently got 6 books on my “to read” list so probably not anytime soon). I’ve also read all the other Tolkien books (except for the new one Christopher Tolkien released), but those were dispersed between the other Potter books.

I don’t know if I’ve said it before, but HP actually led me to read LOTR.

It is not an issue of fearing what may happen should I decide to read a Potter novel. Rather it is more a matter of not wishing to befoul my soul with culturally unheallthy material - material which has as its central dynamic the world of magic and witchcraft, activities which God calls “an abomination” (see Deut. 18; 9-14) in Sacred Scripture and which our church condemns absolutely. It really is that simple, well for me at any rate.

Funny, I must have missed the new dogmatic constitution banning the reading of fantasy fiction.

The Church (not people of the Church, but the Church itself) has never said that reading can be bad for you (except for Dan Brown, but the issue there isn’t so much moral as it is making up an alternative history where the Church is evil and telling everyone it’s true when anyone with more than 2 neurons firing knows that it’s false).

Whilst it is true that the intelligensia did find Dickens work second rate or at least mediocre , history has proved it otherwise; I think I can say without fear of contradiction that that will never be the case with Rowling and the other two gentlemen. I rest my case.

Oh, can you see the future now? Can you tell me what the lotto number for this week is?

You can’t make a case based on what may or may not happen in the future. That’s just sloppy arguing.

 

[SugarMagnolia]

I will have to go back yet again and re read this entire thread to catch the Bloom references. I don’t recall a whole raft of posters discussing him, but hey, this thread goes back a long way, so I should refresh my memory.

By the way, literary merit does not cancel out entertainment value. Just thought I’d throw that out there.

**Agreed! **

So was I, and I encouraged my children along the same lines. I missed very few children’s classics, and was reading many adult classics by the time I was nine or ten. As well, I read as much popular children’s fiction as I could get my hands on.

In the ten years or so that I have followed the HP phenomenon, I have never once heard of a single parent who allowed their kids to read only Harry Potter novels. I’m sorry, but this is pretty silly.

**I have heard it expressed a great deal. But just to make sure my comment is not misunderstood: I’m saying there are parents who allow their children to read only HP (not parents who only allow their children to read HP). In other words, the children want to read HP, but nothing else, and the parents are okay with this. I didn’t mean there were parents who would not allow their children to read anything other than HP, which would indeed be silly. However, if my comment was understood and you still think it’s silly, well–I have heard parents say,“It doesn’t matter what they read, as long as they’re reading something” and this is too sad to be silly. I also had a colleague several years ago at a Catholic school who was the librarian for the elementary school students and she complained that the children wanted to read nothing but Goosebumps books. She tried to persuade the children to read other books. She even took to the policy that every child borrowing a Goosebumps book would also have to check out another book with it. However, the parents refused to support her policy. **

I totally agree with this. But nowhere in this thread has anyone suggested otherwise. *I *certainly haven’t suggested that kids should read huge amounts of HP. But how much is a huge amount? My daughter has read all the books as they came out (except the first three–she was too young when they first came out, so she read those three just before Goblet of Fire came out in 2000), and now, once in awhile, she’ll pick one up and re-read it, in amongst all the other reading she does. I do the same thing–with many favourite books, not just HP; I think I’ve read Jane Eyre a dozen times in my life, is that too much?–so I see nothing wrong with that. And no child I know or have heard or read of, has been so into HP that they steadfastly refuse to read anything else and are constantly doing nothing but reading HP. That would suggest a problem that has nothing to do with HP and everything to do with something else inherent in the child.

A huge amount would be what I describe above: Children who want to read HP and nothing esle and whose parents are okay with this. I’m not speaking of anyone in this thread. I have heard this from parents in RL. Your daughter reads HP in addition to other reading, but it sounds to me like you’re setting an example by reading such authors as Austin and Bronte. Not all parents set such examples for their children. Many parents do not read literature. In fact, many do not read books at all.

 

[SugarMagnolia]

Dear SugarMagnolia,

There is little to distinguish the HP novels other than their unprecedented sales records and their ability to mesmerize a host of readers. Certainly Rowling can spin a good yarn but her writing skills are decidedly unexceptional and her literary style is irritatingly puerile. Her “vision” comes nowhere near the artistry and depth of say Tolkien or C.S. Lewis.

Her “works” are the product of the superficial and frivilous age in which our lot is cast; a previous generation, who drank from the wells of the great literary and cultured classics such as Dickens, Swift, Robert Louis Stevenson and Shakespeare, would have given the thumbs down to this inane hogwash. Indeed the literati of that day would have exposed the Potter books as utterly unworthy and inferior texts, likely to corrupt public morals and lead the young and unsophisicated, especially, from the path of virtue into error and sin.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

I agree with everything you say with the exception of this: likely to corrupt public morals and lead the young and unsophisicated, especially, from the path of virtue into error and sin. I’m not really concerned with the magic and witchcraft in the book simply because it’s high fantasy. It does not at all resemble the practices of modern day Wicca or other such New Age “religions.” Thus, I don’t think it’s likely to steer children away from Catholicism.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

It was not my intention to purposely keep you, or any other fellow poster, in a state of suspense over the question of my reading of the HP books, I just do not deem it to be an issue of crucial importance as you seem to think it is.

However, the answer to the question is: No I have never polluted my mind by reading such unwholesome and unsavoury material.

Then you are sir have just shot yourself in the foot. Only an idiot would insist on being right about things of this level without actually having read the thing he is criticizing.

Most people would accept that reading trusted reviews and in-depth analysis of any work is quite sufficient for the purposes of debate, after all one is engaging in a debate not writing a book review. In the course of my research on HP I have read various reviews, articles and analysis from various sources, both pro and con. What I have read convinces me that picking up a Potter book to read from cover to cover would be not only be time-consumming but also mind polluting. Similarly, I have never read The Davinci Code, yet I have read articles and reviews that show it to be arrant nonsense of the first rank so I give it a wide berth; why on earth do I need to waste my time reading such inferior fiction?

Trusted reviews? As a critic myself, no review is 100% trustworthy. You forget that reviews are no more than different people’s opinion put on a pedestal. For example, I was hesitant to watch the movie Avatar (James Cameron’s Pocahontas rip off) because one of my fellow critics blasted the movie for its typical, predictable, and overdone plot line. Guess what? No matter how much I felt inclined to agree with him, I still felt this nagging in me that if I should ever blast the movie myself, I really had to go see it and confirm what I have heard.

You know what your problem is? It’s not because you find reading Harry Potter a waste of time. It’s not because you deem it for your oh-so-wholesome-and-holy mind. It’s because you lack confidence in your stand. You can’t form your own opinion just like every other person who hurts the Church by reinforcing the Blind Sheep stereotype.

Now of course people are quite free to ignore my critique and censures of the HP novels and even treat them with the contempt that they imagine that they rightly deserve; however the one thing that they cannot do on a public forum is prevent me from expressing my viewpoint, however much they disagree with it. As long as I feel passionately and deeply concerned about the Potter books I shall, God willing, continue to submit unfavourable and negative evaluations.

And we shall continue refuting them and exposing them to be what they actually are: outdated, long refuted, long settled notions that only paranoid fundamentalists were supposed to hold. Waving a magic stick and saying dog Latin won’t get you any nearer to shooting out fire than forming weird symbols in your hand.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

Her “works” are the product of the superficial and frivilous age in which our lot is cast; a previous generation, who drank from the wells of the great literary and cultured classics such as Dickens, Swift, Robert Louis Stevenson and Shakespeare, would have given the thumbs down to this inane hogwash. Indeed the literati of that day would have exposed the Potter books as utterly unworthy and inferior texts, likely to corrupt public morals and lead the young and unsophisicated, especially, from the path of virtue into error and sin.

Yet Shakespeare employed the same heavy amount of magical themes in some of his plays. And by the way? They’d say the same thing about their morals. For you to actually cite them as some sort of example really strikes you as very hypocritical Portrait and I wouldn’t do that again if I were you till you at least thrown out your idea that these books promote witchcraft.

 

[SugarMagnolia]

Dear Loveday220,

The likes of Rowling and Messers Brown and King should not even be mentioned in the same sentence as Dickens et al. Why that is a gross indignity if ever there was! These literary pygmies are eminently forgettable and will shortly be lost in the mists of time, the remembrance of them will soon fade, notwithstanding their current trendiness. Dickens and the other Giants of fictional literature will be remembered until the end of time.

Whilst it is true that the intelligensia did find Dickens work second rate or at least mediocre , history has proved it otherwise; I think I can say without fear of contradiction that that will never be the case with Rowling and the other two gentlemen. I rest my case.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

PS Thankyou for the above post. Will duly note what you have said about respecting other people’s book choices. In the final analysis every man must be fully persuaded in his own mind regarding this topic and act accordingly.

Agreed 100%.
**

The likes of Rowling and Messers Brown and King should not even be mentioned in the same sentence as Dickens et al. Why that is a gross indignity if ever there was!**

A few years ago I was teaching an English course to college seniors. Unlike most universities, this one did not allow faculty members to select their own texts. A text was assigned. It was a poetry text and when I received it I was indignant. There were many questionable selections but none as horrible as this: a sonnet by Shakespeare and on the page facing it a lyric by Run DMC. Talk about a gross indignity!

 

[Portrait]

Agreed 100%.
**

The likes of Rowling and Messers Brown and King should not even be mentioned in the same sentence as Dickens et al. Why that is a gross indignity if ever there was!**

A few years ago I was teaching an English course to college seniors. Unlike most universities, this one did not allow faculty members to select their own texts. A text was assigned. It was a poetry text and when I received it I was indignant. There were many questionable selections but none as horrible as this: a sonnet by Shakespeare and on the page facing it a lyric by Run DMC. Talk about a gross indignity!

Dear SugarMagnolia,

Your experience on that English course only serves to illustrate the decline and loss of excellence (I think the modern term is “dumbing down”) in standards of education generally. We have the exact same problems here in the U.K. Alas, our children are being starved of good, wholsome literature of surpassing merit and quality. Therefore, given this lamentable deterioration of academic standards in our schools, it is hardly surprising that the HP books have enjoyed the global success that they have and that Harry Potter himself has attained pop culture icon status.

It is a fact that many university undergraduates here in Britain have to attend remedial classes in both English and Maths because the required level of literacy and numeracy for a university education is well below par. This would have been unheard of only thirty years ago and so people are starting to become extremely concerned and are asking awkward questions. Some feel that trendy methods in education, introduced in the 1960’s and 70’s, have played a major part in the present decline and I would concur wholeheartedly with that opinion.

Surely the urgent need of the hour is a return to the reading of classical literature by our young people and the re-instatement of tried and trusted teaching methods in education. When this happens the works of the Rowling’s, King’s and Run DMC’s of this world will be exposed for the utter balderdash that they are and people once again will be able to discern what is and what is not culturally healthy reading material.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

Surely the urgent need of the hour is a return to the reading of classical literature by our young people and the re-instatement of tried and trusted teaching methods in education. When this happens the works of the Rowling’s, King’s and Run DMC’s of this world will be exposed for the utter balderdash that they are and people once again will be able to discern what is and what is not culturally healthy reading material.

Yet more than half of classic literature is filled with the same heavy use of fantasy imagery and moral ambiguity that you find so disdainful in Harry Potter.

 

[Fone_Bone_2001]

Apparently no good deed goes unpunished. I provide a little education on the subject which is my area of expertise and get shouted down for it.
Fine. Believe whatever you like. And hang on your wall a picture of dogs
playing poker and claim it is the artistic equivalent of the Sistine ceiling.

Spiffy rhetoric, SugarMagnolia.

I’m serious, though. You make good points in your subsequent posts (some of which I’ve quoted and responded to below), but why on earth did you come in here and assert that Harry Potter is not “literature”? I could totally understand the assertion that it’s pop literature, not serious art, pure entertainment (even if I disagree). But it is literature, good or bad…

Perhaps you misunderstood my intention. I only intended to provide a little education to the many folks here who didn’t seem to understand Bloom’s criticism of Harry Potter. I never suggested that no one here understands; but based on the responses it seemed that most people did not understand. I wasn’t pompous.

No one has mentioned Bloom’s criticism of Harry Potter, not even you - you merely alluded to it. So what was there in this thread to misunderstand?

This was implied by those who disgreed with Bloom without understanding Bloom.

I could be wrong, but weren’t you the first person in this thread to bring up Harold Bloom? Even if you weren’t, he certainly hadn’t been mentioned before your arrival except in passing…

Many responses were of the order of: “I disagree with Bloom because I enjoyed the book.”

Maybe I completely missed something, but I’m not being coy when I ask who on earth in this thread was addressing Bloom’s arguments. Who even mentioned him besides you? I don’t remember anyone arguing with him…

I was making a distinction between entertainment value and literary merit, and this is a distinction people may not be aware of if they have studied literary criticism.

Oh, of course. Still, I hesitate to drive too great wedge between the two (although some distinction is obviously necessary) both for historical reasons (others have discussed this already) and because there ought to be a connection between the two - i.e. people ought to find great literature enjoyable (or at least engaging), and their souls ought to be “large” enough not to mistake mere enjoyment (which is perfectly okay!) for a sign of literary greatness.

For instance, I know someone who enjoyed reading Twilight but admitted it was garbage. I can’t for the life of me imagine how she could have enjoyed it at all, but I also can’t argue with her, since there’s nothing to argue with: there was no claim that it was a truly good book.

I don’t take myself too seriously. On the contrary, I enjoy works of entertainment as well as works of great art and literature. I just make a distinction between them. I can’t comment on whether the Harry Potter books are entertaining because I have not read them nor do I intend to read them. I have seen some of the movie adaptations on TV and they were somewhat entertaining. I’m not a cinemaphile, so I have no objection to watching movies for the sole purpose of relaxing at the end of the day.

I personally can’t stand the Harry Potter movies. I’ll even go so far as to say that I have found all but the first two or three to be downright trite compared to the books on which they’re based, which far outstrip their cinematic counterparts in attention to detail, imagery, pacing, depth, etc.

That doesn’t make them bad movies, of course, but I can’t enjoy them since I’m always comparing them to the books. (I don’t mind The Lord of the Rings movies, since I don’t even think of them as a substitute for the novel.)

On the other hand, I don’t think such books are suitable for children unless those children learn at an early age to distinguish between entertainment and literature. As a child, I was a bookworm and read fantasy novels along side of classic children’s literature. I think people do a disservice to their children if they allow them to read only Harry Potter.

I honestly don’t think a kid who gets into Harry Potter would want to stop there. Someone on this thread even said that Harry Potter led him (her?) to read The Lord of the Rings.

It is the equivalent (yes, I’m fond on analogies) of allowing children to eat only junk food. Parents sometimes say, “It doesn’t matter what they read, as long as they’re reading something.” But I don’t think those parents would say, “It doesn’t matter what they eat, as long as they’re eating something.” Eating junk food is fine in small amounts in addition to healthy meals. Reading books like Harry Potter is fine in small amounts as long as it’s in addition to children’s literature.

Harry Potter is children’s literature. Not young children, of course, but it’s certainly on par with The Chronicles of Narnia in terms of literary merit (although the target audience is definitely a little different in terms of age range). I reject the notion that it’s the equivalent of junk food.

Now, the fact that it is written for a young adult audience does justify the assertion that it’s simpler and easier than literature written for adults. That is true.

I don’t want to nit pick, but evil does start to win a lot starting at the end of book 6. But then again, 6 and 7 more than any other books are really meant to be read together and the story truly continues (the other books kind of have a vague connecting plot of “defeat evil”, but 7 really continues the exact plot of 6).

Oh, you’re right; thanks for clarifying what I said.

I don’t know if I’ve said it before, but HP actually led me to read LOTR.

That’s awesome!

I agree with everything you say with the exception of this: likely to corrupt public morals and lead the young and unsophisicated, especially, from the path of virtue into error and sin. I’m not really concerned with the magic and witchcraft in the book simply because it’s high fantasy. It does not at all resemble the practices of modern day Wicca or other such New Age “religions.” Thus, I don’t think it’s likely to steer children away from Catholicism.

Well said. Although I would also add in response to Portrait’s assertion that “the literati of that day would have exposed the Potter books as utterly unworthy and inferior texts” the fact that “the literati of that day” also thought they were exposing Dickens as inferior, as others have emphasized before me in this thread.

Portrait:

The likes of Rowling and Messers Brown and King should not even be mentioned in the same sentence as Dickens et al. Why that is a gross indignity if ever there was

And I really don’t think Rowling should be lumped in with Dan Brown. He is pretty bad…

One more point:

Since several people here have made predictions about the ultimate fate of Harry Potter. I predict the series will live on to the same extent The Wonderful Wizard of Oz has.

 

[Loveday220]

Spiffy rhetoric, SugarMagnolia.

No one has mentioned Bloom’s criticism of Harry Potter, not even you - you merely alluded to it. So what was there in this thread to misunderstand?

I could be wrong, but weren’t you the first person in this thread to bring up Harold Bloom? Even if you weren’t, he certainly hadn’t been mentioned before your arrival except in passing…

Maybe I completely missed something, but I’m not being coy when I ask who on earth in this thread was addressing Bloom’s arguments. Who even mentioned him besides you? I don’t remember anyone arguing with him…

So I’m not the only one wondering where all the Bloom references were! Thank you! I was beginning to think I was going crazy. Whew!

That doesn’t make them bad movies, of course, but I can’t enjoy them since I’m always comparing them to the books.

I enjoyed the films up to the most recent one. I was able, most of the time, to keep book and film separate in my mind, even if things were left out that I thought were vital (although why Cuaron didn’t explain the Marauder’s Map in PoA still rankles!). But Half-Blood Prince was a big disappointment to me. Too *many *vital things were either left out or changed beyond all recognition. I remain cautiously hopeful for the two Deathly Hallows films, but I’m not holding my breath.

Harry Potter is children’s literature. Not young children, of course, but it’s certainly on par with The Chronicles of Narnia in terms of literary merit (although the target audience is definitely a little different in terms of age range). I reject the notion that it’s the equivalent of junk food.

Now, the fact that it is written for a young adult audience does justify the assertion that it’s simpler and easier than literature written for adults. That is true.

I agree.

And I really don’t think Rowling should be lumped in with Dan Brown. He is pretty bad…

That was an awful faux pas on my part, I must admit. I have to say on reflection that Dan Brown shouldn’t even be lumped in with Stephen King. Maybe with Stephenie Meyer?

One more point:

Since several people here have made predictions about the ultimate fate of Harry Potter. I predict the series will live on to the same extent The Wonderful Wizard of Oz has.

 

[SugarMagnolia]

No one has mentioned Bloom’s criticism of Harry Potter, not even you - you merely alluded to it. So what was there in this thread to misunderstand?

I could be wrong, but weren’t you the first person in this thread to bring up Harold Bloom? Even if you weren’t, he certainly hadn’t been mentioned before your arrival except in passing…

Maybe I completely missed something, but I’m not being coy when I ask who on earth in this thread was addressing Bloom’s arguments. Who even mentioned him besides you? I don’t remember anyone arguing with him…

So I’m not the only one wondering where all the Bloom references were! Thank you! I was beginning to think I was going crazy. Whew!

The OP.

 

[curlycool89]

I honestly don’t think a kid who gets into Harry Potter would want to stop there. Someone on this thread even said that Harry Potter led him (her?) to read The Lord of the Rings.

That would be “him” for future reference

But ya, HP lead me to read LOTR. It was actually the movies in fact.

The Harry Potter movies started coming out at the same time the LOTR movies did, and the fanboy in me immediately pegged it as a “competitor” or even “advisory” to HP so I hated it on principle (I said things like “who kills a main character in the first movie?!”). Something in me started to get interested in the Lord of the Rings though, and eventually I decided to read the books (I don’t remember why, but it was probably to see what all the fuss was about). One of the best ideas I even had.

 

[Loveday220]

The OP.

Ah, yes. Thank you. I was working my way backward through the thread, scanning for references. Hadn’t made it quite that far back yet.

Funny, though, it took only one post to turn this thread from a discussion of secular criticism of the HP series to a debate over whether it was morally okay for Catholics to read it. That was post number 7, written by Portrait way back in September, who effectively hijacked this thread to preach against the series from a religious (NON-secular) standpoint. One or two others tried to steer the discussion back to the secular, but in vain. So you can hardly blame me for totally forgetting the original point of this thread, can you?

 

[Portrait]

Ah, yes. Thank you. I was working my way backward through the thread, scanning for references. Hadn’t made it quite that far back yet.

Funny, though, it took only one post to turn this thread from a discussion of secular criticism of the HP series to a debate over whether it was morally okay for Catholics to read it. That was post number 7, written by Portrait way back in September, who effectively hijacked this thread to preach against the series from a religious (NON-secular) standpoint. One or two others tried to steer the discussion back to the secular, but in vain. So you can hardly blame me for totally forgetting the original point of this thread, can you?

Dear Loveday220,

There was no deliberate intention on my part to seize control of the thread in order to fulminate against the HP novels from a Christian perspective. My original response was to the article by this Bloom fellow (cited by OP), but because this is an issue about which I have strong Christian convictions and very decided opinions, I found it exceedingly difficult to hold my peace once I had got in full swing.

Moreover, back in September 09 I was relativlely new to CAF and was unaware of “advanced searches” on a specific topic, so I just alighted on this thread as it did at least deal with HP, albeit from the secular angle.

However, I feel that I have more than outstayed my welcome and so I am now going to bow out of this debate so as to allow others to discuss this issue purely from a secular standpoint - prehaps even “fantasy forever” will return to the debate! Besides I do not feel that I have annything further to say about HP for the time being.

It only remains for me to bid you all farewell and to say thankyou for a very stimulating discussion of what is evidently a highly emotive topic, even among orthodox Catholics. Truly, I have thoroughly enjoyed our debate and look forward to doing it again in the not too distant future.

Blessings be upon you all and may God’s peace be yours now and always.

Warmest good wishes and prayers,

Portrait