Secular criticism of Harry Potter

[Lost_Wanderer]

First, it is the cumulative force of the Barna survey taken as a composite whole which I think is quite significant, rather than isolated strands or aspects of it. However, it is incontrovertible that the HP books/films have fostered an unhealthy curiosity in occutic subcultures by a considerable number of children. An article that appeared some while ago on the *Onion News *website would seem to put that beyond dispute. The deeply disturbing declarations of young children contained in the article could surely be replicated many times over, indeed the odds against them being so replicated are extraordinarily slim.

theonion.com/content/news/harry_potter_books_spark_rise_in

I’m sorry. You’re quoting The Onion!?



I can’t believe this! Thanks for making my day!! XD

Second, the survey does actually validate what I initially was endeavouring show, vis-a-vis that a small minority of children are hooked into the occultic subcultures. This is surely an inescapable conclusion of which it is futile to deny. Of that 12% who said they were more interested in actual witchcraft after reading a HP novel or watching a film, it simply beggars belief to assert that none out of this number would be enticed into the occult. This, I would contend, is grave cause for concern and cannot be shrugged-off with blithe indifference. We are talking of young precious souls for whom our Lord died. Moreover, that they might be a small number should in no wise cause us any less disquietude; was not our Lord very concerned with just “one” lost sheep (see St. Lk. 15 3-7)? This clearly demonstrates God’s care for the individual sinner and the great value that He places upon a single soul. That requires no further comment from me. Yes a single lost child to the occult is one single child too many.

The problem is that with such a low percentage, Harry Potter does not even begin to be a threat. Furthermore, the survey doesn’t explore other possibilities for the mental lapses of such children. It just takes data and it’s people like you who interpret it without thinking. Like I said, I’d be willing to bet heavily that if you replace Harry Potter with Star Wars there would also be a 12% chance of kids getting into real UFOlogy.

Any book or film that would even arouse the curiosity of the young and susceptible in the occult should be mercilessly denounced in the strongest terms. Such a book/film is culturally unhealthy and potentially dangerous and should therefore be given a wide birth by all devout Catholics. Regrettably HP falls into this category, hence my unfavourable and negative appraisal - “Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them” (Eph. 4: 11).

Then denounce Tolkien as well. Then again, it’s quite clear that anything with magic is something you think every Catholic should be “given wide birth”.

Finally, do you dismiss Marcia Montenegro’s extensive and painstaking research simply because you consider her a fundamentalist? Personally I think she has persuasively argued her case and I have yet to read of anyone in the Pro-Potter camp who has exposed her actual arguments as spurious by giving solid examples.

Her “experience” and her “credentials”, at best, only classify her as an expert on pagan myths. Fantasy writers will always naturally draw from myths as their basis for the cosmology of their fictional universe. It does not in anyway mean they advocate the pagan religions that gave birth to those myths. To suggest that it does means we should ban a majority of all fiction altogether (from Dante and Shakespeare to Tolkien and Lewis).

 

[Loveday220]

Dear curlycool89,

First, it is the cumulative force of the Barna survey taken as a composite whole which I think is quite significant, rather than isolated strands or aspects of it. However, it is incontrovertible that the HP books/films have fostered an unhealthy curiosity in occutic subcultures by a considerable number of children. An article that appeared some while ago on the *Onion News *website would seem to put that beyond dispute. The deeply disturbing declarations of young children contained in the article could surely be replicated many times over, indeed the odds against them being so replicated are extraordinarily slim.

theonion.com/content/news/harry_potter_books_spark_rise_in

Portrait

Portrait, with all due respect, I have to point out that The Onion is *not *a serious news and information source. It is complete satire, plain and simple. Occasionally, one of their articles leaks out into mainstream media where most people are totally unaware of its satirical bent, and they believe it as fact. Please, don’t use The Onion to illustrate any of your points.

 

[curlycool89]

I was going to come and point out the The Onion is an undeniable satire of the news (my favourite one is still the one about the voting machines “revealing the winer” of the 2008 election months before the primaries were over ) , but it seems that people beat me to it. The Onion is intentionally a farce. The article on HP is actually listed on The Onion’s Wikipedia page as one of the articles that mainstream people have been duped into taking seriously.

Her “experience” and her “credentials”, at best, only classify her as an expert on pagan myths. Fantasy writers will always naturally draw from myths as their basis for the cosmology of their fictional universe. It does not in anyway mean they advocate the pagan religions that gave birth to those myths. To suggest that it does means we should ban a majority of all fiction altogether (from Dante and Shakespeare to Tolkien and Lewis).

Tolken himself wanted to include a sort of Pantheon of “gods”, but he felt it conflicted with his faith too much and went with monotheism + a bunch of lesser angelic beings who have power entrusted to them by Eru (some of them are just blatantly transplanted from Norse mythology). There is no praying or any sort of religion in Tolkien’s world at all really [that probably has something to do with the fact that the *Ainu (the major angels) played a big part in the First Age against the first dark lord, the fallen angel Melkor], and yet we (rightly) celebrate it as one of the greatest Christian tales of all time.

 

[Portrait]

Dear Fellow Posters,

Well it certainly seems that I commited a rather conspicuous indiscretion by citing* Onion News*, how am I going to live that down? However, I wonder if the article to which I appealed is a complete cock-and-bull story devoid of any truth whatsoever?

For the most part modern culture has replaced the splendour and wonder of existence with cheap thrills. The HP series is nothing more than a full-blown orgy of cheap thrills, dipped in a little pseudo-morality The morality is thin; the corrupt messages, both overt and subliminal, are overwhelming.

I am deeply unhappy by the promotion of the Potter series in certain Christian circles, even among some Catholic academics. Prehaps this is due in part at least to their naivete about the sheer power of fantasy fiction, or again it might be a reluctance to want to be seen calling for sanctity and separation from the world - sounding too much like a joyless Puritan prigg . Possibly it is an overreliance on individual reason, as if to say, “I am so intelligent and my child is so intelligent, that we can take our pleasure in the irrational and the corrupt and remain impervious to it, and therefore it is not really corrupt at all”. The fact is that a powerful work of fantasy, replete with emotional stimuli, can be a major influence in implanting concepts and symbols deep in a child’s mind - one could say in the architecture of their mind.

By the way, if there is one thing that Marcia Montenegro has done exceedingly well it is to delineate in great detail the close connection between the “fantasy” magic of HP’s world and the real world of witchcraft and sorcery, with which she is well tutored in and well informed. Now it is this close connection that is just too close for comfort to many discerning Catholic parent’s. Of course not every single child who reads HP or watches the films will venture into the occult, but, alas, many will and that is why these books are wholly unacceptable and should be altogether avoided by the faithful and their children - what if it was your child that started dabbling in the occult as a consequence of interest first stimulated by reading HP books?

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

 

[Loveday220]

Dear Fellow Posters,

Well it certainly seems that I commited a rather conspicuous indiscretion by citing* Onion News*, how am I going to live that down? However, I wonder if the article to which I appealed is a complete cock-and-bull story devoid of any truth whatsoever?

For the most part modern culture has replaced the splendour and wonder of existence with cheap thrills. The HP series is nothing more than a full-blown orgy of cheap thrills, dipped in a little pseudo-morality The morality is thin; the corrupt messages, both overt and subliminal, are overwhelming.

I am deeply unhappy by the promotion of the Potter series in certain Christian circles, even among some Catholic academics. Prehaps this is due in part at least to their naivete about the sheer power of fantasy fiction, or again it might be a reluctance to want to be seen calling for sanctity and separation from the world - sounding too much like a joyless Puritan prigg . Possibly it is an overreliance on individual reason, as if to say, “I am so intelligent and my child is so intelligent, that we can take our pleasure in the irrational and the corrupt and remain impervious to it, and therefore it is not really corrupt at all”. The fact is that a powerful work of fantasy, replete with emotional stimuli, can be a major influence in implanting concepts and symbols deep in a child’s mind - one could say in the architecture of their mind.

By the way, if there is one thing that Marcia Montenegro has done exceedingly well it is to delineate in great detail the close connection between the “fantasy” magic of HP’s world and the real world of witchcraft and sorcery, with which she is well tutored in and well informed. Now it is this close connection that is just too close for comfort to many discerning Catholic parent’s. Of course not every single child who reads HP or watches the films will venture into the occult, but, alas, many will and that is why these books are wholly unacceptable and should be altogether avoided by the faithful and their children - what if it was your child that started dabbling in the occult as a consequence of interest first stimulated by reading HP books?
Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Oddly enough, MY kids did not start dabbling in the occult after reading HP. It never even occurred to them. In fact, one of my kids is now at Franciscan University, and the other one is considering the religious life. So much for their interest in witchcraft and wizardry.

After following this thread for the past few months–and never getting my question answered, namely, did you ever actually READ the books, carefully and with attention to its true, underlying themes–this latest post tells me that nothing anyone can say to you will change your cemented opinion of these books. That’s fine, you’re totally entitled to that opinion. But please don’t consider those of us who like the books ‘naive’ about the so-called power of fantasy fiction. We are anything but naive. Fantasy fiction is no more powerful than any other kind of fiction. It’s only as powerful as one wants to make it. Sadly, *you *seem to have made it far more powerful than anyone *I *know who’s actually read and loved the books.

 

[curlycool89]

Well it certainly seems that I commited a rather conspicuous indiscretion by citing* Onion News*, how am I going to live that down? However, I wonder if the article to which I appealed is a complete cock-and-bull story devoid of any truth whatsoever?

It’s Onion News. It’s a cock-and-bull story by definition.

 

[Portrait]

Oddly enough, MY kids did not start dabbling in the occult after reading HP. It never even occurred to them. In fact, one of my kids is now at Franciscan University, and the other one is considering the religious life. So much for their interest in witchcraft and wizardry.

After following this thread for the past few months–and never getting my question answered, namely, did you ever actually READ the books, carefully and with attention to its true, underlying themes–this latest post tells me that nothing anyone can say to you will change your cemented opinion of these books. That’s fine, you’re totally entitled to that opinion. But please don’t consider those of us who like the books ‘naive’ about the so-called power of fantasy fiction. We are anything but naive. Fantasy fiction is no more powerful than any other kind of fiction. It’s only as powerful as one wants to make it. Sadly, *you *seem to have made it far more powerful than anyone *I *know who’s actually read and loved the books.

Dear Loveday220,

I am truly happy and pleased to hear that your children have not been drawn into the world of witchcraft, but I did say that not every child will venture into the occult after reading the books or watching the films.

The point about naivety was said with reference to Catholic academics not you specifically, so there was no offence meant.

However, I must beg to differ with you when you say that “fantasy fiction is no more powerful than any other kind of fiction”. As the Barna survey indicated, the HP books can, albeit in a relatively small number of people, kindle an unhealthy and potentially dangerous interest in the occult. Is a Western, for example, or an episode of Columbo really likely to do that? We could argue about the level of violence and the appropriateness of watching someone being murdered, even in a fictional setting, but that is hardly in the same league as Satan worship or witchcraft which can, without controversy, have eternal consequences inasmuch as it can imperil an immortal soul.

Moreover, we are talking about, if the topic is HP, a target group of young and impressionable children whose minds are still in a state of formation. In their case the “power” may be just too overwhelming owing to their tender years and they may be drawn into something that could seriously harm them, perhaps eternally.

Once again I am sincerely sorry Loveday220 if I wounded your feelings.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

For the most part modern culture has replaced the splendour and wonder of existence with cheap thrills. The HP series is nothing more than a full-blown orgy of cheap thrills, dipped in a little pseudo-morality The morality is thin; the corrupt messages, both overt and subliminal, are overwhelming.

Excuse me, but are you trying to say just because something is highly detailed and graphic, it’s junk fiction? I’d have you know, there are going to be a ton a of, not just writers, but comic book artists who would like to pick a really big bone with you if that is your position. Creating the physical aspect of a fictional reality is an art in of itself. Look at Tolkien, look at the wonders behind the creation of his own universe. It’s what made him the father of the fantasy genre.

I am deeply unhappy by the promotion of the Potter series in certain Christian circles, even among some Catholic academics. Prehaps this is due in part at least to their naivete about the sheer power of fantasy fiction, or again it might be a reluctance to want to be seen calling for sanctity and separation from the world - sounding too much like a joyless Puritan prigg . Possibly it is an overreliance on individual reason, as if to say, “I am so intelligent and my child is so intelligent, that we can take our pleasure in the irrational and the corrupt and remain impervious to it, and therefore it is not really corrupt at all”. The fact is that a powerful work of fantasy, replete with emotional stimuli, can be a major influence in implanting concepts and symbols deep in a child’s mind - one could say in the architecture of their mind.

Any piece of fiction can be powerful stimuli if your brain is too cracked to take it. Unfortunately, there are fewer people who suffer from such mental instabilities than you give credit for (children and adults combined). With that said, I am getting tired of saying the same thing to the same thing you keep saying.

By the way, if there is one thing that Marcia Montenegro has done exceedingly well it is to delineate in great detail the close connection between the “fantasy” magic of HP’s world and the real world of witchcraft and sorcery, with which she is well tutored in and well informed. Now it is this close connection that is just too close for comfort to many discerning Catholic parent’s. Of course not every single child who reads HP or watches the films will venture into the occult, but, alas, many will and that is why these books are wholly unacceptable and should be altogether avoided by the faithful and their children - what if it was your child that started dabbling in the occult as a consequence of interest first stimulated by reading HP books?

Again, I feel forced to repeat myself. Just because an author draws ideas for her cosmology from pre-existing pagan myths does not mean it will draw them to the actual source. That’s like saying watching kung-fu flicks will make Buddhist or something. And furthermore, just what do you mean “many children will”? 12% is not many. As far a child actually being interested in actual occult from reading Harry Potter, I’d do the same thing if the child got interested in wanting to fly after watching Peter Pan: Give them a lecture on reality.

And frankly, it sounds like you need one as well.

 

[Loveday220]

Dear Loveday220,

I am truly happy and pleased to hear that your children have not been drawn into the world of witchcraft, but I did say that not every child will venture into the occult after reading the books or watching the films.

The point about naivety was said with reference to Catholic academics not you specifically, so there was no offence meant.

Well, you did say ‘in certain Christian circles.’ I’m a Catholic Christian, and in total agreement with those in the ‘certain Christian circles’ and some ‘Catholic academics’ to which you referred. So while I took no offence, I certainly felt you were including me and the others here arguing against your points in your comment.

However, I must beg to differ with you when you say that “fantasy fiction is no more powerful than any other kind of fiction”. As the Barna survey indicated, the HP books can, albeit in a relatively small number of people, kindle an unhealthy and potentially dangerous interest in the occult. Is a Western, for example, or an episode of Columbo really likely to do that? **We could argue about the level of violence and the appropriateness of watching someone being murdered, even in a fictional setting, but that is hardly in the same league as Satan worship or witchcraft **which can, without controversy, have eternal consequences inasmuch as it can imperil an immortal soul.

What?? Once again–for the third time now–I have to ask you, have you READ the books?? I know I’m talking to a very thick brick wall here, but I have to say it, there is NO SATAN WORSHIP in the books, and the witchcraft is NOT the sort of witchcraft you’re so worried about. Others have tried to explain the witchcraft bit to you, so I’m not even going to make an attempt, I know it’s useless. But honestly, you have GOT to stop believing there’s anything remotely resembling Satanism in these books.

Moreover, we are talking about, if the topic is HP, a target group of young and impressionable children whose minds are still in a state of formation. In their case the “power” may be just too overwhelming owing to their tender years and they may be drawn into something that could seriously harm them, perhaps eternally.

Once again I am sincerely sorry Loveday220 if I wounded your feelings.

Why on earth do you think you’ve ‘wounded my feelings?’

I think you don’t give young children enough credit. (By the way, the books are not aimed at VERY young children, they’re aimed at middle elementary aged kids, around 9 or 10, and on up from there, children who are absolutely old enough to understand the difference between reality and fantasy.) I get the distinct impression that you’re not around children very much. I am, and believe me, the overwhelmingly VAST majority of them are NOT impressionable enough to be influence by that “power” you’re so worried about. But I do worry about YOUR impressionable nature. You seem amazingly willing, eager even, to believe everything these anti-Potterites tell you, withoutquestion, without any effort to see the other side. Once again, I ask you…

Have you read the books for yourself? :

 

[Fone_Bone_2001]

Dear Fellow Posters,

Well it certainly seems that I commited a rather conspicuous indiscretion by citing* Onion News*, how am I going to live that down?

Don’t worry about it.

For the most part modern culture has replaced the splendour and wonder of existence with cheap thrills. The HP series is nothing more than a full-blown orgy of cheap thrills, dipped in a little pseudo-morality The morality is thin; the corrupt messages, both overt and subliminal, are overwhelming.

I couldn’t be more convinced from my own experience of the books and what I’ve read about them, and from the testimony of others I know who have read them, that your assertion is completely false. I couldn’t be more convinced that the opposite is true, and I so wish you would pick up a John Granger book and examine the facts about the Harry Potter novels.

I am deeply unhappy by the promotion of the Potter series in certain Christian circles, even among some Catholic academics. Prehaps this is due in part at least to their naivete about the sheer power of fantasy fiction… The fact is that a powerful work of fantasy, replete with emotional stimuli, can be a major influence in implanting concepts and symbols deep in a child’s mind - one could say in the architecture of their mind.

On the contrary, it is precisely because they are aware of its power that they promote it! As John Granger has shown (whose arguments you have so far declined even to acknowledge, let alone consider), the worldview of the Harry Potter series is - because of the books’ symbolism, themes, structure, characterization, and plot development - actually very Christian in its worldview. And thus, aware that fantasy has a great deal of power, these Christian academics promote these books in order to instill an affective awareness of and longing for the Good News about Jesus Christ into the hearts of Rowling’s readers.

If you find this far-fetched, please take a look at How Harry Cast His Spell by John Granger.

By the way, if there is one thing that Marcia Montenegro has done exceedingly well it is to delineate in great detail the close connection between the “fantasy” magic of HP’s world and the real world of witchcraft and sorcery, with which she is well tutored in and well informed.

Portrait, I read the article on her website, and I can and do assert with the utmost confidence that nothing could be farther from the truth. Her argument basically boils down to this: “Sorcery/witchcraft is evil and forbidden. Sorcery/witchcraft is practiced in the Harry Potter books and is portrayed as (at least potentially) good. Therefore the Harry Potter books promote sorcery/witchcraft.”

But the phrase “sorcery/witchcraft” in premise one has nothing in common with what “sorcery/witchcraft” in premise two refers to. Her whole argument is sheer equivocation.

Remember the whole “can-you-do-magic-by-waving-a-stick-around-and-shouting-fake-Latin” question? That’s why she’s equivocating. That’s not “real” magic, and in fact looks nothing like it! Please understand this, Portrait!

Oddly enough, MY kids did not start dabbling in the occult after reading HP. It never even occurred to them. In fact, one of my kids is now at Franciscan University.

Hey, that’s great! I’m a student at Franciscan University myself. I’m a senior and an English major (I’ll be graduating in May!)

I know I’m talking to a very thick brick wall here, but I have to say it, there is NO SATAN WORSHIP in the books, and the witchcraft is NOT the sort of witchcraft you’re so worried about. Others have tried to explain the witchcraft bit to you, so I’m not even going to make an attempt, I know it’s useless. But honestly, you have GOT to stop believing there’s anything remotely resembling Satanism in these books.

Exactly. Portrait, whatever made you speak of portrayals of “Satan worship” is exactly the reason we’re so vehement here - not because Harry Potter is the most amazing thing ever, but simply because it’s painful to watch an incredibly wholesome series be denounced for wildly and completely inaccurate reasons!

 

[Loveday220]

Don’t worry about it.
Hey, that’s great! I’m a student at Franciscan University myself. I’m a senior and an English major (I’ll be graduating in May!)

Well done, congratulations! My daughter’s got a ways to go yet, she’s a freshman. Stressing out about mid-terms at the moment, like everyone else probably is. LOL!

And Portrait, I second Fone Bone’s suggestion that you read Granger’s book. Preferably while you’re also reading the HP books themselves.

 

[Portrait]

Well, you did say ‘in certain Christian circles.’ I’m a Catholic Christian, and in total agreement with those in the ‘certain Christian circles’ and some ‘Catholic academics’ to which you referred. So while I took no offence, I certainly felt you were including me and the others here arguing against your points in your comment.

What?? Once again–for the third time now–I have to ask you, have you READ the books?? I know I’m talking to a very thick brick wall here, but I have to say it, there is NO SATAN WORSHIP in the books, and the witchcraft is NOT the sort of witchcraft you’re so worried about. Others have tried to explain the witchcraft bit to you, so I’m not even going to make an attempt, I know it’s useless. But honestly, you have GOT to stop believing there’s anything remotely resembling Satanism in these books.

Why on earth do you think you’ve ‘wounded my feelings?’

I think you don’t give young children enough credit. (By the way, the books are not aimed at VERY young children, they’re aimed at middle elementary aged kids, around 9 or 10, and on up from there, children who are absolutely old enough to understand the difference between reality and fantasy.) I get the distinct impression that you’re not around children very much. I am, and believe me, the overwhelmingly VAST majority of them are NOT impressionable enough to be influence by that “power” you’re so worried about. But I do worry about YOUR impressionable nature. You seem amazingly willing, eager even, to believe everything these anti-Potterites tell you, withoutquestion, without any effort to see the other side. Once again, I ask you…

Have you read the books for yourself? :

Dear Loveday220,

Greetings to you again.

Never have I contended that there is Satan worship within the covers of a HP novel; unfortunately you have misconstrued my meaning, although I thought that I had made myself reasonably clear. The point I was seeking to convey was that whatever the merits or demerits of a Western or a detective novel they would hardly draw anyone into the occult, the same could not be said of a HP novel and therein lies its potential danger.

Understandably I would concur with Fr. Gabreile Amorth, an exorcist of the diocese of Rome, when he admonished parent’s against the HP books in an interview with the Italian ANSA news agency. He said quite bluntly, “Behind Harry Potter hides the signature of the king of darkness, the Devil”. He further maintained that many of the ideas expressed in the books were from the realm of darkness, that they contain innumerable positive references to magic, “the satanic art”, and attempt to make the false distinction between black and white magic, when in point of fact such distinction does not exist, “…becuase magic is always recourse to the Devil”. Moreover, he strongly censured the disordered morality presented in Rowling’s works, which he decidedly believes reinforce moral relativism.

The usual Pro-Potterite response to this is to say that Father Amorth has no expertise in fantasy fiction and hence is not in a position to appraise the books. However, surely Father Amorth does not need to be tutored in the fantasy fiction genre to be able to access whether or not the books contain references to “the satanic art”, for that clearly is his forte. True, he is voicing his own personal opinion and not uttering infallible Church teaching yet, notwithstanding, the Vatican has never disowned or denounced his opinions on Potter so evidently they cannot consider them extreme or outrageous. Moreover, myriads of Catholics world-wide would prefer to bow to Father Amorth’s “expertise” in these matters than to mere laymen and there unconsidered prejudice. Thus he is one anti-Potterite that I and many other Catholics will listen to.

In any event it is not just the occult that is the issue with these books, but the worrisome fact that they sadly blur the lines between good and evil, The HP novels are essentially a relativistic product of our relativistic age; indeed such ignoble works of fiction could only be written in superficial and frivilous times such as our own, which are witnessing the ever increasing paganization of culture. My heart truly weeps for the present and emerging generation of children - they really do deserve so much better than balderdash like HP.

Finally, all good Christian parent’s worth their salt impose boundaries upon their children all the time and those boundaries will necessarily include their reading and viewing material. Not to do so would be a dereliction of parental responsibility for which we shall some day be held accountable. True, most children may well be capable of distinguishing fact from fiction, at least at a basic level, but we should not ignore the fact that they have very active imaginations. Moreover, neither should we ever underestimate the Devil’s influence, especially when it comes to books and films.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

Understandably I would concur with Fr. Gabreile Amorth, an exorcist of the diocese of Rome, when he admonished parent’s against the HP books in an interview with the Italian ANSA news agency. He said quite bluntly, “Behind Harry Potter hides the signature of the king of darkness, the Devil”. He further maintained that many of the ideas expressed in the books were from the realm of darkness, that they contain innumerable positive references to magic, “the satanic art”, and attempt to make the false distinction between black and white magic, when in point of fact such distinction does not exist, “…becuase magic is always recourse to the Devil”. Moreover, he strongly censured the disordered morality presented in Rowling’s works, which he decidedly believes reinforce moral relativism.

The usual Pro-Potterite response to this is to say that Father Amorth has no expertise in fantasy fiction and hence is not in a position to appraise the books. However, surely Father Amorth does not need to be tutored in the fantasy fiction genre to be able to access whether or not the books contain references to “the satanic art”, for that clearly is his forte.

Unfortunately, Fr. Amorth is one of those types who can’t distinguish real magic from fantasy magic. And yes, you do need knowledge of how something works before you condemn it. It’s called common sense? To say otherwise is like condemning a painting without knowing how to critique art (e.g. Savonarola). As far as the moral relativism is concerned, since you have yet to answer the question: Have you read the books?

I’ve said it, I’ll say it again, and I’ll keep saying it: You are not to judge Harry until you’ve imagined yourself in his shoes. That means you should stop with you repetitive posts and actually go out there and read about him.

True, he is voicing his own personal opinion and not uttering infallible Church teaching yet, notwithstanding, the Vatican has never disowned or denounced his opinions on Potter so evidently they cannot consider them extreme or outrageous. Moreover, myriads of Catholics world-wide would prefer to bow to Father Amorth’s “expertise” in these matters than to mere laymen and there unconsidered prejudice. Thus he is one anti-Potterite that I and many other Catholics will listen to.

Appealing to authority is a logical fallacy. You can quote Amorth many times but unless you show us how valid his logic is, we’ll dismiss him the same way we dismiss you.

 

[Loveday220]

Unfortunately, Fr. Amorth is one of those types who can’t distinguish real magic from fantasy magic. And yes, you do need knowledge of how something works before you condemn it. It’s called common sense? To say otherwise is like condemning a painting without knowing how to critique art (e.g. Savonarola). As far as the moral relativism is concerned, since you have yet to answer the question: Have you read the books?
I’ve said it, I’ll say it again, and I’ll keep saying it: You are not to judge Harry until you’ve imagined yourself in his shoes. That means you should stop with you repetitive posts and actually go out there and read about him.

Considering that he *hasn’t *answered that question yet (and the first time I asked it was back in September!), the odds of him reading *anything *positive about HP are slim to none, as far as I can see. Until he can intelligently discuss the books from the perspective of one who has at least read *some *of them, I have no more interest in discussing the subject with him. His repetitions are as tiresome as his arguments are unfounded, and they’ve gone on way too long.

 

[Brendan]

On the contrary, it is precisely because they are aware of its power that they promote it! As John Granger has shown (whose arguments you have so far declined even to acknowledge, let alone consider), the worldview of the Harry Potter series is - because of the books’ symbolism, themes, structure, characterization, and plot development - actually very Christian in its worldview. And thus, aware that fantasy has a great deal of power, these Christian academics promote these books in order to instill an affective awareness of and longing for the Good News about Jesus Christ into the hearts of Rowling’s readers.
!

I would disagree. Harry Potter is hardly Christian.

Take a look at his use of the Crucius curse. We were already told, in the book, that this was a very illegal curse, and rightly so.

But Harry uses it with impunity, and for no other justification that as revenge for the death of his godfather.

How is that Christian? I mean really, it was not to gain information to be able to better fight the Death Eaters. That would still be morally wrong, but at least there could be an intellectual defense of it. But he did it strictly for revenge, to get back at someone who hurt him!!

Now, in legitimate Christian literature, the protagonists have been know to morally fail. But, if it to be held as an example of Christian behavior, the protagonist should either repent and make ammends, or be punished.

Neither happend to Harry. By rights, he should have been shipped off to Azkaban.

If I wrote a fictional account of a person, say Harry Carpenter, who used torture as a means of revenge, would you really be promoting it as an example of Christian literature?

Especially when my fictional character learns that, for the torture to be REALLY painful, you have to “mean it”, and takes that advice to heart for the next time he attempts torture.

How does all that promote an awareness and longing for the Good News of Christ?

Does the Good News state that people may torture with impunity? Or that if they don’t the the torture right the first time, they should ‘mean it’ more on subsequent times?

 

[curlycool89]

In any event it is not just the occult that is the issue with these books, but the worrisome fact that they sadly blur the lines between good and evil

You probably don’t know this, but there’s a pretty obvious distinction between good and evil in the books.

Harry pretty much represents good. Not only that, Harry is presented as a regular flawed human being. It’s quite nice actually to have a main character who’s not a total egomaniac and who’s not completely full of himself and how important he is. He struggles with his life and laments the fact that all the events are happening and how he figures into it (what the heck, I’ll just spoil it: Voldermort believes that Harry is the “chosen one” who will bring him down according to a prophesy, but it’s really a self-fulfilling prophesy because it could have referred to another character but because Voldermort thinks it’s about Harry it becomes about Harry. They had a lot of fun with the circular logic). Like someone said above, yes he breaks rules but it’s either because the rules were unjust in the first place or he gets caught and gets major punishments (many, may times).

Evil is personified by Voldermort and his followers the Death Eaters. They are Nazis (no really, just in case you can’t tell who the bad guys are Rowling made them as much like the Nazis as possible just so it’s not ambiguous). They are evil. Everyone hate them. When they gain power the world goes to hell in a hand basket (again, just in case you couldn’t tell who the bad guys were Rowling drops it on your head like an anvil).

Long story short (like the abridged of the abridged version) Harry faces Voldermort and wins because he has the power of love vs. Voldermort’s hate. Harry is even ready to sacrifice himself if it will stop Voldermort.

No, the line between good and evil is pretty bright in HP. You’d have to be blind to miss it.

 

[Brendan]

You probably don’t know this, but there’s a pretty obvious distinction between good and evil in the books.

Harry pretty much represents good. Not only that, Harry is presented as a regular flawed human being. …
No, the line between good and evil is pretty bright in HP. You’d have to be blind to miss it.

So committing torture for personal revenge, with no repentance, is simply a flaw in an otherwise good character?

 

[dixieagle]

So committing torture for personal revenge, with no repentance, is simply a flaw in an otherwise good character?

A point of clarification…

When Harry attempted to use the Cruciatus curse against Bellatrix Lestrange, it was largely ineffective because - as Bellatrix pointed out - Harry lacked the real desire to inflict pain; he had to “really mean it”, and he didn’t, as he lacked the necessary cruelty.

Harry reacted out of pure, raw pain and righteous anger when Sirius was killed by the thoroughly evil Bellatrix, much like many otherwise good people might.

That said, I think that there is a lot of overthinking about fantasies like the Harry Potter books. It is a wonderful series that has provided countless hours of delighted reading to people of all ages, with Good defeating Evil in the end, but at great cost.

 

[Brendan]

A point of clarification…

When Harry attempted to use the Cruciatus curse against Bellatrix Lestrange, it was largely ineffective because - as Bellatrix pointed out - Harry lacked the real desire to inflict pain; he had to “really mean it”, and he didn’t, as he lacked the necessary cruelty.

You forget that he realized his ‘error’ and attempted to use it again against Snape (in Half Blood Prince). Is that the mark of a good person?

Harry reacted out of pure, raw pain and righteous anger when Sirius was killed by the thoroughly evil Bellatrix, much like many otherwise good people might.

I understand that, but good people, by definition, realize their error, repent, and attempt to make ammends. Where did Harry do that?

That said, I think that there is a lot of overthinking about fantasies like the Harry Potter books. It is a wonderful series that has provided countless hours of delighted reading to people of all ages, with Good defeating Evil in the end, but at great cost.

But we, as Catholics, recognize that we cannot use evil means to accomplish good. Doing so is evil.

I recognize that it is fun literature, I personally enjoyed the books; but it is not Christian, by any means and should not be held up as such.

 

[Portrait]

Considering that he *hasn’t *answered that question yet (and the first time I asked it was back in September!), the odds of him reading *anything *positive about HP are slim to none, as far as I can see. Until he can intelligently discuss the books from the perspective of one who has at least read *some *of them, I have no more interest in discussing the subject with him. His repetitions are as tiresome as his arguments are unfounded, and they’ve gone on way too long.

Dear Loveday220,

It was not my intention to purposely keep you, or any other fellow poster, in a state of suspense over the question of my reading of the HP books, I just do not deem it to be an issue of crucial importance as you seem to think it is.

However, the answer to the question is: No I have never polluted my mind by reading such unwholesome and unsavoury material.

The whole argument that one must read HP to have an informed opinion is, quite frankly, utterly riddiculous and risible and the people who assert that would never in a month of Sundays apply that to themselves in any number of other issues. They just say this to make cheap debater’s points in an effort to marginalize any dissent. It is a specious argument employed for polemical purposes against ones antagonists to silence them and is invariably put in an adversarial manner, which should tell us something.

Most people would accept that reading trusted reviews and in-depth analysis of any work is quite sufficient for the purposes of debate, after all one is engaging in a debate not writing a book review. In the course of my research on HP I have read various reviews, articles and analysis from various sources, both pro and con. What I have read convinces me that picking up a Potter book to read from cover to cover would be not only be time-consumming but also mind polluting. Similarly, I have never read The Davinci Code, yet I have read articles and reviews that show it to be arrant nonsense of the first rank so I give it a wide berth; why on earth do I need to waste my time reading such inferior fiction? Again does one need to read a salacious novel to know that it contains sinful material? Surely it would be spiritually unwise to read such a book in its entirety. Clearly there is nothing intrinsically unsystematic in not reading a book through to the end before venturing to critique or give an appraisal of its contents; it is quite permissible to lean on trusted and respected reviews of others in order to better understand a given work.

Now of course people are quite free to ignore my critique and censures of the HP novels and even treat them with the contempt that they imagine that they rightly deserve; however the one thing that they cannot do on a public forum is prevent me from expressing my viewpoint, however much they disagree with it. As long as I feel passionately and deeply concerned about the Potter books I shall, God willing, continue to submit unfavourable and negative evaluations.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait