Secular criticism of Harry Potter

[curlycool89]

First, it is not always so easy to make a clear-cut distinction between the fictional world and the real world, there is nearly always an interaction between the two (I discuss this above in Post 51), especially when it comes to principles of right and wrong and violations of God’s moral order. No author writes in some sort of neutral, impartial vacuum; if his imagination is unrestrained and unhallowed then that will of necessity colour his work for the worse.

Actually, I find it quite easy. What happens in the book is fiction, and what happens in the real world is real. Maybe someone visits the PM in Harry Potter, but it’s obviously part of the fictional world of HP and not part of the real world even though there is a real PM in Britain. When people are unable to tell the difference it is usually because they are blurring the lines themselves, not because they have been blurred.

Thus the HP novels have the potential to expose children to witchcraft and the occult. The most obvious problem is Rowling’s use of the symbol-world of the occult as her primary metaphor, and occultic activities as the dramatic engine of the plots. It presents these to the young and impressionable reader via attractive role models such as Harry and Hermoine, who are both students of witchcraft and sorcery. This has the capacity to lower the child’s guard - both subconscious and spiritual - to actual occult activity, in the real world, which is everywhere on the increase.

I’m sorry, but I’ve read this too many times and it is total and utter BS. I started reading Harry Potter in grade 5 (about 10ish), and never tried anything occult-like (most I ever did was dress up as Harry for a book launch party; the costume was quickly discarded in favour of the book).

If people are attempting magic after reading HP then it’s most likely that they were exposed to the “real world variety” somewhere before (despite the fact that the real world is distinctly different than the HP version).

Rationally, the young reader knows that the fantasy element in the novels is not ‘real’, but emotionally and subconsciously the child absorbs it as real.

I’ll offer that it’s a possibility, but 99.9999…% of children will grow out of it naturally once they, oh what’s it called, grow up.

The reason why many Catholics who defend these (like myself) seem uncharitable to you is that not only is this a worn out debate but also it is most unintellectual to keep saying that stuff like rock music or Harry Potter are gateways to the occult. Such a thing has always been debunked countless times with sheer common sense alone that it just reflects badly on Catholics in general to insist otherwise. We are expected to be more reasonable than other Christian sects. It saddens me to see people deliberately failing those expectations.

I have to agree. We are trying to spread Catholic moral values to the world, which is hard enough already. That’s why I try to argue and debate intelligently and rationally if at all possible. Some things I simply do not discuss with non-Catholics because I know that they won’t be able to comprehend it (not that they’re stupid or anything, it’s just that a lot of explanations would involve complex theology that wouldn’t make sense to them without the proper background. As a Catholic I don’t even pretend to understand it all).

Now fast forward to the third series, Yu-Gi-Oh! 5D’s.

But on that point I’m going to have to go with LittleKuriboh

 

[Portrait]

Actually, I find it quite easy. What happens in the book is fiction, and what happens in the real world is real. Maybe someone visits the PM in Harry Potter, but it’s obviously part of the fictional world of HP and not part of the real world even though there is a real PM in Britain. When people are unable to tell the difference it is usually because they are blurring the lines themselves, not because they have been blurred.

I’m sorry, but I’ve read this too many times and it is total and utter BS. I started reading Harry Potter in grade 5 (about 10ish), and never tried anything occult-like (most I ever did was dress up as Harry for a book launch party; the costume was quickly discarded in favour of the book).

If people are attempting magic after reading HP then it’s most likely that they were exposed to the “real world variety” somewhere before (despite the fact that the real world is distinctly different than the HP version).

I’ll offer that it’s a possibility, but 99.9999…% of children will grow out of it naturally once they, oh what’s it called, grow up.

I have to agree. We are trying to spread Catholic moral values to the world, which is hard enough already. That’s why I try to argue and debate intelligently and rationally if at all possible. Some things I simply do not discuss with non-Catholics because I know that they won’t be able to comprehend it (not that they’re stupid or anything, it’s just that a lot of explanations would involve complex theology that wouldn’t make sense to them without the proper background. As a Catholic I don’t even pretend to understand it all).

But on that point I’m going to have to go with LittleKuriboh

Dear curlycool89,

Thankyou for your response above.

Whilst a novel may well be intended to be read as pure fiction by the author, certain topics, morals or" values" and even factual material embedded within the tale may still, notwithstanding, interface with the real world. Surely it would be foolishly credulous to deny such a distinct possibility. As I have already remarked the world of fiction is not some sort of airtight compartment where interaction with the real world never occurs; writers do not pen their novels in a neutral vacuum.

Athough you are able to clearly distinguish fact from fantasy, are you not ignoring the fact that children read fiction with a different consciouness than adults? You are conveniently forgetting that children are in a state of formation and that their understanding of reality is being forged at every turn.

The numbers of children who step from Potter-world into the actual world of magic is relatively small, I emphasize the word relatively. However considering the massive marketing hype and the uprecedented popularity of the books and films, even the small minority of children who are hooked into the occult subcultures can add up to many precious souls and a great deal of damage. Would you not agree that a single lost child is a tragedy?

Moreover, when people defend the HP books by erroneously contending that the novels disconnect witchcraft from spiritual realitites, and therefore there is no danger from a child wanting to go from fantasy witchcraft to its real life counterpart, they are jumping to a big conclusion devoid of “empirical evidence”.

The books do at first glance appear to disconnect witchcraft from the spiritual; they present it as very exciting and in no way spiritually harmful. Alas, this renders the series potentially more corrupting, since it gives to the unsuspecting child a false sense of what witchcraft is really all about.

By the way Marcia Montenegro, a former occult practioner, has undertaken painstaking and well-documented research on this very aspect of the HP series. She has outlined in great detail the close relationship between the “fantasy” magic of Harry Potter’s world and the real world of witchcraft and sorcery. So Harry Potter’s world is not so very different from the real world after all. Evidently an author, either wittingly or unwittingly, does interface with the real world, and in this instance it is just too close for comfort, especially when one remembers that the primary readership is children and adolecents.

Finally, the rightness or the wrongness of the HP series cannot be determined by weighing the ratio of Pro-Potter and anti-Potter votes, as if to say that there are 10 pros and 9 contras, or vice-versa, then the jury has delivered a sound verdict. Juries are frequently wrong and, in any event, the issue must be discerned according to first principles.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

 

[shondrea]

Portrait, what would you say, theoretically, about a parent who chose to read the Potter novels aloud with their children, and discuss areas that might be problematic as they come up? Couldn’t doing such a thing help children see specific areas of how to judge right from wrong?

 

[curlycool89]

Athough you are able to clearly distinguish fact from fantasy, are you not ignoring the fact that children read fiction with a different consciouness than adults? You are conveniently forgetting that children are in a state of formation and that their understanding of reality is being forged at every turn.

My conscience was not fully formed at 10 when I started reading the books. Heck, I wasn’t even going to Church during all the years I read Harry Potter, and somehow despite going through a marathon reading session every time a book came out I turned out all right. Heck, being a fan of Harry Potter actually led me to read Lord of the Rings (best novel of the last century) due to the genre similarity.

The numbers of children who step from Potter-world into the actual world of magic is relatively small, I emphasize the word relatively. However considering the massive marketing hype and the uprecedented popularity of the books and films, even the small minority of children who are hooked into the occult subcultures can add up to many precious souls and a great deal of damage. Would you not agree that a single lost child is a tragedy?

I have yet to see any proof of any connection between HP and people entering the occult. Can you provide proof for us or do you only have anecdotal evidence?

Moreover, when people defend the HP books by erroneously contending that the novels disconnect witchcraft from spiritual realitites, and therefore there is no danger from a child wanting to go from fantasy witchcraft to its real life counterpart, they are jumping to a big conclusion devoid of “empirical evidence”.

Actually, the onus is on you to provide that evidence, not us. You are making the claim that HP leads to occult practices, so by the customs of debate it is up to you to provide a factual basis for this claim, otherwise I’m going to ask you to stop using it. It is a very simple request, and if you can’t back that up then we really have no reason at all to believe anything you say. Just because we’re Catholic doesn’t mean we have a different standard for the truth.

(and by evidence I want to see a secular report, and especially not something from fundamentalist Christians. If there’s a group that’ll use anything to market themselves it’s fundamentalists)

By the way Marcia Montenegro, a former occult practioner, has undertaken painstaking and well-documented research on this very aspect of the HP series. She has outlined in great detail the close relationship between the “fantasy” magic of Harry Potter’s world and the real world of witchcraft and sorcery. So Harry Potter’s world is not so very different from the real world after all. Evidently an author, either wittingly or unwittingly, does interface with the real world, and in this instance it is just too close for comfort, especially when one remembers that the primary readership is children and adolecents.

 

[Portrait]

Portrait, what would you say, theoretically, about a parent who chose to read the Potter novels aloud with their children, and discuss areas that might be problematic as they come up? Couldn’t doing such a thing help children see specific areas of how to judge right from wrong?

Dear shondrea,

That certainly has a great deal of merit in so far as the parent is able to supervise their child’s reading and utilise it as an opportunity to teach and admonish. However, I think that the HP novels are culturally unhealthy for many reasons and are therefore best avoided altogether. There is no shortage of wholesome fictional literature for children or adolescents, novels that clearly distinguish good from evil and inculcate moral virtues, even if they are not overtly religious. As Christian parents we have a moral responsibility to sheild are children and steer them away from all that would potentially harm them spiritually or cause them to possibly commit mortal sin. The words of our dear Lord come to mind as I write: “Whoever causes one of these little ones who believes in me to sin, it would be better for him if a great millstone were hung round his neck and he were thrown into the sea” (St. Mark 9: 42).

Look at any child watching a DVD or reading an engrossing book. Their faces are open, innocent, reflecting a deep and unfiltered vulnerability to the content of the author’s message. Thus we must be very careful as to what we expose their little receptive minds to, for we will be held accountable to God.

Alas, nowadays a constant onslaught of indoctination pours into the lives of those of tender years through films, DVDs, books, pop music and all other forms of social communication - peer pressure being a very influential one. How in these desperate times in which our lot is cast we need to ask the Holy Spirit for a sort of inner radar which will trigger an alarm bell when ever dangerous influences enter the family. Lastly we must pray for courage - courage to lovingly and firmly resist any such invasion, even if that does expose us to the charge of being narrow-minded bigots or overscrupulous cranks.

When devout Christians critique the HP novels they do not do so because they are joyless priggs; on the contrary they are simply raising some serious concerns with a set of chidren’s books that have as their central dynamic the world of sorcery and magic - activities which God calls an “abomination” in Sacred Scripture and which the Catholic Church condemns unequivocally.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

 

[Portrait]

My conscience was not fully formed at 10 when I started reading the books. Heck, I wasn’t even going to Church during all the years I read Harry Potter, and somehow despite going through a marathon reading session every time a book came out I turned out all right. Heck, being a fan of Harry Potter actually led me to read Lord of the Rings (best novel of the last century) due to the genre similarity.

I have yet to see any proof of any connection between HP and people entering the occult. Can you provide proof for us or do you only have anecdotal evidence?

Actually, the onus is on you to provide that evidence, not us. You are making the claim that HP leads to occult practices, so by the customs of debate it is up to you to provide a factual basis for this claim, otherwise I’m going to ask you to stop using it. It is a very simple request, and if you can’t back that up then we really have no reason at all to believe anything you say. Just because we’re Catholic doesn’t mean we have a different standard for the truth.

(and by evidence I want to see a secular report, and especially not something from fundamentalist Christians. If there’s a group that’ll use anything to market themselves it’s fundamentalists)

Dear curlycool89,

Am I to understand that you consider Marcia Montenegro’s extensive research utterly worthless and unsound, if so, why? However, I will undertake some further research myself into secular sources as you requested.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

 

[shondrea]

I can see your points clerly, Portrait, and your points are mostly valid. I think we have the same underlying beliefe, just different experiences with how it turns out.

One thing I want to ask you, and this might apply to older teen or adult novels, but when you say you would rather books and movies have a clear definition of good and evil…what of books where the theme IS that there is no true good or evil? Not ones that are glorifying evil, but where it’s the job of the reader to discern the motives and morals of both sides for themselves. Of course, I can’t see much childrens literature having this, which IS what we’re discussing, so…

 

[Nan_S]

Shondrea and Curlycool89,

It has long been said that the positions held by the Catholic Church are often not popular at any given moment, but in retrospect the wisdom of hindsight reveals those positions are actually much wiser than we wanted to believe.

As young people we want to sample the seemingly exciting, fantastical stuff: magic, sex, drinking, riding a motorcycle without a helmet, and risky behaviours of all other kinds. I did too when I was your age. When we are older, we often look back on those days and shake our heads at how stupid we were.

I am posting the passages from the Catechism of the Catholic Church regarding magic. The church condemns without exception the use of magic. I invite your comments.

2116 All forms of divination are to be rejected: recourse to Satan or demons, conjuring up the dead or other practices falsely supposed to “unveil” the future. Consulting horoscopes, astrology, palm reading, interpretation of omens and lots, the phenomena of clairvoyance, and recourse to mediums all conceal a desire for power over time, history, and, in the last analysis, other human beings, as well as a wish to conciliate hidden powers. They contradict the honor, respect, and loving fear that we owe to God alone.

2117 All practices of magic or sorcery, by which one attempts to tame occult powers, so as to place them at one’s service and have a supernatural power over others - even if this were for the sake of restoring their health - are gravely contrary to the virtue of religion. These practices are even more to be condemned when accompanied by the intention of harming someone, or when they have recourse to the intervention of demons. Wearing charms is also reprehensible. Spiritism often implies divination or magical practices; the Church for her part warns the faithful against it. Recourse to so-called traditional cures does not justify either the invocation of evil powers or the exploitation of another’s credulity.

 

[shondrea]

I understand, and I understand as well that there ARE going to be children who wander into true occultism from the books, I’m not trying to deny that. All that I’m saying is that I do not see the books in and of themselves as something evil or sinful, but may well provide an occasion of sin for children who haven’t yet developed a true sense of reality and fantasy.

I’m trying very honestly to get to this from your perpective. Is it the fantasy elements in and of themselves that you feel provide the problem? Or do you feel that a story can contain elements of fantasy in a less harmful way?

because see, when I think criticism of Harry Potter, I mentally tend to put all fantasy as a genre into it.

If Harry Potter had been a more morally set story, or if the magic and fantasy elements were handled differently, would your opinions on the book change? Do you think fantasy as a genre can be child-friendly?

I guess I’m just having a difficult time seeing this from your point of view because yes, I grew up reading HP and many other fantasy stories, but I never. ever had any temptation to attempt to dabble in divination and the occult. I never wanted to be dring or delinquent like Harry, never tried to read palsm or tea leaves from the book. But I can understand where you’re coming from that, just because I didn’t, doesn’t mean other children didn’t

I’m almost 20. I’ve never, ever had any desire to have sex, drink, ride a motorcycle, break curfew, get a tattoo, get high, any of that. I suppose by manner of this thread, you could say the most daring and rebellious thing I ever did was read a fantasy novel.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

Whilst a novel may well be intended to be read as pure fiction by the author, certain topics, morals or" values" and even factual material embedded within the tale may still, notwithstanding, interface with the real world. Surely it would be foolishly credulous to deny such a distinct possibility. As I have already remarked the world of fiction is not some sort of airtight compartment where interaction with the real world never occurs; writers do not pen their novels in a neutral vacuum.

Parallels don’t equal to your so-called interaction. Just because someone creates a U.S. President character to be a comical representation of George Bush in one fictional universe, doesn’t mean that the character himself is Bush. It’s the same way just because there’s some train station in London that’s exactly in Harry Potter doesn’t mean you’ll see people mysteriously disappearing between the barrier of platforms nine and ten.

Athough you are able to clearly distinguish fact from fantasy, are you not ignoring the fact that children read fiction with a different consciouness than adults? You are conveniently forgetting that children are in a state of formation and that their understanding of reality is being forged at every turn.

They are no vulnerable to reading Harry Potter than they would be if you had them read Superman.

The numbers of children who step from Potter-world into the actual world of magic is relatively small, I emphasize the word relatively. However considering the massive marketing hype and the uprecedented popularity of the books and films, even the small minority of children who are hooked into the occult subcultures can add up to many precious souls and a great deal of damage. Would you not agree that a single lost child is a tragedy?

The only tragedy is that those small numbers of children you fear for so much was the fact that they weren’t right in the head to begin with. It doesn’t matter if it were Harry Potter or Star Trek. There are nuts in all kinds of fandoms. With that said, if there are actual idiots out there who are using Harry Potter as an indoctrination tool for witchcraft then parents need to keep their kids away from such deviants.

Moreover, when people defend the HP books by erroneously contending that the novels disconnect witchcraft from spiritual realitites, and therefore there is no danger from a child wanting to go from fantasy witchcraft to its real life counterpart, they are jumping to a big conclusion devoid of “empirical evidence”.

Seriously, are you kidding me? The evidence is staring right at you in the face. Did you not yourself admit that if you take a stick, wave it around saying Incendio, nothing will happen? That’s evidence. That’s proof that only the completely brainless would think magic in Harry Potter is the same as real world witchcraft.

Furthermore, you even conceded that the amount of children who actually fail to distinguish even that simple reality are “relatively small”. Thus not only have you failed to present decent evidence for you claims, you’ve given us evidence for our own stances.

The books do at first glance appear to disconnect witchcraft from the spiritual; they present it as very exciting and in no way spiritually harmful. Alas, this renders the series potentially more corrupting, since it gives to the unsuspecting child a false sense of what witchcraft is really all about.

Really? Then why do you concede that only few children manage to cling onto this “false sense”? Oh, I remember now. Because of a great power that is more devastating and mind-blowing than any form of magic… and it’s not God. It’s the thing He created called: REALITY. Like curly here, I too was easily woken to the fact that everything “magical” I’ve seen in fiction (be it T.V., books, video games) is not real.

It’s all a fabrication, an illusion. Children grow up.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

By the way Marcia Montenegro, a former occult practioner, has undertaken painstaking and well-documented research on this very aspect of the HP series. She has outlined in great detail the close relationship between the “fantasy” magic of Harry Potter’s world and the real world of witchcraft and sorcery. So Harry Potter’s world is not so very different from the real world after all. Evidently an author, either wittingly or unwittingly, does interface with the real world, and in this instance it is just too close for comfort, especially when one remembers that the primary readership is children and adolecents.

I’m with curly when I raise my skeptic’s eyebrow. Find some more credible resources other than ones that come off as blatantly biased and scented with propaganda. You do know that astrology is not even an academic subject right? :ehh: In the eyes of a college professor, Marcia Montenegro’s credentials would only classify her as an expert of pagan myths.

While it is true that Rowling derived many of her cosmological concepts from these same myths, the same can be said of Tolkien with Norse and Scandinavian folklore, Lewis and Dante with Greek literature etc.

Why aren’t you decrying the latter three of promoting the things they drew inspiration from?

Finally, the rightness or the wrongness of the HP series cannot be determined by weighing the ratio of Pro-Potter and anti-Potter votes, as if to say that there are 10 pros and 9 contras, or vice-versa, then the jury has delivered a sound verdict. Juries are frequently wrong and, in any event, the issue must be discerned according to first principles.

Portrait, as long as refuse to imagine yourself in Harry’s shoes and wonder what you would do in his situations, I can’t say you are in any position to criticize the morality of his actions.

 

[Melissa]

Am I to understand that you consider Marcia Montenegro’s extensive research utterly worthless and unsound, if so, why?

In a word, yes.

It seems odd to me that a thread begins purporting to discuss secular criticism of Harry Potter, we ended up with the same old tired, religious critique, the accuracy of which is absurd. Secular criticism would presumably address issues like the quality of the writing, which did show up earlier in the thread. Admittedly, these standards seem rather unfair as no one is similarly criticizing the plethora of other children’s literature which does not rise to the lofty standards of Faulkner or other “important literature” nor the divergence from reality (as in the Little House series).

Instead, the thread takes a sharp right turn to the same arguments which have been hashed, rehashed, and proven false multiple times on this forum alone. Ms. Montenegro’s research is, from what I have been able to locate, rife with logical fallacies (particularly, straw man, but that’s not the only one).

 

[curlycool89]

Shondrea and Curlycool89,

It has long been said that the positions held by the Catholic Church are often not popular at any given moment, but in retrospect the wisdom of hindsight reveals those positions are actually much wiser than we wanted to believe.

As young people we want to sample the seemingly exciting, fantastical stuff: magic, sex, drinking, riding a motorcycle without a helmet, and risky behaviours of all other kinds. I did too when I was your age. When we are older, we often look back on those days and shake our heads at how stupid we were.

I am posting the passages from the Catechism of the Catholic Church regarding magic. The church condemns without exception the use of magic. I invite your comments.

2116 All forms of divination are to be rejected: recourse to Satan or demons, conjuring up the dead or other practices falsely supposed to “unveil” the future. Consulting horoscopes, astrology, palm reading, interpretation of omens and lots, the phenomena of clairvoyance, and recourse to mediums all conceal a desire for power over time, history, and, in the last analysis, other human beings, as well as a wish to conciliate hidden powers. They contradict the honor, respect, and loving fear that we owe to God alone.

2117 All practices of magic or sorcery, by which one attempts to tame occult powers, so as to place them at one’s service and have a supernatural power over others - even if this were for the sake of restoring their health - are gravely contrary to the virtue of religion. These practices are even more to be condemned when accompanied by the intention of harming someone, or when they have recourse to the intervention of demons. Wearing charms is also reprehensible. Spiritism often implies divination or magical practices; the Church for her part warns the faithful against it. Recourse to so-called traditional cures does not justify either the invocation of evil powers or the exploitation of another’s credulity.

At no time have I said that the Church is wrong on anything. Obviously magic and the occult are wrong and should be condemned.

But we’re not talking about the real world here, we’re talking about a book, a piece of fiction. I’m able to separate the fiction from reality.

Really? Then why do you concede that only few children manage to cling onto this “false sense”? Oh, I remember now. Because of a great power that is more devastating and mind-blowing than any form of magic… and it’s not God. It’s the thing He created called: REALITY. Like curly here, I too was easily woken to the fact that everything “magical” I’ve seen in fiction (be it T.V., books, video games) is not real.

It’s all a fabrication, an illusion. Children grow up.

Exactly. I’m beginning to think that some people would like to just forbid fiction all together because fiction will always have a character who’s evil and probably commits immoral actions. Sometimes the hero isn’t such a moral beacon either, which is probably due to the fact that not many people are in real life. There’s always a conflict because conflict is interesting. Utopia is boring, and for all intensive purposes is and will always be impossible until Christ comes again. People don’t get along. That’s pretty much what all stores stem from.

 

[Portrait]

In a word, yes.

It seems odd to me that a thread begins purporting to discuss secular criticism of Harry Potter, we ended up with the same old tired, religious critique, the accuracy of which is absurd. Secular criticism would presumably address issues like the quality of the writing, which did show up earlier in the thread. Admittedly, these standards seem rather unfair as no one is similarly criticizing the plethora of other children’s literature which does not rise to the lofty standards of Faulkner or other “important literature” nor the divergence from reality (as in the Little House series).

Instead, the thread takes a sharp right turn to the same arguments which have been hashed, rehashed, and proven false multiple times on this forum alone. Ms. Montenegro’s research is, from what I have been able to locate, rife with logical fallacies (particularly, straw man, but that’s not the only one).

Dear Melissa,

Forgive me, but when you speak of “… the same arguments which have been hashed, rehashed, and proven false multiple times on this forum alone”, you appear to be making and unfounded assertion which really begs the question. That is merely supposition resulting from a one-sided subjective opinion. Indeed many posters who have engaged in the HP debate would most emphatically deny your claim that the arguments against the HP novels/films have been debunked “multiple times”. On the contrary they would contend that they have been vindicated and demonstrated to be valid on numerous occasions both on CAF and elsewhere.

Regarding Marcia Montenegro’s extensive research, can you please discuss these “logical fallacies” with which you allege she is guilty of. How are the arguments she employs against HP fallacious or untenable and therefore undeserving of our attention?

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

Forgive me, but when you speak of “… the same arguments which have been hashed, rehashed, and proven false multiple times on this forum alone”, you appear to be making and unfounded assertion which really begs the question. That is merely supposition resulting from a one-sided subjective opinion. Indeed many posters who have engaged in the HP debate would most emphatically deny your claim that the arguments against the HP novels/films have been debunked “multiple times”. On the contrary they would contend that they have been vindicated and demonstrated to be valid on numerous occasions both on CAF and elsewhere.

Show me where such a ludicrous position is considered logically “valid” on these threads and I’ll give you a response of an actual Apologist considering your views ridiculous.

 

[Portrait]

Dear curlycool89,

Greetings to you again.

Having undertaken some research today I submit the following for your perusal:

An article in the 17th. December 2000 issue of* Time* magazine reported that a pagan organisation in Germany deals with an increasing number of young people which it credits to the Potter factor.

In an interview with Newsweek, a spokesman for the Pagan Federation of England claimed that he receives on average 100 inquiries a month from young people who are desirous of becoming witches - an unprecedented number which he also attributes in part to the HP novels.

R.K. Rowling herself has expressed surprise at the volume of mail she receives from young readers writing to her as if Hogwarts was real and wanting to know how they can enrol at the school in order to become witches and wizards.

Librarians in diverse social settings report that children in increasing numbers are requesting material from the occult sections of their stock, including witchcraft and satanic manuals.

In a survey conducted in the US in the summer of 2001, the Barna Research Group found that 41% of the adolescents polled had either seen the Potter film or read one or more of the books. As a result of watching the film or reading the books, 12% said they were more interested in actual witchcraft. Some 86% regularly watch films or TV programmes with occult themes. In order to determine how many of the survey-group were involved in psychic-occult experimentation, researches listed a variety of activities and asked which ones they had participatedn in. The list included consulting a psychic or medium, fortune telling, palm reading, playing with a Ouija board, playing a game that featured witchcraft and sorcery elements, participating in a seance, attempting to cast a spell and trying to mix a potion. The survey disturbingly revealed that 25% had experimented with three items on the list, 5% had engaged in all the items on the list, and approximately 66% had participated in at least one of these activities. Of the teenagers who had either seen the Harry Potter film or read the books, a staggering 74% told researchers that they had tried at least one item on the list. To sugest that the latter 74%were all unhinged in the first place is really special pleading that would not even be seriously broached unless one had a particular theory to uphold at all costs.

Statistically speaking it is exceedingly difficult to prove precisely the number of young persons who have entered occultic subcultures as a direct result of reading the HP novels or watching the films However, given the myriads of young HP readers world-wide it must be conceded that a good many have; by the law of probabilities it is difficult to see how that conclusion can be avoided. Thus the case is virtually proved for all intents and purposes and any denial would appear to futile. So once again I must ask, would you not agree that even a single lost child to the occult, as a consequence of reading or watching HP, is a tragedy that we cannot afford to ignore as professing Christians?

Just to put the matter beyond any doubt, I am not, and indeed never have argued, that the HP books/films will inevitably lead their readers into satanic cults or witchcraft covens. However, I would concur with Father Gabriele Amorth, exorcist of the diocese of Rome, when he said quite bluntly, “Behind Harry Potter hides the signature of the king of darkness, the Devil”. As such these books have the potential at least to draw susceptible children into the occult and we cannot remain unconcerned with that disturbing fact.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

 

[Portrait]

I can see your points clerly, Portrait, and your points are mostly valid. I think we have the same underlying beliefe, just different experiences with how it turns out.

One thing I want to ask you, and this might apply to older teen or adult novels, but when you say you would rather books and movies have a clear definition of good and evil…what of books where the theme IS that there is no true good or evil? Not ones that are glorifying evil, but where it’s the job of the reader to discern the motives and morals of both sides for themselves. Of course, I can’t see much childrens literature having this, which IS what we’re discussing, so…

Dear shondrea,

Thankyou most kindly for your thoughtful posting. Sorry for the delay in replying, but as you can well imagine I have had my work cut out for me today - I strongly suspect that I shall be dreaming of HP for the next few nights!

A book devoid of any theme of good or evil and right or wrong is surely outside the scope of morality entirely and that cannot, from a Christian standpoint, be wholesome or sound. Indeed I would go further and say that it is intrinsically anti-Christian.

I am not saying for one moment that all books must be a morality tale, but neither should they obscure the Divine moral order of things by subtle nuances or ambiguity; light and darkness should always be clearly distinguished and not left for the reader to deduce or work out for himself. There is after all a very real risk that he will draw erroneous inferences which might cause him to stray from the path of virtue and truth. Thus such a book could prove a stumbling block and possibly be the occasion of sin, especially in any person whose mind is not informed by Christian doctrine or the teaching of the Church. It is just too precarious to leave them to their own devices and just hope that they will make the correct choices.

Trust that is of some help to you.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

 

[Nan_S]

At no time have I said that the Church is wrong on anything. Obviously magic and the occult are wrong and should be condemned.

But we’re not talking about the real world here, we’re talking about a book, a piece of fiction. I’m able to separate the fiction from reality.

The statistics posted by Portrait are very disturbing. While it is true that many kids who read the Harry Potter books turn out just fine, there will be some who will be lost because of the books. Do you remember what Jesus said was the value of one lost sheep? If even one out of a hundred lambs strayed, the Good Shepherd values the one lamb so much that He will leave the other 99 in the care of another and search for the lost one until He finds it.

Which side should we be on? The side seeking for the lost lambs, or the side encouraging them to test the fence for weak spots?

From a parent’s perspective, I was surprised to realize just how short-sighted and rigid is the thinking of children. It’s shocking to watch how quickly young people jump to conclusions based on extremely limited information, and how sure of themselves they are when they do so. No shades of grey. No nuances. And no hesitation if something sounds cool or seems harmless.

For a child living under the limitations imposed by parents and teachers, imagining you have a way to escape is tempting to the point of obsession. Harry Potter magically blew up his rude, ignorant, bullying aunt. He didn’t intend to, he didn’t mean to, but he lost his temper and there she was. Tell me you didn’t feel pleased to see Harry’s bullying aunt receive her come-uppance, and tell me you haven’t wished the bullies in your own life could somehow get theirs as well. Would be nice if it was that easy, wouldn’t it?

When I was a child I thought I was insightful and introspective, capable of dealing maturely with all kinds of issues. Now that I’m an adult, I sometimes wonder how I managed to survive those years. One of the reasons I did was the influence my parents had on me. Yes, I read Dracula under the covers by flashlight and dabbled in other stuff which I now realize was really stupid. But I always had that nagging little voice in the back of my mind saying “Mom wouldn’t approve” and that usually kept me from straying so far off the straight and narrow path that I couldn’t find my way back before I got in serious trouble.

Not all kids who try marijuana turn into drug addicts. But some, who otherwise would not, do. And it ruins their lives.

Not all kids who experiment with sex get pregnant or catch STDs. But some, who otherwise would not, do. And it ruins their lives.

Not all kids who try cigarettes get addicted, not all kids who sample liquor turn into alcoholics, not all kids who race cars down the highway get into deadly wrecks, and not all kids who think fantasy magic is harmless fun turn to the occult. But some, who otherwise would not, do. And it ruins their lives.

The Catholic Church does not condemn sex, tobacco, automobiles, or alcohol, but instructs us to act with temperance and moderation, putting each into its proper context. The Catholic Church DOES condemn, without exception, any use of illicit drugs and any dabbling with magic for any reason.

Who are we fooling except ourselves, if we think we know better and can draw our own lines, justifying it by saying, “It’s just fiction”???

 

[shondrea]

@ Portrait-

I’m not sure if we’re talking about the same kind of story. I’m meaning one that DOES have a grounding in morality, and it may be clear to the audience what the objective is, but the story is more about the people involved in the moral battle.

Think perhaps, a movie on just war. Most movies would focus soley on the “good” side, those who are being killed, oppressed, fighting for their freedom. But think of a movie that shows the hardships of BOTH sides, shows how it effects civilians of both parties, and shows that both sides are suffering.

Not a story that glorifies the evil being done, of course, or tries to pass it off as something noble. More like, it simply shows these events happened, without advocating either side.

 

[John21652]

Dear curlycool89,

Greetings to you again.

Having undertaken some research today I submit the following for your perusal:

An article in the 17th. December 2000 issue of* Time* magazine reported that a pagan organisation in Germany deals with an increasing number of young people which it credits to the Potter factor.

In an interview with Newsweek, a spokesman for the Pagan Federation of England claimed that he receives on average 100 inquiries a month from young people who are desirous of becoming witches - an unprecedented number which he also attributes in part to the HP novels.

R.K. Rowling herself has expressed surprise at the volume of mail she receives from young readers writing to her as if Hogwarts was real and wanting to know how they can enrol at the school in order to become witches and wizards.

Librarians in diverse social settings report that children in increasing numbers are requesting material from the occult sections of their stock, including witchcraft and satanic manuals.

In a survey conducted in the US in the summer of 2001, the Barna Research Group found that 41% of the adolescents polled had either seen the Potter film or read one or more of the books. As a result of watching the film or reading the books, 12% said they were more interested in actual witchcraft. Some 86% regularly watch films or TV programmes with occult themes. In order to determine how many of the survey-group were involved in psychic-occult experimentation, researches listed a variety of activities and asked which ones they had participatedn in. The list included consulting a psychic or medium, fortune telling, palm reading, playing with a Ouija board, playing a game that featured witchcraft and sorcery elements, participating in a seance, attempting to cast a spell and trying to mix a potion. The survey disturbingly revealed that 25% had experimented with three items on the list, 5% had engaged in all the items on the list, and approximately 66% had participated in at least one of these activities. Of the teenagers who had either seen the Harry Potter film or read the books, a staggering 74% told researchers that they had tried at least one item on the list. To sugest that the latter 74%were all unhinged in the first place is really special pleading that would not even be seriously broached unless one had a particular theory to uphold at all costs.

Statistically speaking it is exceedingly difficult to prove precisely the number of young persons who have entered occultic subcultures as a direct result of reading the HP novels or watching the films However, given the myriads of young HP readers world-wide it must be conceded that a good many have; by the law of probabilities it is difficult to see how that conclusion can be avoided. Thus the case is virtually proved for all intents and purposes and any denial would appear to futile. So once again I must ask, would you not agree that even a single lost child to the occult, as a consequence of reading or watching HP, is a tragedy that we cannot afford to ignore as professing Christians?

Just to put the matter beyond any doubt, I am not, and indeed never have argued, that the HP books/films will inevitably lead their readers into satanic cults or witchcraft covens. However, I would concur with Father Gabriele Amorth, exorcist of the diocese of Rome, when he said quite bluntly, “Behind Harry Potter hides the signature of the king of darkness, the Devil”. As such these books have the potential at least to draw susceptible children into the occult and we cannot remain unconcerned with that disturbing fact.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

I wonder how many young people killed themselves after climbing onto the rooves of houses and trying to fly after seeing the Superman TV series and movies.

I wonder how many started kitchen fires after emulating some chef on TV. Or how many killed themselves after Bullitt hit the big screen.

I wonder how many couldn’t sleep after hearing the tale of The Ginger Bread Man. I wonder how many turned to a life of crime after reading the Tale of Peter Rabbit.

I wonder how many hurt themselves badly after trying to emulate the Lone Ranger, or got bitten by dogs after they watched Rin Tin Tin, or how many…sheesh.

As for that ‘single child’ supposedly lost to the occult, well, he probably read The Lion The Witch and the Wardrobe first, or saw The Wizard of Oz.

Ban fairytales. Come on, let’s just get it over and done with.