Secular Third Orders

[thomas_jd]

Yes “most” secular third orders have a promise of some sort not a vow

Carmelite tertiaries (discalced and calced) though are not the only tertiaries to have the possibility of private vows (and not only those called to celibacy)

I am a lay Carmelite, after Profession we may if approved, take Vows of Obedience and Celibacy (according to our station in life.)
Our Vows are private made to God first in our promises of Profession and later if one takes a vow that is also made first to God.
You mentioned other tertiaries that also take vows. I was not aware of any outside of the Carmelites.
Our vows are made thru the community as opposed to vows made according to Canon Law.

 

[iloveangels]

I believe your recollection here is not quite accurate.

They are governed by the* same canon* as all Secular Third Orders.

The are a public association in the Church that fall in particular under the same canon as does say the Carmelite third orders.

And it is interesting to note too as an aside --that all secular third orders fall under the Congregation for Institutes of Consecrated Life and Societies of Apostolic Life. Not under that of the laity (though most members are in fact laity).

Bookcat, they’re only there because they don’t fit anywhere else, but the rule and constitutions of the OFS are unique among the third orders. The Secular Franciscans are the “platypus” of the religious order world.

And yes, the OFS is autonomous. The OFS has its own rule, constitutions and statutes and they are not dependent on any of the other Franciscan bodies for their governing authority. The OFS answers directly to the Holy See. The rule was revised in 1978 by Pope Paul VI. The other branches of the Franciscan order aren’t allowed to change or modify it.

Thomas JD, OFS make promises at profession. We are not allowed to make canonical solemn vows at profession because many of us already have them: marriage vows! And also because solemn vows are binding under pain of sin, which can be harsh for laypeople with all the difficulties of lay life lived well. OFS make their promises during a mass.

OFS can make, as you say, private vows, under certain conditions and sometimes they’re made at the same time as profession promises, but not usually since living the Christian life well can be arduous even without them and this is our aim with the promises. If private vows are made, they must be prepared with care and a lot of preparation, and with the permission of spiritual directors and priests and family, etc.

 

[Bookcat]

I am a lay Carmelite, after Profession we may if approved, take Vows of Obedience and Celibacy (according to our station in life.)
Our Vows are private made to God first in our promises of Profession and later if one takes a vow that is also made first to God.
You mentioned other tertiaries that also take vows. I was not aware of any outside of the Carmelites.
Our vows are made thru the community as opposed to vows made according to Canon Law.

If I may …I would note a little typo-- that they are “obedience” and “chastity” according to state in life

Also I think you meant there to say that you have first promises …and then if one wishes later --private vows.

Also the private vows are made according to canon law (all vows are --both private and public)

 

[Bookcat]

Bookcat, they’re only there because they don’t fit anywhere else

They are there --well cause that is where they belong as one of the Secular Orders in the Church.

 

[Bookcat]

Thomas JD, OFS make promises at profession. We are not allowed to make canonical solemn vows at profession because many of us already have them: marriage vows! And also because solemn vows are binding under pain of sin, which can be harsh for laypeople with all the difficulties of lay life lived well.
.

Marriage “vows” are not per se “canonical solemn vows”. They are part of a Sacrament.

As for vows binding --ALL “private vows” bind under pain of sin --even that of say Carmelite Tertiaries–they bind via the virtue of religion (but do not make one a religious of course…all “private vows” bind such) (and they merit via that virtue! etc and offer latria to God…)

The “promises” do not bind further under pain of sin (such as that which SFO make-or now is is it OFS?)

 

[JReducation]

I believe your recollection here is not quite accurate.

They are governed by the* same canon* as all Secular Third Orders.

The are a public association in the Church that fall in particular under the same canon as does say the Carmelite third orders.

And it is interesting to note too as an aside --that all secular third orders fall under the Congregation for Institutes of Consecrated Life and Societies of Apostolic Life. Not under that of the laity (though most members are in fact laity).

Pope John Paul II stated to the General Chapter of the OFS that they do not fit into either category of Canon Law. There are some canons in the section that addresses consecrated life that applies to them and there are are some in the section for secular institutes that apply to them. But neither set of canons accurately applies to them. They are singular among the secular orders, beginning with the fact that the friars have no voice in them.

They have just released the minutes of their last general chapter in 2011 where they repeat again that they are not like other secular orders. They are not subject to the friars and the friars have no voice in their affairs. The constitutions of the friars require that they serve as spiritual directors; but the constitutions of the OFS do not require that they seek out the friars for anything. The burden falls on the friars, IF the OFS asks for help. This is the first thing that makes them very unique. The role of the friars is pastoral, not juridical. is a friar assigned to each province as the spiritual assistant, but he does not have a vote. This is also unique to them. In the other secular orders, the friars have a vote and the superior of the friars is the superior of the secular order.

By the way, the friars don’t want to be responsible for the OFS. We are more than happy to let them govern themselves and have their independence. They’re too big for anyone friar to govern them. I actually admire their superior general. Who in their right mind would accept an election to govern over 500,000 people?

The OFS has its own canonical superior general and a generalate. Their superior general sits on the Council of Franciscan Superiors General as an equal to the friars, not a subordinate. This is very interesting, because the congregations of sisters may not sit on that council as they are not religious orders, they are congregations. The council is only for Franciscan Orders of equal canonical rank.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Bookcat]

Pope John Paul II stated to the General Chapter of the OFS that they do not fit into either category of Canon Law. There are some canons in the section that addresses consecrated life that applies to them and there are are some in the section for secular institutes that apply to them. But neither set of canons accurately applies to them. They are singular among the secular orders, beginning with the fact that the friars have no voice in them.

They have just released the minutes of their last general chapter in 2011 where they repeat again that they are not like other secular orders. They are not subject to the friars and the friars have no voice in their affairs. The constitutions of the friars require that they serve as spiritual directors; but the constitutions of the OFS do not require that they seek out the friars for anything. The burden falls on the friars, IF the OFS asks for help. This is the first thing that makes them very unique. The role of the friars is pastoral, not juridical. is a friar assigned to each province as the spiritual assistant, but he does not have a vote. This is also unique to them. In the other secular orders, the friars have a vote and the superior of the friars is the superior of the secular order.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Brother

I do not know all the internals of the SFO (that is for certain)…but they do fall under the same Canon as do all the other Secular Orders. That was my point there in the post. The fact that Bl. Pope John Paul II noted to the General Chapter something of that nature that you indicated (please provide a full documentation if possible —for my interest–I have no reason to doubt you) does not change where he would recognize them as falling canonically. For they by their very constitutions (Approved by the Holy See) refer twice to CIC 303. Hence my statement. That they do fall under the same Canon 303 as to the others. That is all I was getting at.

SFO General Constitutions (from SFO site nafra-sfo.org/)

Art. 1
4. The Holy See has entrusted the pastoral care and spiritual assistance of the Secular Franciscan Order (SFO), because it belongs to the same spiritual family, to the Franciscan First Order and Third Order Regular (TOR). These are the “Institutes” who are responsible for the altius moderamen, referred to by Canon 303 of the Code of Canon Law.

Art 85

1. The spiritual and pastoral care of the SFO, entrusted by the Church to the Franciscan First Order and the TOR, is the duty, above all, of their general and provincial ministers. The altius moderamen, of which Canon 303 speaks, belongs to them. The purpose of the altius moderamen is to guarantee the fidelity of the SFO to the Franciscan charism, communion with the Church and union with the Franciscan family, values which represent a vital commitment for the Secular Franciscans.

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CIC 303:

Can. 303 Associations whose members share in the spirit of some religious institute while in secular life, lead an apostolic life, and strive for Christian perfection under the higher direction of the same institute are called third orders or some other appropriate name.

Can. 303 — Consociationes, quarum sodales, in saeculo spiritum alicuius instituti religiosi participantes, sub altiore eiusdem instituti moderamine, vitam apostolicam ducunt et ad perfectionem christianam contendunt, tertii ordines dicuntur aliove congruenti nomine vocantur.

From: vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P11.HTM

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PS: yes the higher superiors of the other various Orders the Higher Superiors are Superiors of the Secular Orders (excepting as you suggest the SFO) --but that does not mean that the Priest who is the Spiritual Assistant has a “vote” in the local councils…such is currently not necessarily (or even often?) the case if at all

I hope you have had a very Blessed Lords Day!

BC

 

[iloveangels]

Marriage “vows” are not per se “canonical solemn vows”. They are part of a Sacrament.

As for vows binding --ALL “private vows” bind under pain of sin --even that of say Carmelite Tertiaries–they bind via the virtue of religion (but do not make one a religious of course…all “private vows” bind such) (and they merit via that virtue! etc and offer latria to God…)

The “promises” do not bind further under pain of sin (such as that which SFO make-or now is is it OFS?)

Bookcat, are you an OFS?

 

[Bookcat]

Bookcat, are you an OFS?

no I am not an SFO.

 

[Bookcat]

Bookcat, are you an OFS?

No I am not an SFO (though it was my one of my first interests (of this topic) way back before I was received into the Church).

My studies have taken me into in secular third orders per se and of course the general nature of such things a private vows etc.

 

[iloveangels]

No I am not an SFO (though it was my one of my first interests (of this topic) way back before I was received into the Church).

My studies have taken me into in secular third orders per se and of course the general nature of such things a private vows etc.

I am. And Br JR is the spiritual assistant of a whole fraternity of them, and he’s an expert on these matters.

Don’t be telling Franciscans what they’re about if you’re not one.

 

[iloveangels]

The Carmelites, Dominicans, Servites and other third orders have an appointed friar at their head. In each of these third orders this head of the third order reports to the Master of the larger order.

That is not true for the Franciscan family, which is structured entirely differently. The Franciscan family is a group of distinct and discrete orders that work side by side like brothers and sisters within the Family structure. The family structure reports in parallel to the Holy See. There is no one Minister General over the whole Franciscan Family.

There are three orders in this family:

1. Friars which may or may not be ordained: OFMs, Conventuals & Capuchins. Each of these sub-orders has its own Minister General who reports to the Holy See.
2. Poor Clares who are nuns, and have a Minister General who reports to the Holy See.
3. TORs and OFS who both come from the third branch of the order. TORs have organized into houses; OFS have not. Both, however, have a Minister General who reports to the Holy See. They do not report to each other. They are both autonomous, although they do help one another fraternally. Each of these also have a completely separate rule, the OFS one approved in 1978, and the TOR one approved in 1982.

In addition, there are affliliated congregations and other groups who belong to the Franciscan family by fraternal affiliation, but who are not officially members of one of the three original orders. All the Franciscan sisters who teach etc belong either to the TOR structure or to one of these groups. Nuns don’t teach. Nuns aren’t sisters.

Franciscans that belong to the big three original orders don’t have associates, lay co-operators or “half-members.” It’s not part of our structure and I’m not sure what purpose it could ever serve for us. But again, you have to understand the Franciscan Family system to realize that.

If you think you’re an expert on this, think again. It’s very intricate and you can’t get to it by proof-texting a little bit like a protestant.

It’s not a good idea to go around calling out friars like Br JR, and saying you know more than they do about what they’ve dedicated their lives to, Bookcat. It’s very presumptuous and more than a little silly-looking on your part.

 

[Bookcat]

I am. And Br JR is the spiritual assistant of a whole fraternity of them, and he’s an expert on these matters.

Don’t be telling Franciscans what they’re about if you’re not one.

Please read what I wrote again in the last few posts.

PAX

 

[iloveangels]

Bookcat, are you personally a member of any of the 3rd orders?

You say you’re interested in them. Very well then. There are actual members of every one of the third orders in CAF. Many of these people are very well informed about all the details of their particular orders. [edited]

There are also a few friars in here like Br. JR, who have a huge amount of knowledge on these things. If you are really interested in this topic, you can find a lot of very good information in CAF, information that is accurate and that checks out totally, where it’s been written many times already. [edited]

 

[iloveangels]

Please read what I wrote again in the last few posts.

PAX

I did. [edited]
Again, there is much very good information on 3rd orders in CAF. [edited]

 

[Bookcat]

Hence, in our Secular Order, the 1979 *Rule of Life *introduced us to the new reality of
“promises”. If Vows are taken after a year has passed since final promise, this legislation
notes, in Article 15: “These Vows are understood and interpreted in the same way as the
promises in articles 12 and 14.” These two articles refer to the promises of chastity and
obedience. Article 15 also notes: “The Vows add to the observance of chastity and
obedience the merit of the virtue of religion. They constitute a more complete offering of
oneself and therefore entail a greater moral responsibility.” We note in the profession
formulas used for Vows and Promises this difference: Vows are made “to God in the
hands of the superior…”, whereas Promises are made “to the Superior of the Order …”.
This difference is vital for the understanding of the Vows: their special merit consists in
the fact that they are made directly to God; hence they link us up with the virtue of
religion. It is here that we need to be precise: they oblige in accordance with the virtue
of religion, but they do not make us religious; and this is made abundantly clear in our
present legislation.
ocds.info/Formation%20Guidelines/PDFS/original%20formation%20pdfs/Vows.pdf

The Carmelite tertiaries have some great texts They are always very good on detail

In fact they were the first third order I encountered --long ago when I was a teenager and not even Catholic yet

The it was the Francisans…and then the others.

 

[iloveangels]

The Carmelite tertiaries have some great texts They are always very good on detail

In fact they were the first third order I encountered --long ago when I was a teenager and not even Catholic yet

Very cool. Are you interested in them particularly?

There are quite a few Carmelites in here, both OCDS and TOC. There are also Lay Dominicans, Benedictine Oblates and even some Servites, as well as many associates of other congregations. It’s really interesting to read about all the different charisms, structures and ways of doing things.

I don’t know if there are any Lay Augustinians or Lay Trinitarians. I’m not even sure that’s what they’d call themselves. I’d have to look it up. LOL. There aren’t as many of them as there are the Carmelites, Dominicans, Servites and of course, Franciscans.

 

[jwinch2]

It seems like every time the OFS (formerly SFO) is discussed, there is someone who tries to make the claim that they fall under the other branches of the order. An OFS member or Brother JR typically shows up in short order and sets the record straight, but whoever is disagreeing doesn’t seem to get it for whatever reason. On any number of threads here on CAF, one can see this process unfold. I encourage anyone interested to search through them as Brother and others have broken this down in great detail.

However, for the sake of brevity, I will take a stab at answering.

They don’t.

They are different.



Peace of Christ,

 

[Bookcat]

Very cool. Are you interested in them particularly?

There are quite a few Carmelites in here, both OCDS and TOC. There are also Lay Dominicans, Benedictine Oblates and even some Servites, as well as many associates of other congregations. It’s really interesting to read about all the different charisms, structures and ways of doing things.

I don’t know if there are any Lay Augustinians or Lay Trinitarians. I’m not even sure that’s what they’d call themselves. I’d have to look it up. LOL. There aren’t as many of them as there are the Carmelites, Dominicans, Servites and of course, Franciscans.

My interest has been in all of them…

The Carmelite texts where very useful when I did when I did my research and writing at Franciscan University of Steubenville on the Nature and Vocation of Secular Third Orders in the Church.

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Historical Third Orders

Secular Franciscan Order (Franciscan Tertiaries)
Lay Dominicans ( Dominican Tertiaries)
Secular Order of the Most Holy Trinity (Trinitarian Tertiaries)
Mercedarian Third Order (Mercedarian Tertiaries)
Lay Carmelite Third Order (Carmelite Tertiaries)
Secular Order of Discalced Carmelites (Discalced Carmelite Tertiaries)
Secular Servites (Servite Tertiaries)
Secular Augustinians (Augustinian Tertiaries)
Secular Augustinian Recollects (Augustinian Recollect Tertiaries)
Minims Third Order
Praemonstrian Third Order

Some Orders that have only one branch today…had more than one in history. Such as a discalced branch. The above however all exist currently.

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[iloveangels]

It seems like every time the OFS (formerly SFO) is discussed, there is someone who tries to make the claim that they fall under the other branches of the order. An OFS member or Brother JR typically shows up in short order and sets the record straight, but whoever is disagreeing doesn’t seem to get it.

They don’t.

They are different.

Peace of Christ,

Thank you, Jason. It is kind of complicated, largely because of history.

Anyway, yes, the autonomy that the OFS has is not without perils either. The newest rule was approved in 1978, which sounds like a long time ago, but in “order-time” it’s a blink of the eye. The order has been going through a unification process to get everyone on the same page in regions for quite a while now, and I think we’re almost there! The OFS is enormous. Now, we’re undertaking formation and identity issues. This is true in a big way in the USA, where we have a bit of inherent trouble understanding St. Francis and the Franciscan way because of our culture. You may have heard about the new formation manual in the USA. That’s next.