Seeing my narcissistic/sociopathic mother again after almost two years...nervous and anxious...please advise?

[EasterJoy]

To whom are you referring here? My children, or my inlaws? I cannot quite grasp the perspective you are using here.

She is no longer allowed to speak to my inlaws. I have told her to stop contacting them, and I have requested that they not speak to her. I have explained that she will attempt to destroy them to get to me, and that she will attempt to poison my relationship with them. Armed with that information, they immediately refused any further contact with her, which they had only tolerated for my sake before.

My children have not seen nor spoken to her in two years. Prior to that, she was never allowed to be alone with them, ever, since they were born. My oldest, who is 9, has some idea that my mother is not a safe person and that, though I love her, that I do not allow her to have much access to us. My other children are much too young to have any perspective on this.

Edited to add: or were you referring to my sister and niece and nephew, perhaps?

I meant your sister and your niece and nephew, yes.

 

[The_Bucket]

For the record, I’m the child of a sex/porn addict father and codependent mother who used me as her emotional outlet at way too young of an age. My family life basically consisted of my parents trying to hide all of my father’s misdeeds from the six kids, all the while the anxiety levels in the house reached levels that required my mother to take medication, my sisters to be very mistrusting of everyone (especially men) and me and my brothers to have our own battles with pornography addiction.

I do not ever go out of my way to involve my parents in my life. I take their calls. They see the kids. We visit once or twice a year. But I don’t involve myself in what they are doing and they do not call me often. Very often when we visit my wife has anxiety bouts because the home life is just insane there. So I more or less am passively involved in my parents’ lives and reach out to my adult siblings independently.

I just can’t go down that rabbit hole.

 

[EasterJoy]

At this moment, my thoughts about how to proceed are these:

Inform her prior to the visit that under no circumstances will we allow any physical contact to be initiated by her. If my kids, with their innocent loving hearts, want to give her a hug, I will allow that. But with her history of using a “hug” to threaten someone, and the fact that she dotes on male children and verbally attacks female children, I am not going to allow her to initiate anything.

I will also give her fair warning that if she makes any critical comments about myself, my husband, my children, my sister or niece or nephew, my step-dad (her ex-husband), or anyone else whom I know or care about, that the visit is over and we will leave. Similarly, if she tries to talk about personal matters or her therapy or our family history, we will leave.

Furthermore, I will inform her that she may not mention, critique or second-guess any of our boundaries, or we will leave.

I know that I cannot build a fence around her. My boundaries work only for myself and those under my own authority. But I am not going to make the effort to appear at the museum for a visit, unless I have given prior notice of my boundaries to her. At the very least, when we do have to leave early, I will not be kicking myself for not having given fair warning in advance, and I will be mentally prepared to follow through on exactly what I stated up front that I would do.

I already know that I have let her too far back into my life. My husband and I believe that both of us are still trying to wrap our brains around the idea that she is a dangerous person, despite all the years of evidence. His opinion is that now and then, until we prove it to ourselves, that we will reach out to touch the flame again and see if we get burnt. And that the only reason we are such slow learners in this matter is because this involves my mother, and not some other less-central figure in our lives. We had no compunction about cutting out some frenemies recently who behave in much the same manner.

So in preparation for our trip back home, we are going to create a list of boundaries for ourselves, and mentally prepare ourselves for having to defend those boundaries. Also, we will communicate our expectations to my mother. If she reacts badly, then we will simply cancel our visit. It would not be the first time we have gone back home and not seen her or some other family member who could not be trusted to not be abusive or manipulative.

In my own current state in life, I am guessing I would simply say I’d had some time to think about her proposal to join us at the museum, and based on how the conversation on the phone went, I decided we weren’t ready for a reunion yet. I would let her know that this decision was not negotiable, so it would be a waste of time arguing with me. She has a long history of abusing your trust, so she is entitled to nothing. This is one of your options.

Your husband may be right, though. Sometimes we cannot believe that another person is even capable of what habitual offenders habitually do. Then they prove to us again why we were so unwilling to trust them. If this happens, you will survive it. You are a strong person, you have made your way out of a lot of bad “scenes,” and if this one is bad, you will survive it and learn from it, too. As long as you are not doing any magical thinking, putting your hope in an outcome with no precedent in the past, I would trust you to do what you think is best and manage whatever results you get with all competence. You can give yourself permission to abort this whole thing, or you can give yourself permission to go through it and see how it goes, taking the worst or the best, whichever you get. The main thing is that you feel you have freely made the choice, because you will be the one living it. If you do that, I think you and your husband will do fine.

If you get a nice surprise, enjoy it! Don’t extrapolate it to mean more than it does, but permit yourself to enjoy an easy breath for a change. You’ll deserve it!

 

[mommamaree]

I don’t quite understand why you’d want to let her interact with you at all. She’s blood relation… so what? She’s also a serial abuser of her own children and is either so deluded that she does not believe you or anyone else when they inform her of the harm she’s done, or she doesn’t care.

I don’t see any reason to allow her in your life. At all. Ever. You’d all very likely be better off without her. Don’t sacrifice your sanity, your husband and your children in an effort to reach out to your niece.

Contact her directly if you can and try to establish some kind of rapport without your mother as middleman. If you can’t, well maybe you can try when she’s an adult.

Again, just because someone is family doesn’t mean you are obligated to stay connected with that person. Pray for her certainly. Love her as best you can as a Christian. But why expose yourself to that poison? Ever?!

The ONLY reason she is in my life at all, with any level of contact, is because of my conversion to the Catholic faith. Prior to that, we were estranged for quite some time (we actually have gone through several periods of estrangement since I reached adulthood).

When I converted, I became aware of the multitude of teachings on forgiveness, and felt convicted that I was in the wrong for estranging myself from my own mother. I struggle very much with my understanding of God’s mercy and compassion, and I still worry regularly that by not having a relationship with my mother, that she will enter into the joy of heaven and I will be damned. I am working on my obvious misunderstanding, but it is how I was raised to understand God, as a judge who would relish damning me if I put even one toe out of line. I thank God for my Catholic faith, and I am working very hard to root out false teachings, which had led to a decade of rebellion against Christianity.

Plus, as an added complication, my mother began the process of entering the Catholic Church because I had converted, and I feared that if I cut her out of my life completely, that I would be culpable if she then rejected the faith based on her perception of my behavior. But of course, she did the opposite and became the perfect Catholic, even while not having access to the sacraments just yet (she will soon be able to enter). She does all the perfect Catholic things and does them way better than me, dontcha know. It is the same old story. I should never have worried about me being a poor witness for the faith. I was always gonna be less than her anyway.

Sigh.

So that is why I have had any contact with her since I converted. It has been a very painful, bumpy road of me attempting to please God by learning how to live with her, while at the same time preventing her from utterly destroying me in the process.

 

[mommamaree]

I meant your sister and your niece and nephew, yes.

Yes, that made more sense once I thought about that. Thanks. I have set that example that you describe. I never badmouth my mother, but I do not stick around when she starts up again. I have called off visits, sent her home cross-country, stopped contact, etc. What I have not done is made that a permanent choice. I doubt that I will ever feel comfortable making that a permanent choice, but will probably have periods of estrangement and periods of trying until death ratifies it all. Well, actually, if she ever attempted to turn her sights on my kids, THAT would be the moment that it would be an irrevocable decision. But I have forbidden any contact prior to the upcoming visit, and she will never be allowed to speak to them on the phone or have any other unmonitored conversation with my children.

But yes, with regards to my sister and niece and nephew, I do as you say, and simply live out my choice as peaceably and kindly as I can.

 

[mommamaree]

For the record, I’m the child of a sex/porn addict father and codependent mother who used me as her emotional outlet at way too young of an age. My family life basically consisted of my parents trying to hide all of my father’s misdeeds from the six kids, all the while the anxiety levels in the house reached levels that required my mother to take medication, my sisters to be very mistrusting of everyone (especially men) and me and my brothers to have our own battles with pornography addiction.

I do not ever go out of my way to involve my parents in my life. I take their calls. They see the kids. We visit once or twice a year. But I don’t involve myself in what they are doing and they do not call me often. Very often when we visit my wife has anxiety bouts because the home life is just insane there. So I more or less am passively involved in my parents’ lives and reach out to my adult siblings independently.

I just can’t go down that rabbit hole.

This is all much more involvement than even I have in either of my parents’ lives, actually. I haven’t seen either my step-dad or my mother in years now. I speak to my step-dad (adoptive dad, actually) two or three times a year. I send him a card or a family portrait occasionally. I only recently consented to rare phone conversations (maybe 3 total?) with my mother, prior to that it was written communication only and before that it was a year of No Contact.
When we have had visits with my mother, my husband is affected much as your wife is, only he shuts down emotionally and checks out completely in order to distract himself from the stress. If he had his way, independent of any objective expectations for Christian adult children, we would never be in her presence again. He and I doubt that he will be able to come to my aid if she were to attempt anything, because his ability to check out would be his own coping strategy.

 

[newf]

OP,

It is hard for people who have ‘normal’ mothers to even begin to understand what you are going through.

There are some of us here who do understand. I stopped having my own mom in my life over 20 yrs. ago. It was the best decision and the hardest. Having her out of my life let me start to heal. I could finally begin to think clearly.

I would like to encourage you to leave your mom in God’s hands. You cannot fix her or your relationship with her. And take your focus to your husband and children. Pray for God to show you how to be the best wife and mom. Stay away from people who interact with your mom. You don’t need that in your life right now. You need to heal. And it will take time, probably years. But you have been blessed with a good husband and wonderful children, keep them protected from your mom. And protect yourself, too.

 

[njlisa]

Addiction can make* anyone* into a liar, a thief, and an abuser of trust. It is the great hijacker of character, and no one should count themselves immune to its power. When the addicted and/or alcoholic person becomes clean and sober and begins to address those things for which the addiction was “medication,” however, that person can indeed become a different person. This is particularly true when the addict or alcoholic had a sterling character before falling into addiction.

A person who has had no conscience or sense of shame over harming others to reach his or her own ends in his or her entire life, however, has a very difficult road to a good character. They only have their intellect and will power to carry them, and no help from their emotions. Even though these are among the most dangerous people there are, I would not leap to the conclusion that some of them do not do more good with less good help than many of us do. They feel no consolation in altruism, but have to take the word of others that “it feels good to do good.” The point is not to demonize them, then. The point is not to be left naively vulnerable to their real character flaws, which are no less real even if the person of bad character is not entirely culpable for how harmful he or she is to others.

Absolutely! Once my Grandmother got ill, my mother started drinking. And the next 30 years or so were hell. I stayed in touch with my parents until my mom just started getting absolutely vile. It made me sick. I don’t blame her. I don’t hate her. She just had a weakness for alcohol. In many ways, it was a blessing that she had brain cancer. The radiation destroyed a lot of her memory. If she had remembered her behavior, she would have been mortified. God rest her soul.

 

[mommamaree]

OP,

It is hard for people who have ‘normal’ mothers to even begin to understand what you are going through.

There are some of us here who do understand. I stopped having my own mom in my life over 20 yrs. ago. It was the best decision and the hardest. Having her out of my life let me start to heal. I could finally begin to think clearly.

I would like to encourage you to leave your mom in God’s hands. You cannot fix her or your relationship with her. And take your focus to your husband and children. Pray for God to show you how to be the best wife and mom. Stay away from people who interact with your mom. You don’t need that in your life right now. You need to heal. And it will take time, probably years. But you have been blessed with a good husband and wonderful children, keep them protected from your mom. And protect yourself, too.

Newf,
Thank you for your post.

I would really like to hear about how you carried out your decision to have no relationship with your mother. Would you mind sharing it with me? Maybe privately, by PM, if you feel more comfortable?

Specifically, I am wondering if you went through any periods of estrangement followed by periods of trying again. Did you experience any agonizing about whether you are being cruel, whether God will condemn you, whether you were the one in the wrong? I hope my asking these questions does not trigger you. I just have no idea how a permanent estrangement begins. I want that sort of freedom, but I am constantly second-guessing myself.

The short period of time since allowing her some contact with me has led me away from the hard-won sanity and stability that I worked so hard for. I feel like I am standing in front of an open door and looking at a world of pain and doubt and crazy-making on the other side, and I just want to slam the door. All the while, I stand there because I think if I slam that door, once and for all, I will literally have hell to pay in the end after all.

Then again, when I sought counsel from my priest on a couple of occasions, he reassured me that some people, no matter how closely related and no matter how much we might love them, are not safe, and are not to be trusted. And he said that keeping the commandment to honor my parents does not mean I have to continue to allow her access to me and my children.

So this is why I am curious how you initiated a permanent No Contact with your own mother. God bless you, newf, and I am very sorry that you have had to struggle with this in your own life.

 

[agnes_therese]

Just to clarify for anyone responding with advice, my mother is not simply a negative person. She has actively sought ways to destroy people, and then acted on her plans. She has done so to my inlaws, who are detached enough to be able to observe her machinations almost with amusement, and only mild outrage at certain egregious actions. She totally destroyed my little sister by telling her from the age of about 6 or 7 that she thought my sister was possessed by the devil (I just found this out last year when my sister tearfully asked me, her Catholic big sister, if it was possible that mom was right all these years). So, this is not just some mental illness. This is a person who has done some really destructive things, on purpose, with pleasure. After my sister moved back to our hometown, and had her second baby last year, and yet still reconciled with my mother despite all her “past” evil intentions, for the sake of my sister and niece, I have tried to reestablish some sort of communication, but it was ill-advised, I am quickly seeing. I now realize that my sister is currently being gas-lighted (and groomed as my mother’s newest preferred target since I am not around) and that it more likely that the “therapy” my mother is engaged in is just more narcissistic indulgence. Otherwise, why would she make comments about how easily she sees my vulnerabilities and my attempts to protect myself and my kids? I feel like her comment was my warning shot across the bow. It is so hard to explain. This is not just negativity. This is…something else. It is a situation where I can sense (after several years of trying to understand what was happening) that my mother wants to destroy me, and will use anything and everything at her disposal to do so. I don’t know why I ever thought that she could change.

I think that your own post, right here, tells you everything you need to know about whether you should ever have any contact with her again.

 

[sallybutler]

I would also add to your rules for the visit that if any of the kids look unhappy or uncomfortable or start crying, you will leave.

And a rule that you don’t need to tell her is that none of the kids will be alone in her presence. You or your husband must be present. No going to the bathroom alone with her, no standing in a line with her, no wondering off with her.

I suspect if you mention this one, she will work hard to circumvent it. Just do it with out telling her you plan on doing it.

 

[mommamaree]

I would also add to your rules for the visit that if any of the kids look unhappy or uncomfortable or start crying, you will leave.

And a rule that you don’t need to tell her is that none of the kids will be alone in her presence. You or your husband must be present. No going to the bathroom alone with her, no standing in a line with her, no wondering off with her.

I suspect if you mention this one, she will work hard to circumvent it. Just do it with out telling her you plan on doing it.

She already knows that she is not allowed to be alone with my children. That reality came up too many times, and I ended up having to be very blunt about it years ago, when my oldest was a preschooler, I think. And yes, she likes to bring that up, of course, as exemplified by my first post of the thread, where I mentioned that she made a “casual” accusatory comment about the venue being good for me to limit her direct contact with the kids.

 

[EasterJoy]

I think that your own post, right here, tells you everything you need to know about whether you should ever have any contact with her again.

I agree with you, but with this clarification, not because I think you are trying to tell her what to do, but because in her position with a lifetime of being told what to do, we have to be careful to support her recovering sense of herself:

She has every reason to cut off contact permanently and unilaterally. It is a moral choice and might even spare her mother a near occasion of sin, besides. Nevertheless, the threat to her is not so grave that it is immoral for the OP to attempt any level of contact at all. On that account, it is important that she reserve this decision for herself, a choice that she makes based on her own discernment of the situation. She has been diligent in doing the work to prepare herself to make her decision prudently and to work through whatever happens as a result, either good or bad. She has worked hard to make good use of her birthright of freedom.

Her mother has spent a life time attempting to take Mommamaree’s rightful authority to make her own decisions away from her. Our lives are not pre-determined for us by God so tightly that each act we can contemplate is either “right” or “wrong.” No, when God uses us as an instrument in His hand, we express our true self, including our God-given creativity. Her way through this difficulty will not just be a rescue, but a drawing out of who she is…yes, God can use it for her education and to form her! That does not happen so well when one of the rest of us get our hands too much in someone else’s crayon box.

It is good to advocate for the difficult decision of cutting her mother off, especially because her mother will try to use sentimental reasons to manipulate her daughter into honoring a relationship that her mother has gutted into a caricature of what it is meant to be. I only mean that we have to be careful with someone who has been the victim of so much bullying in her lifetime, lest in trying to help her we overwhelm her ability to listen to the voice of God in her own heart.

 

[Xantippe]

I agree with you, but with this clarification, not because I think you are trying to tell her what to do, but because in her position with a lifetime of being told what to do, we have to be careful to support her recovering sense of herself:

She has every reason to cut off contact permanently and unilaterally. It is a moral choice and might even spare her mother a near occasion of sin, besides. Nevertheless, the threat to her is not so grave that it is immoral for the OP to attempt any level of contact at all. On that account, it is important that she reserve this decision for herself, a choice that she makes based on her own discernment of the situation. She has been diligent in doing the work to prepare herself to make her decision prudently and to work through whatever happens as a result, either good or bad. She has worked hard to make good use of her birthright of freedom.

Her mother has spent a life time attempting to take Mommamaree’s rightful authority to make her own decisions away from her. Our lives are not pre-determined for us by God so tightly that each act we can contemplate is either “right” or “wrong.” No, when God uses us as an instrument in His hand, we express our true self, including our God-given creativity. Her way through this difficulty will not just be a rescue, but a drawing out of who she is…yes, God can use it for her education and to form her! That does not happen so well when one of the rest of us get our hands too much in someone else’s crayon box.

It is good to advocate for the difficult decision of cutting her mother off, especially because her mother will try to use sentimental reasons to manipulate her daughter into honoring a relationship that her mother has gutted into a caricature of what it is meant to be. I only mean that we have to be careful with someone who has been the victim of so much bullying in her lifetime, lest in trying to help her we overwhelm her ability to listen to the voice of God in her own heart.

Yes!

 

[mommamaree]

Thanks everyone. I am going to watch the new Lego movie with my family now and enjoy some stress-free family time. But I just wanted to pop in before I log off and say that I did actually find AgnesTherese’s post quite helpful. Having reason to look back over my own words of often very helpful for me right now, which is why forum participation has been so good for me to work through this. Her encouragement to look at my own words was just what I needed at that moment in the conversation. But as always, I appreciate everyone’s wisdom and advice. God bless you.

 

[Contra_Mundum_1]

I think any analysis that blames me for allowing her to have power over me is cruel. You have stated that she only has the power that I have given her. So therefore, in your assessment, any emotional distress that I experience is my own fault. But would you make the same bold assertion to a person who has a black eye from getting punched by their abusive bully? I think you likely would not. And I contend that whether the injury is visible or invisible, it is the bully who is responsible for the person’s pain, and not the injured party.

People do this a lot, I get it quite often regarding my situation. I think people want to be helpful and make the victim feel empowered (like we have the power to change things simply by changing our attitude). This is nonsense. People who think like that have no experience with narcissism and other personality disorders. I am so glad that you see through it and don’t fall to manipulation and guilt trips

 

[Contra_Mundum_1]

The ONLY reason she is in my life at all, with any level of contact, is because of my conversion to the Catholic faith. (…)

So that is why I have had any contact with her since I converted. It has been a very painful, bumpy road of me attempting to please God by learning how to live with her, while at the same time preventing her from utterly destroying me in the process.

Have you ever talked about this with a priest? A deep, long, honest talk about guilt and responsibility and what the church really teaches?

We are most certainly not obliged to destroy ourselves in order to honour our parents. I suspect you know that, but perhaps it has not really sunk in.

I have gone through **agonies **over this exact issue - fearing hell and damnation, but my survival instinct has not allowed me to cave in and go back to weirdo dad. So now whenever I feel guilty about estrangement I pray to God for forgiveness, in case I have indeed done something wrong. Maybe something like that would work for you: a “just in case” prayer. Like: “God, if I’m wrong please forgive me. But I can’t do this, it is too difficult. I leave my mom in your hands because only you can deal with her and I can’t. You know I’ve tried so hard.” Such prayers have really helped me to be honest about my inability to deal with dad, to admit that I’m not in control of my dad’s behaviour and that only God can deal with certain things and people. I found freedom in admitting to being weak and helpless and hurt.

Reading your posts I just have a sense that you have perhaps not accepted that she will not change and that you can’t control her behaviour, even with all the rules and firm decisions.

 

[mommamaree]

Have you ever talked about this with a priest? A deep, long, honest talk about guilt and responsibility and what the church really teaches?

We are most certainly not obliged to destroy ourselves in order to honour our parents. I suspect you know that, but perhaps it has not really sunk in.

I have gone through **agonies **over this exact issue - fearing hell and damnation, but my survival instinct has not allowed me to cave in and go back to weirdo dad. So now whenever I feel guilty about estrangement I pray to God for forgiveness, in case I have indeed done something wrong. Maybe something like that would work for you: a “just in case” prayer. Like: “God, if I’m wrong please forgive me. But I can’t do this, it is too difficult. I leave my mom in your hands because only you can deal with her and I can’t. You know I’ve tried so hard.” Such prayers have really helped me to be honest about my inability to deal with dad, to admit that I’m not in control of my dad’s behaviour and that only God can deal with certain things and people. I found freedom in admitting to being weak and helpless and hurt.

Reading your posts I just have a sense that you have perhaps not accepted that she will not change and that you can’t control her behaviour, even with all the rules and firm decisions.

Beautiful prayer. Thank you. This is so very helpful, especially since you have direct experience with narcissistic parent. And you are right, I have struggled to understand God, the God who revealed Himself and defied all human expectations and definitions, and it has made my path harder. I forget that I can turn to the very God who lovingly placed me in this situation, to beg Him for His protection and healing for my weak and wounded heart.
It has been so hard for me to watch my sister “reconcile” with my mother, and be the odd man out. It weakened my resolve. But recently I see that their lives are becoming intertwined and my sister seems less open and happy. I do not want to follow that same road. I need to pray and keep my distance.

I have talked to my priest. He had encouraged me to protect myself, with regret, of course. He sadly understood and reassured me that there was no sin in what I was deciding. Sometimes, though, when I get so confused and doubtful of my own recollection and experience, it gets really hard to remember his counsel.

 

[Contra_Mundum_1]

I am so glad that was helpful. Sometimes it is just about being reminded about what we already know.

I have struggled to understand God, the God who revealed Himself and defied all human expectations and definitions, and it has made my path harder. I forget that I can turn to the very God who lovingly placed me in this situation, to beg Him for His protection and healing for my weak and wounded heart.

I know the feeling of not being able to understand God’s role in my family drama. I thought it was my duty to stay in touch with dad and carry on as usual while he is digging his claws into my life and the life of my family (same thing really).

I’d like to share what happened that day when I decided to not contact my dad again because it was the greatest revelation about God’s love in my life. I went to church, all broken inside, needing to pray and ask God to forgive me this decision. I knelt in front of the tabernacle and cried my eyes out. I told Jesus I just couldn’t go on putting up with crazy stuff, especially since I was pregnant, and begged him to forgive me this decision to distance myself from my dad. I was so ashamed and felt like the worst traitor. And then something strange happened. I felt great peace and like the area around me was vibrating with a different energy, like everything was heightened, more intense. I suddenly felt like I was being held. I then understood that he was suffering with me all those years. That he loved me and carried me in the difficult moments. I knew he wouldn’t punish me because I suffered and it wasn’t my fault that my dad hurts people he claims to love.

It was the most amazing thing and I will never forget it.

So please don’t think that God will punish you. He has suffered with you and carried you forward. He helped you cope. He knows you are the victim of a deeply disturbed person. He knows it all. So please don’t worry. You are deeply loved

 

[Truth_Faith13]

Personally I wouldn’t see her, especially as (if I remember rightly) you are pregnant? You and your baby could do without the stress of the meeting.

Yours is the second I have read about a narcissistic relative. I’ve just decided to cut a few if mine (although extended) out if my length. It’s a relief in a way knowing you are not alone in having family members like it, but at the same time shocking because it leaves you asking…why on earth do they act that way?