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zerinus
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I would rather use the scriptures. I think that I can use the scriptures to do that a lot better than you can use the Catechism!
zerinus
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zerinus
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Rbt_Southwell
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I would rather use the scriptures. I think that I can use the scriptures to do that a lot better than you can use the Catechism!
The Catechism DOES use the Scriptures.The Church assembled the canon, z-ball.
It’s mormonism that uses the BoM, D&C, Pearl of Great Price, King Follett Discourse, private revelation (get rid of those wives! ‘retranslate’ that Curse of Cain section! Avoid mention of Jesus and Satan being brothers!) to spin their pantheology.
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psyche23
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Absolutely! But that’s not where you should stop either. It is fruitful to have discussions from everyone whether or not you agree, and I totally agree that you should give weight to their comments. I would love to see you become Catholic of course, mainly because I know the joy and peace it brings me. But in order for you to understand what is involved in being Catholic, you should also know why people leave the Church. Mainly people leave the Church because they don’t fully understand Catholic teaching, but enough make them think they do. My sister for example. But I value my sister’s opinion even if she does hate the Church. So yes, by all means take it all in, but be careful not to stop searching, or all you’ll get is falsehoods.
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psyche23
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"By the “standard works” we mean the scriptural canon of the Church, which consists of the Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price. I had explained that in my blog post, if you read it carefully enough. "
I guess what I meant was what does the Book of Mormon contain, What do you consider the Covenants to be and I’ve never heard of the Pearl of Great Price…
", let me make it clear that the LDS Church is not “individualistic”. It is anything but! "
I’d say there are probably a few people who disagree with that on these boards. I’ll certainly take that into consideration, but even some people who claim to be Mormons say that the religion is “individualistic”. So while I’m glad to have your opinion, popular opinion (at least on this thread) suggests otherwise. Of course I’ll continue to ask, but I know now where you stand and would like to see what others think.
“It has a prophet-leader at its head whose function in many ways resembles that of the Pope.”
Is this prophet leader still with you to help you through when times change (which they most certainly will). New problems and questions arise everyday which need answers. If you can not find the answers, who do you turn to? If you turn to your priests, they are fallible humans just like the rest of us. We have our Pope who has been blessed by God to help us though in matters of Faith and Morals.
You also ask for specifics on interpretations of scriptures. The first one that comes to mind is when at the last supper Jesus says “This is my Body, This is the cup of my blood”. Many sects have interpreted this as a symbolic term and not literal. The Catholic Church has always maintained that this is just what Jesus says it is. This is our teaching and has never changed. Of course there are other examples, but this is all that pops into my head at the moment.
If however, you were asking to give specifics on people breaking away from Mormon teaching, then I’m not qualified to give that answer. I’m sure however that some other people on this forum could help though. Have you tried the Ask an Apologist section? It wouldn’t surprise me at all if there were some, but since I’m so ignorant on Mormon interpretation of scriptures, then I can’t help. I do recall someone earlier mentioning something like a sea of glass that Mormons interpret to mean a different planet God lives on. That’s all I’ve heard, but again this is my first time really delving into the history of Mormonism.
"I did not say that the Catechism completely replaces the Bible. "
Good. I’m glad we can agree on that at least.
"But I have seen in many instances on this board when Catholics use the Catechism as the primary reference point for defining the theology of their religion. "
It’s okay to use it as a primary reference point, because it interprets a great deal of scripture to help us understand the meanings. If I were to go look up Leviticus with no one to guide me as to why those laws are still important, I would be clueless. The Catechism is a great way to be very concise and straightforward in our explanations of stuff. If we didn’t use it as a reference point, (primary, secondary or other) then what would it’s use be? Many of us are not scholars and have not gone to the Seminary to delve deeply into the Church’s teachings, so we go to what we know we can use and trust.
“We believe that all Church members receive the gift of the Holy Ghost when they are baptized and confirmed members of the Church”
Same here.
"and hands are laid upon them for the gift of the Holy Ghost. We believe that when they retain the companion of the Holy Spirit, they are able to agree among themselves, and with the leadership of the Church what the basic doctrines of the Church should be. "
It almost sounds like if you become baptised in the Mormon church, then you become infallible (at least when it comes to interpreting scriptures). I just don’t see how that can be the case if there are some people who claim to be Mormon have been baptised as such and disagree with you (or any other Mormon) .
“Experience has shown that in practice that is in fact the case. Jesus commanded His disciples to “be one” (John 17:11, 21, 22). I think that you will find greater unanimity of belief among the members of the LDS Church regarding its basic doctrines than among many other churches.”
I’d say the exact same thing for Catholics. I believe the only reason some people disagree with Catholic doctrine is they they don’t fully understand it. Otherwise for the majority of Catholics (even the ones who are somewhat ignorant of the theology) have great uniformity.
I guess what I meant was what does the Book of Mormon contain, What do you consider the Covenants to be and I’ve never heard of the Pearl of Great Price…
", let me make it clear that the LDS Church is not “individualistic”. It is anything but! "
I’d say there are probably a few people who disagree with that on these boards. I’ll certainly take that into consideration, but even some people who claim to be Mormons say that the religion is “individualistic”. So while I’m glad to have your opinion, popular opinion (at least on this thread) suggests otherwise. Of course I’ll continue to ask, but I know now where you stand and would like to see what others think.
“It has a prophet-leader at its head whose function in many ways resembles that of the Pope.”
Is this prophet leader still with you to help you through when times change (which they most certainly will). New problems and questions arise everyday which need answers. If you can not find the answers, who do you turn to? If you turn to your priests, they are fallible humans just like the rest of us. We have our Pope who has been blessed by God to help us though in matters of Faith and Morals.
You also ask for specifics on interpretations of scriptures. The first one that comes to mind is when at the last supper Jesus says “This is my Body, This is the cup of my blood”. Many sects have interpreted this as a symbolic term and not literal. The Catholic Church has always maintained that this is just what Jesus says it is. This is our teaching and has never changed. Of course there are other examples, but this is all that pops into my head at the moment.
If however, you were asking to give specifics on people breaking away from Mormon teaching, then I’m not qualified to give that answer. I’m sure however that some other people on this forum could help though. Have you tried the Ask an Apologist section? It wouldn’t surprise me at all if there were some, but since I’m so ignorant on Mormon interpretation of scriptures, then I can’t help. I do recall someone earlier mentioning something like a sea of glass that Mormons interpret to mean a different planet God lives on. That’s all I’ve heard, but again this is my first time really delving into the history of Mormonism.
"I did not say that the Catechism completely replaces the Bible. "
Good. I’m glad we can agree on that at least.
"But I have seen in many instances on this board when Catholics use the Catechism as the primary reference point for defining the theology of their religion. "
It’s okay to use it as a primary reference point, because it interprets a great deal of scripture to help us understand the meanings. If I were to go look up Leviticus with no one to guide me as to why those laws are still important, I would be clueless. The Catechism is a great way to be very concise and straightforward in our explanations of stuff. If we didn’t use it as a reference point, (primary, secondary or other) then what would it’s use be? Many of us are not scholars and have not gone to the Seminary to delve deeply into the Church’s teachings, so we go to what we know we can use and trust.
“We believe that all Church members receive the gift of the Holy Ghost when they are baptized and confirmed members of the Church”
Same here.
"and hands are laid upon them for the gift of the Holy Ghost. We believe that when they retain the companion of the Holy Spirit, they are able to agree among themselves, and with the leadership of the Church what the basic doctrines of the Church should be. "
It almost sounds like if you become baptised in the Mormon church, then you become infallible (at least when it comes to interpreting scriptures). I just don’t see how that can be the case if there are some people who claim to be Mormon have been baptised as such and disagree with you (or any other Mormon) .
“Experience has shown that in practice that is in fact the case. Jesus commanded His disciples to “be one” (John 17:11, 21, 22). I think that you will find greater unanimity of belief among the members of the LDS Church regarding its basic doctrines than among many other churches.”
I’d say the exact same thing for Catholics. I believe the only reason some people disagree with Catholic doctrine is they they don’t fully understand it. Otherwise for the majority of Catholics (even the ones who are somewhat ignorant of the theology) have great uniformity.
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psyche23
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cont’d.
“What would you do if the Bible and the Catechism disagreed? Perhaps you will say, they don’t! Well, we have reasons to disagree.”
Exactly what I would say. Took the words right out of my mouth. They don’t disagree because the Church is very careful what to put in the Catechism. If the Church has not said definitively on a particular subject, they say so and then give some tips on how to handle it. But it will not argue something that is not true. Just to reiterate, if the subject’s hazy, it either won’t be in there, or it will just say it’s hazy and why. If you have specifics you’d like to discuss, I’m more than happy to talk about it.
“What would you do if the Bible and the Catechism disagreed? Perhaps you will say, they don’t! Well, we have reasons to disagree.”
Exactly what I would say. Took the words right out of my mouth. They don’t disagree because the Church is very careful what to put in the Catechism. If the Church has not said definitively on a particular subject, they say so and then give some tips on how to handle it. But it will not argue something that is not true. Just to reiterate, if the subject’s hazy, it either won’t be in there, or it will just say it’s hazy and why. If you have specifics you’d like to discuss, I’m more than happy to talk about it.
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Paul_G
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Rbt_Southwell
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Paul_G
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As you say we have these writings because there has not been a break with the loss of our writen knowledge contained within our culture. All it takes is the loss of one generation to loose all that we know. This very thing happen to the Book of Mormon people.
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Paul_G
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Rbt_Southwell
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Rbt_Southwell
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psyche23
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Paul_G
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I suggest all those interested might investigate the modern name of the animal that produced Techelet the colour “royal blue”. For such an important animal to Jewish worship you would thing that we should know the animals’ name. However, there is no consensus as to what this animal was called. It’s name was lost to our cultural knowledge.
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Rbt_Southwell
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For some reason, being Catholic and being married to a Jew (who’s father was born in Palestine) made me an attractive mark for conversion from my mormon friends.
Throughout college and law school I was always being pressed upon by various arguments on the “truth” of mormonism vis-a-vis Catholicism.
Whenever I asked for further proof (other than “This is what I believe”) I was always proffered the bromide: “I have a burning in my bosom.”
Which means: it wouldn’t be a lie if the HS did not set my heart aflame.
Robert
Throughout college and law school I was always being pressed upon by various arguments on the “truth” of mormonism vis-a-vis Catholicism.
Whenever I asked for further proof (other than “This is what I believe”) I was always proffered the bromide: “I have a burning in my bosom.”
Which means: it wouldn’t be a lie if the HS did not set my heart aflame.
Robert
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psyche23
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gotcha.
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Paul_G
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Paul_G
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The truthfulness of the Gospel can not be proved by human words or artefacts, one must be lead to it by the spirit.
Paul
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Paul_G
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Good night
Paul
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BartBurk
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You have not met my wife who is a Catholic turned Mormon and who always spoke evil of the Catholic Church. You have not met my son’s in-laws who are Catholic turned Mormon who regularly do the same. You have not met many of the converts to Mormonism on my mission in Venezuela who were once Catholic. They often spoke evil of the Catholic Church. You simply don’t know what you are talking about.
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Chris-WA
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Zerinus, you assume the worst and take big leaps with something that isn’t there. I never said in my previous post that Mormon ex-Catholics are spouting hateful rhetoric. I was simply disagreeing with the other poster’s statement that ex-Mormon Catholics are doing so. I don’t see that at all. In general, they are providing excellent insight into their experiences in Mormonism, and are a wonderful source of information. Mormons seem to have a trained disposition to automatically dismiss such people without consideration of what they have to say. Anyone who says something contrary to LDS teaching, especially ex-members, are labeled “anti-Mormon,” or even worse “apostate.” (You are the biggest user of that word, one I don’t think I’ve seen any other Mormon use here because they have the good sense not to). This a defense mechanism whereby a person can automatically dismiss another without having to consider what they have to say instead of providing a reasoned, unemotional response.
Now if some ex-Mormons feel angry about how they were indoctrinated in the LDS church, I can certainly understand that, but I don’t see hateful attacks being put forth by them.
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