Seeking forgiveness of sin from God

[mcq72]

We all don’t minister to God’s people.

Well, we minister one to another, in a community, the ecclessia.

 

[Vico]

…
I know because I believe I have a God that will not renege on His promises.

A person can have a reasonable assurance, but not an absolute certainty of the state of grace, without divine revelation.

 

[mcq72]

They didn’t. Sapphira lied to Peter.

And David had Uriah killed, and committed adultery. David and Annanias did not go to confess but were " caught". David lived to repent, Annanias died on the spot.

 

[mcq72]

A person can have a reasonable assurance, but not an absolute certainty of the state of grace, without divine revelation.

One can’t have any assurance of such without divine revelation.

Again, I recall as a youthful Catholic, that the assurance battle of faith in God’s Word and shed blood sin for remission took place before entering the confessional , on our knees on a pew before the altar in a quiet, somber church, the penitent and their Lord examining conduct since last confession.

 

[mcq72]

I know because I believe I have a God that will not renege on His promises.

Yes, and this is one of the basic fundamentals that John must speak of in his epistle:

“Little children…ye know all things…and have an unction from the Holy One”

 

[Julius_Caesar]

And David had Uriah killed, and committed adultery. David and Annanias did not go to confess but were " caught"

Ananias didn’t confess. David did.

“I have sinned against the Lord.”

 

[mcq72]

Ananias didn’t confess. David did.

“I have sinned against the Lord.”

Yes, after he was confronted. And as I posted: “David lived to repent, Annanias died on the spot.”

 

[Vico]

Vico:

A person can have a reasonable assurance, but not an absolute certainty of the state of grace, without divine revelation.

One can’t have any assurance of such without divine revelation.

Again, I recall as a youthful Catholic, that the assurance battle of faith in God’s Word and shed blood sin for remission took place before entering the confessional , on our knees on a pew before the altar in a quiet, somber church, the penitent and their Lord examining conduct since last confession.

What I refer to is from the Council of Trent (Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma)

• Without special Divine Revelation no one can know with the certainty of faith, if he be in the state of grace. (De fide.)

Denzinger, Council of Trent:

802 Although it is necessary to believe that sins are neither forgiven, nor ever have been forgiven, except gratuitously by divine mercy for Christ’s sake, yet it must not be said that sins are forgiven or have been forgiven to anyone who boasts of his confidence and certainty of the forgiveness of his sins and rests on that alone, since among heretics and schismatics this vain confidence, remote from all piety [can. 12], may exist, indeed in our own troubled times does exist, and is preached against the Catholic Church with vigorous opposition. But neither is this to be asserted, that they who are truly justified without any doubt whatever should decide for themselves that they are justified, and that no one is absolved from sins and is justified, except him who believes with certainty that he is absolved and justified, and that by this faith alone are absolution and justification effected [can. 14], as if he who does not believe this is doubtful of the promises of God and of the efficacy of the death and resurrection of Christ. For, just as no pious person should doubt the mercy of God, the merit of Christ, and the virtue and efficacy of the sacraments, so every one, when he considers himself and his own weakness and indisposition, may entertain fear and apprehension as to his own grace [can. 13], since no one can know with the certainty of faith, which cannot be subject to error, that he has obtained the grace of God.

822 Can. 12. If anyone shall say that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in the divine mercy which remits sins for Christ’s sake, or that it is this confidence alone by which we are justified: let him be anathema [cf. n. 798, 802].
823 Can. 13. If anyone shall say that it is necessary for every man in order to obtain the remission of sins to believe for certain and without any hesitation due to his own weakness and indisposition that his sins are forgiven him: let him be anathema [cf. n. 802].
824 Can. 14. If anyone shall say that man is absolved from his sins and justified, because he believes for certain that he is absolved and justified, or that no one is truly justified but he who believes himself justified, and that by this faith alone absolution and justification are perfected: let him be anathema [cf. n. 802].

 

[goout]

So, if all are one Body in Christ…
What are the extensions of that unity that are pertinent to this discussion?
Clearly unity in Christ has an inseparable human dimension.
Or is that unity merely nice language expressing a bon homie between people?

 

[mcq72]

No. We don’t know what tribe he’s (Nathan) from.

I think we do .

“The sons of Jonathan: Peleth and Zaza. These were the descendants of Jerahmeel…Attai was the father of Nathan, Nathan the father of Zabad,…”…1 Chron.2:36

Jonathan was lineage of Judah, as found earlier in chapter.

 

[annad347]

Without special Divine Revelation no one can know with the certainty of faith, if he be in the state of grace.

Okay, since no one is going to ask I will… are you saying priest not only becomes the voice of God but knows you as God knows you when you confess to them?

So, if all are one Body in Christ…
What are the extensions of that unity that are pertinent to this discussion?

One thing unifies us… we all agree we need to confess our sins to God… be it a direct confession to God or through a priest. Confession is important in your relationship with God.

I don’t believe anyone said they never had a need to confess their sins, no matter the denomination.

 

[mcq72]

What I refer to is from the Council of Trent (Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma)

To me that basically has added to the gospel, in that now we must not only believe and be baptized, but also partake of sacrament of penance…so believe, be baptized, be confessed as best is possible to be saved (and we haven’t even discussed that we must literally eat Him, and attend mass also to be saved).

Of course naybe I jump the gone and misread Trent.

Does the CC say special divine revelation for assurity of sin forgiveness ( to be in state of grace) must be tied to the sacrament (s), and that validly via CC?

Or, per#802 Trent, no matter what we do are we to “entertain fear and apprehension as to his own grace”?

 

[Vico]

Vico:

Without special Divine Revelation no one can know with the certainty of faith, if he be in the state of grace.

Okay, since no one is going to ask I will… are you saying priest not only becomes the voice of God but knows you as God knows you when you confess to them? …

The act of absolution by the priest presupposes on the part of the penitent, contrition, confession, and promise at least of satisfaction. If the penitent does not have what is supposed, then there is no actual forgiveness of sins.

Martin Luther stated in the ninety-five theses that one could be certain that sins were forgiven by absolution. This is contrary to the necessity of contrition taught by the Catholic Church.

 

[annad347]

That is the exact same thing except you’re act of absolution is either being done in front of a man or in front of God… in reality they are both being done in front of God.

so why is one way considered right, while the other is considered wrong?

 

[goout]

That is the exact same thing except you’re act of absolution is either being done in front of a man or in front of God… in reality they are both being done in front of God.

so why is one way considered right, while the other is considered wrong?

Like so many other theological considerations, it all boils down to Christology. Who is Christ?
Christ is fully human and full divine. He enters into the human condition without reservation. And this includes sharing his gifts with his Church.

Salvation, forgiveness…these are not purely personal (or indidivudal) transactions between God>man. They take place in the context of the Church, because that’s who Christ is.
Christ is the head of a Body. And that Body is composed of other human beings carrying on the mission that Christ began, by his own delegation and according to his sharing of charisms.

 

[Wannano]

That is the exact same thing except you’re act of absolution is either being done in front of a man or in front of God… in reality they are both being done in front of God.

so why is one way considered right, while the other is considered wrong?

I agree with you…either way it is being done in front of God and He is the one who forgives. The man in front of you can be admittedly fooled and even more unsettling, he may be more full of sin than you are!

 

[Wannano]

annad347:

That is the exact same thing except you’re act of absolution is either being done in front of a man or in front of God… in reality they are both being done in front of God.

so why is one way considered right, while the other is considered wrong?

Like so many other theological considerations, it all boils down to Christology. Who is Christ?
Christ is fully human and full divine. He enters into the human condition without reservation. And this includes sharing his gifts with his Church.

Salvation, forgiveness…these are not purely personal (or indidivudal) transactions between God>man. They take place in the context of the Church, because that’s who Christ is.
Christ is the head of a Body. And that Body is composed of other human beings carrying on the mission that Christ began, by his own delegation and according to his sharing of charisms.

I don’t think we disagree much about who Christ is. I agree that Christ is head of the Church and that we all are a part of that Body. However I disagree with saying that salvation and foregiveness are not purely personal individual transactions between God an man. I highly doubt that God will have an earthly human priest helping him decide our eternal destiny when we leave this world.

 

[Julius_Caesar]

Yes, after he was confronted.

He confessed. Ananias did not.

 

[Julius_Caesar]

we do are we to “entertain fear and apprehension as to his own grace”?

Romans 11 has those words exactly.

 

[goout]

goout:

annad347:

That is the exact same thing except you’re act of absolution is either being done in front of a man or in front of God… in reality they are both being done in front of God.

so why is one way considered right, while the other is considered wrong?

Like so many other theological considerations, it all boils down to Christology. Who is Christ?
Christ is fully human and full divine. He enters into the human condition without reservation. And this includes sharing his gifts with his Church.

Salvation, forgiveness…these are not purely personal (or indidivudal) transactions between God>man. They take place in the context of the Church, because that’s who Christ is.
Christ is the head of a Body. And that Body is composed of other human beings carrying on the mission that Christ began, by his own delegation and according to his sharing of charisms.

I don’t think we disagree much about who Christ is. I agree that Christ is head of the Church and that we all are a part of that Body. However I disagree with saying that salvation and foregiveness are not purely personal individual transactions between God an man. I highly doubt that God will have an earthly human priest helping him decide our eternal destiny when we leave this world.

Didn’t say that a priest would help Jesus decide our destiny. Why did you bring that up?
Questions:
Do you ask others to pray for you? Why would you do that? Do you care if others are in heaven with you? Why?
Do you believe you have a unique vocation from God that benefits others? And that others have unique callings and charisms that benefit you?
If you do, then Christ giving his people these unique vocations and charisms is a common sense thing.