Seeking Opinions - Modesty of Dress

[Lucy_1]

Personally I would never initiate a conversation about someone’s dress, whether it be an issue of modesty, or something else. Most people are wearing the best they can within the perimeters of their comfort, taste and budget etc. For most people it would be humiliating.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

I’m certainly OK with a dress code, so long as it’s made clear to employees, and so long as employees agree to it and consistently uphold it. Parents at the OP’s school are well within their rights to clarify what that dress code is among faculty.

I agree with you. To have a dress code, clearly stated, is not the same thing as imposing modesty standards. Secular employers, more often than not, have clearly defined dress codes. Disallowed dress is not necessarily immodest, just deemed inappropriate for that particular office, type or work, or line of business. Macy’s requires its employees to wear black, and Target has some kind of requirement about wearing red, in both cases to enforce branding and to create a certain shopping atmosphere.

There’s a fourth category for those of us who strongly support custody of the eyes over fashion-policing.

Is this similar to the thinking that I detail in the third option above, i.e., “we will wear what we please, whatever feels good, looks good, makes us look and feel pretty, and it is up to you men to keep your minds out of the gutter — it’s not up to us to help you remain chaste”? That runs counter to all traditional Catholic thinking on modesty.

 

[Rau]

My questions are - do you think that it is reasonable for me to raise this with the principal and also does anybody have any suggestions for the best way to approach the discussion?

Is this teacher’s dress notably immodest in comparison with all other teachers and in comparison with that of your parish community (Eg. At Mass)?

 

[DeniseNY]

the CAF obsession with how women dress is unhealthy,

1000x this

 

[Newhills]

To those who asked about my wife - yes, she agrees that the dress is inappropriate. My wife bought up the subject when we left before I did.

She was not going to come with me to speak with the principal, however that is a very good suggestion & I can see a few benefits as per the posts here. My wife will now be attending.

You will not win this one. The principle might give a memo to the staff in general but will not single out this particular woman and she will not likely change her ways. Also, she may not have a lot of clothes to begin with. She might have worn that dress because it was laundry day, and she had nothing else.

Plus, when a woman wears something too revealing, she likely believes it’s up to men to avert their eyes (if she gives even a passing thought to men, which is unlikely.)

Thank you for sharing. In this case where we are talking 6 and 7 year olds, it’s not about averting their eyes. In my mind it’s about many things but at its most basic it is about a Catholic school upholding Catholic principals.

I’ve seen her wear many dresses and skirts that are extremely short and tight. It wasn’t just laundry day. At the time she did not teach my son so it probably wasn’t appropriate for me to raise the issue.

Maybe I won’t win. As (name removed by moderator) said, I will have spoken up for my beliefs.

The whole “modesty in dress” topic comes up every couple of weeks or so here on CAF. It never ends well and there is never any real resolution.

I know, right? I’ve read that thread. I very nearly didn’t post because I didn’t want the thread to spiral out of control.

Is this teacher’s dress notably immodest in comparison with all others and in comparison with that of your parish community (Eg. At Mass)?

Yes, very much so.

Personally I would never initiate a conversation about someone’s dress, whether it be an issue of modesty, or something else. Most people are wearing the best they can within the perimeters of their comfort, taste and budget etc. For most people it would be humiliating.

Nor would I, unless it has the potential to negatively influence my children, particularly in regards to church teaching.

the CAF obsession with how women dress is unhealthy,

I have no obsession. I’m talking about a Catholic teacher at a Catholic school.

I’m interested as to whether you would feel the same way if it were a teacher sitting in front of your 6 year old child every day.

What if I have a problem with how a male teacher dresses in front of my son? Would it be ok to raise the issue then?

 

[TK421]

I will say as somebody who has served in an administrative position in schools: your concerns are not at all unwarranted and in our diocese (which was not at all conservative) we were all conscious of our dress around children, especially around young teenage boys and young teenage girls that developmentally have less control than adults. This is a matter of common sense and the overwhelming majority of educators realize this.

So I would charitably bring this up with the administration and I suspect that they would recognize and validate your concerns. It can be difficult for a principal to address a teacher directly, but if a parent brings it up that gives them a lot more leeway to act. Please do not rely on the majority opinion.

Peace.

 

[DisorientingSneeze]

I didn’t read the entire thread so forgive me if this has been mentioned. Some of us women fluctuate in size. Perhaps the dress used to be better fitting than it is now. I’d leave it alone.

 

[Lucy_1]

Nor would I, unless it has the potential to negatively influence my children, particularly in regards to church teaching.

Can you be more specific as to what church teaching?

 

[Rau]

It can be difficult for a principal to address a teacher directly, but if a parent brings it up that gives them a lot more leeway to act.

Well, yes, it gives them the option to sidestep where they personally stand on the matter…! Much easier to blame “parents” than to declare the principal’s personal position.

 

[Newhills]

Sure, I can be more specific.

I’ve paraphrased very slightly, this is not word for word.

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

2521 - Purity requires modesty. Modesty protects the intimate centre of a person. It means refusal to unveil what should be hidden. It guides how one looks at others & behaves toward them in conformity with the dignity of persons.

2522 - Modesty is decency. It inspires ones choice of clothing. It keeps silence or reserve where there is evident risk of unhealthy curiosity. It is discreet.

2523 - Modesty inspires a way of life which makes it possible to resist the allurements of fashion and the pressure of prevailing ideologies.

2524 - Teaching modesty to children and adolescents means awakening in them respect for the human person.

 

[blackforest]

I have no obsession. I’m talking about a Catholic teacher at a Catholic school.

I understand. I was responding to another poster had mentioned a longstanding tendency on CAF.

To repeat and reiterate, you are well within your rights to clarify the dress code with school administrators and encourage its enforcement.

This isn’t just a Catholic concern. Secular workplaces, including secular schools, have commonsense dress codes.

 

[Newhills]

Thank you, I agree.

I also mis quoted, I was attempting to quote the person below you.

I found your comments to be very interesting.

 

[Kindnessmatters]

I personally would give it a few weeks so the principal has opportunity to notice and issue correction. If you continue seeing inappropriate outfits, then raising a concern would be appropriate.

If she’s been at the school for a while, something could be said now.

My point of suggesting delay otherwise is that you have a long road ahead with raising your son and if some issues are resolved without your intervention, you avoid becoming the parent who is perceived as “always” complaining.

 

[TK421]

TK421:

It can be difficult for a principal to address a teacher directly, but if a parent brings it up that gives them a lot more leeway to act.

Well, yes, it gives them the option to sidestep where they personally stand on the matter…! Much easier to blame “parents” than to declare the principal’s personal position.

I don’t actually know of any Catholic schools (or even most public schools) that would be okay with a teacher wearing a low-cut skin-tight shirt. Sure, it happens, but that’s because enforcement of the dress code can vary.

The notion that we should place the responsibility primarily upon 13-year-old boys and girls instead of on working adults is very bizarre and it goes to show that the forum isn’t an educator forum.

 

[Rau]

The notion that we should place the responsibility primarily upon the children instead of on working adults is rather bizarre and it goes to show that the forum isn’t an educator forum.

Did someone say responsibility is upon the children?

 

[TK421]

Did someone say responsibility is upon the children?

Yes, there was a post talking about custody of the eyes. Which of course is fine but teachers shouldn’t be wearing clothing that excites students. It isn’t either/or. Children have less impulse control than adults. Anybody who works in a middle school on planet Earth for one week figures this out pretty fast if they didn’t know it already.

 

[Asinner]

Burrr!

Unless you live in the southern hemisphere, this sure isn’t the a good time to be baring a lot of skin!

 

[Annie]

Thank you for sharing. In this case where we are talking 6 and 7 year olds, it’s not about averting their eyes. In my mind it’s about many things but at its most basic it is about a Catholic school upholding Catholic principals.

Also, older students will see her dress this way and think it is all right or have trouble with custody of their eyes.

 

[do_justly_love_mercy]

The principal presumably sees the teachers on a daily, or almost daily, basis. If the teacher you are talking about dresses like this habitually, you can assume that the principal is aware of her choice of clothing for work. If the principal shared you concerns, they would have been raised with the teacher by now and changes would have been made. I therefore think that you can safely assume that the principal is perfectly happy with how the teacher is dressing.

I think you are being very unreasonable. A woman is going to work to do a job and her managers clearly don’t have a problem with how she dresses. You have a problem with it because it offends your own personal ideas about how women should dress. I suggest it would be more profitable to put out of your mind any subjective, and ultimately arbitrary, standards of modesty in female dress and instead to focus on not objectifying and sexualizing the female body and not imposing additional restrictions of women’s freedom and choices.

 

[Jen95]

I suspect that this issue is awkward for the principal as well. Is the principal a man or woman?
It might make it easier for him (her) to use you as a scapegoat, but maybe then at least he / she can approach it at all. I also suspect that if the teacher obviously dresses like this, then the principal either thinks it’s okay, or is too weak to address the problem.