Seeking the True Church

[Marie5890]

Further, it is within the rules of the forum and lastly as a student of the law I know the this great and sadly today under constant attack document well enough that no one could teach me otherwise or try to convince me that my views can not be stated, whether on the forums or otherwise. The Founders of the USA and writers of the Constitution certainly understood that fully.

Kind regards.

You misunderstand the First Amendment

“Amendment I. Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.”

The government (Congress) can make no laws that curtail speech (though there are exceptions to even that. IE you can’t go into a public place and yell “fire” to cause chaos if there is no fire. A person will be arrested for that and other such acts)

Private institutions can very well makes rules that curtail speech. Private institutions are not the government. Businesses do this all the time.

 

[CourtingTex]

You misunderstand the First Amendment

“Amendment I. Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.”

The government (Congress) can make no laws that curtail speech (though there are exceptions to even that. IE you can’t go into a public place and yell “fire” to cause chaos if there is no fire. A person will be arrested for that and other such acts)

Private institutions can very well makes rules that curtail speech. Private institutions are not the government. Businesses do this all the time.

Whoever this is I would appreciate you STOP lecturing me about what government and the Constitution permit me to do on the forums or not on forums for that matter.

Apparently, it bothers you since you continue with your lengthy postings to me. Just stop.

Spare your fingers and me ---- I fully know my responsibilities on the forums, not on the forums. My guess is something I said got to you ---- as I said originally if you choose to be offended or do not like my motives in what I say ---- they are mine and you would be best to go after someone else and leave my views with me instead of lecturing me or trying to educate (Whatever on Earth you are doing…)

Kind regards.

 

[Marie5890]

Whoever this is I would appreciate you STOP lecturing me about what government and the Constitution permit me to do on the forums or not on forums for that matter.

Apparently, it bothers you since you continue with your lengthy postings to me. Just stop.

Spare your fingers and me ---- I fully know my responsibilities on the forums, not on the forums. My guess is something I said got to you ---- as I said originally if you choose to be offended or do not like my motives in what I say ---- they are mine and you would be best to go after someone else and leave my views with me instead of lecturing me or trying to educate (Whatever on Earth you are doing…)

Kind regards.

No, you didn’t get to me. Im just correcting what is a common misunderstanding many people have about freedom of speech and what the 1st Amendment says.

Fraternal correction is considered a spiritual work of mercy for Catholics.

If what I post either bothers you or concerns you, you do have the right to contact a moderator and have them take a look. It is one of the options CAF gives it’s users.

There is also the option of putting me on ignore.

 

[CourtingTex]

No, you didn’t get to me. Im just correcting what is a common misunderstanding many people have about freedom of speech and what the 1st Amendment says.

Fraternal correction is considered a spiritual work of mercy for Catholics.

If what I post either bothers you or concerns you, you do have the right to contact a moderator and have them take a look. It is one of the options CAF gives it’s users.

There is also the option of putting me on ignore.

I will keep that in mind if the moderators need to become involved.

Ignoring you has started ----- I am not on the forums to go after anyone personally.

Kind regards.

 

[Michael_Francis]

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

41 off topic posts removed.

Please remain on topic which is **Seeking the True Church

**For those who would like to see the context of (then) Monsignor Fulton J. Sheen’s remarks please click the following link.
Preface Bishop Sheen

 

[mackbrislawn]

The topic is “Seeking the True Church.” So, what is the “true” church? Doctrine? Apostolic succession? Is there such a thing as the true church?

 

[CourtingTex]

The topic is “Seeking the True Church.” So, what is the “true” church? Doctrine? Apostolic succession? Is there such a thing as the true church?

Specific characteristics of the Church of Jesus Christ would identify it as the true church.

 

[mackbrislawn]

Specific characteristics of the Church of Jesus Christ would identify it as the true church.

Aha. So there is such a thing as a true church.

And, obviously, a church that is the Church of Jesus Christ has to be a true church. But what about the Church of Christ.

 

[johnnyc176]

One of the things for me that proves the Catholic Church is the One True Church is the disparate ideologies lined up in array against Her, Atheism, protestantism, secularism etc. They all have different ideologies but one thing in common.

 

[Marie5890]

What is the difference between His kingdom and a true church?

A true church and the Gospel?

Was His ministry meant to preach the Gospel or set up a true church?

 

[Wannano]

What is the difference between His kingdom and a true church?

A true church and the Gospel?

Was His ministry meant to preach the Gospel or set up a true church?

Great questions and very timely!

He said His kingdom was not of this world. Seems to have been invisible. His ministry not only preached the Gospel but culminated in providing it resulting in salvation for all people who believe it. They are the true church. And He promised " lo, I will be with you always, even to the end of the world."

 

[TOmNossor]

• If I were not a Catholic, and were looking for the true Church in the world today, I would look for the one Church which did not get along well with the world; in other words, I would look for the Church which the world hates. My reason for doing this would be, that if Christ is in any one of the churches of the world today, He must still be hated as He was when He was on earth in the flesh. If you would find Christ today, then find the Church that does not get along in the world. Look for the Church that is hated by the world, as Christ was hated by the world. Look for the Church which is accused of being behind the times, as Our Lord was accused of being ignorant and never had learned. Look for the Church which men sneer at as socially inferior, as they sneered at Our Lord because he came from Nazareth. Look for the Church which is accused of having a devil, as Our Lord was accused of being possessed by Beelzebub, the Prince of Devils. Look for the Church which, in seasons of bigotry, men say must be destroyed in the name of God as men crucified Christ and thought they had done a service to God. Look for the Church which the world rejects because it claims to be infallible, as Pilate rejected Christ because He called himself Truth. Look for the Church which is rejected by the world as Our Lord was rejected by men. Look for the Church which amid the confusion of conflicting opinions, its members love as they love Christ, and respect its Voice as the very voice of it’s Founder, and the suspicion will grow, that if the Church is unpopular with the spirit of the world, then it is unworldly, and if it is unworldly, it is other-worldly. Since it is other-worldly it is definitely loved and infinitely hated as was Christ Himself. But only that which is Divine can be infinitely hated and infinitely loved. Therefore the Church is Divine.

                                                                           Ven. Msgr Fulton Sheen

Of course preceding Sheen is/was the Blessed John Henry Newman.
He said:

On the whole then I conclude as follows:—if there is a form of Christianity now in the world which is accused of gross superstition, of borrowing its rites and customs from the heathen, and of ascribing to forms and ceremonies an occult virtue;—a religion which is considered to burden and enslave the mind by its requisitions, to address itself to the weak-minded and ignorant, to be supported by sophistry and imposture, and to contradict reason and exalt mere irrational faith;—a religion which impresses on the serious mind very distressing views of the guilt and consequences of sin, sets upon the minute acts of the day, one by one, their definite value for praise or blame, and thus casts a grave shadow over the future;—a religion which holds up to admiration the surrender of wealth, and disables serious persons from enjoying it if they would;—a religion, the doctrines of which, be they good or bad, are to the generality of men unknown; which is considered to bear on its very surface signs of folly and falsehood so distinct that a glance suffices to judge of it, and that careful examination is preposterous; which is felt to be so simply bad, that it may be calumniated at hazard and at pleasure, it being nothing but absurdity to stand upon the accurate distribution of its guilt among its particular acts, or painfully to determine how far this or that story concerning it is literally true, or what has to be allowed in candour, or what is improbable, or what cuts two ways, or what is not proved, or what may be plausibly defended …

And of course, if we use this “mark” Newman provides and we gauge what church it points to based on posts here at Catholic Answers, I would think the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is a better answer than the Catholic Church.
I wonder if Bishop Sheen thought about Mormonism when he said this?
We of course know that Cardinal Newman did because he continues:

—a religion such, that men look at a convert to it with a feeling which no other denomination raises except Judaism, Socialism, or Mormonism, viz. with curiosity, suspicion, fear, disgust, as the case may be, as if something strange had befallen him, as if he had had an initiation into a mystery, and had come into communion with dreadful influences, as if he were now one of a confederacy which claimed him, absorbed him, stripped him of his personality, reduced him to a mere organ or instrument of a whole;—a religion which men hate as proselytizing, anti-social, revolutionary, as dividing families, separating chief friends, corrupting the maxims of government, making a mock at law, dissolving the empire, the enemy of human nature, and a “conspirator against its rights and privileges;”

Here at Catholic Answers this “mark of a true church” is well fulfilled by Mormonism!
That was too much fun, sorry!
Charity, TOm

 

[TOmNossor]

The topic is “Seeking the True Church.” So, what is the “true” church? Doctrine? Apostolic succession? Is there such a thing as the true church?

I doubt very seriously that Bishop Sheen didn’t consciously produce his list from Cardinal Newman’s An Essay on the Development of Christian Doctrine
As a Catholic you might be interested in his essay. His marks of a true development present a number of characteristics to be found within Catholicism.
Newman started his Essay as a High Church Anglican, but he became a Catholic.
newmanreader.org/works/development/index.html

Charity, TOm

 

[mackbrislawn]

Great questions and very timely!

He said His kingdom was not of this world. Seems to have been invisible. His ministry not only preached the Gospel but culminated in providing it resulting in salvation for all people who believe it. They are the true church. And He promised " lo, I will be with you always, even to the end of the world."

So, the true church is therefore somewhat undefined, consisting invisibly of whoever is saved. Of course we also seem to have different gospels preached, resulting in different collections of believers, and hence different collections of “saved.” And so, different true churches as well.

 

[CourtingTex]

So, the true church is therefore somewhat undefined, consisting invisibly of whoever is saved. Of course we also seem to have different gospels preached, resulting in different collections of believers, and hence different collections of “saved.” And so, different true churches as well.

I would generally agree with you ---- I believe there is one true church. A number of true churches regarding the same gospel of Jesus Christ can not be ---- Jesus organized one church — not several with differing views.

Kind regards.

 

[Wannano]

So, the true church is therefore somewhat undefined, consisting invisibly of whoever is saved.

It is undefined in terms that man wishes to apply. It certainly is not undefined in the qualifications Jesus gave us. It is totally visible when two or three or more gather in His name.

Of course we also seem to have different gospels preached, resulting in different collections of believers, and hence different collections of “saved.”

If they are teaching a different gospel other than Jesus Christ they are false. I myself do not like having different denominations however people are all different in many ways and still we are all God’s handiwork. All humans have the same needs, experience the same pain and joys and have the same God sized vacuum in their lives. There are different ways of expressing our worship of the same God. All are a part of the same true catholic church.

 

[CourtingTex]

It is undefined in terms that man wishes to apply. It certainly is not undefined in the qualifications Jesus gave us. It is totally visible when two or three or more gather in His name. If they are teaching a different gospel other than Jesus Christ they are false. I myself do not like having different denominations however people are all different in many ways and still we are all God’s handiwork. All humans have the same needs, experience the same pain and joys and have the same God sized vacuum in their lives. There are different ways of expressing our worship of the same God. All are a part of the same true catholic church.

I generally agree with you as a Latter Day Saint.

People are going to believe the gospel of Jesus Christ however they choose, whether Catholic, Protestant, or Mormon (Latter Day Saint). If we were all in uniformity, we would be in the same true church.

 

[Wannano]

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As much as I appreciate what you are saying I have to suggest you seem to be contradicting what you wrote in #34. Unless I am misunderstanding something.

I do not quite believe that people are choosing to “believe the gospel of Jesus Christ however they choose.” The way I see it, people choose whether or not to believe the Gospel of Jesus Christ period. How they live out and apply the teachings of Christ vary with different people.

 

[CourtingTex]

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[Vonsalza]

Either there is one true church or not at all.

Amen to that. It’s why I left Protestantism in favor of the Catholic Church.

If one’s church isn’t Catholic, Eastern Orthodox or Oriental Orthodox, then one requires Christ be a liar (if only for a short while) in Matthew 16:18; as one’s church otherwise lacks continuity from day 1.