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MichaelP3
Guest
Not to bud in here but seems you already have 3 there… just sayin
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Vonsalza
Guest
No! It’s a fair objection. They’re just the only ones I could identify that had actual historicity back to the 1st century.Not to bud in here but seems you already have 3 there… just sayin
I toss out the Orientals because they ran afoul of Chalcedon. Part of going to an ecumenical council is that you’ll accept the decrees. They didn’t. Took their ball and ran home, so to speak.
That left the Catholics and Eastern Orthodox. The grand ole “Question of the Papacy”.
We know how I chose, but I hold EO as full brothers in Christ. The squabble about “who’s the bestest bishop and what does that mean, exactly?” is between bishops as we still have to submit to 'em.
Fair objection, nonetheless.
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Wannano
Guest
I agree. It started at Pentecost and will never cease to exist.
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CourtingTex
Guest
Having someone agree on the true church is a first for me on the forums.
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Marie5890
Guest
That is odd, according the LDS dogma, it did cease to exist. It’s what the LDS church calls the “great apostasy”, and, in their view, give way to the need of a restoration.
If it never cease to exist, the only options left are the Catholic church or the the Orthodox.
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CourtingTex
Guest
As a former Catholic, neither are options for me. For us, that of course their choice.
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JMM1957
Guest
From official LDS website: Apostasy
“When individuals or groups of people turn away from the principles of the gospel, they are in a state of apostasy. One example is the Great Apostasy, which occurred after the Savior established His Church. After the deaths of the Savior and His Apostles, men corrupted the principles of the gospel and made unauthorized changes in Church organization and priesthood ordinances. Because of this widespread apostasy, the Lord withdrew the authority of the priesthood from the earth. This apostasy lasted until Heavenly Father and His Beloved Son appeared to Joseph Smith in 1820 and initiated the restoration of the fulness of the gospel.”
I assume you believe in all official LDS teachings, so if you could please give sources which back up this up this claim of apostasy in the first century church.
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adf417
Guest
Greetings Wannano,
Peace!!!
Agreed!
Agreed…but not as an only criteria.
Agreed!
If this were true people wouldn’t be going around asking “which church is the true church”. There are many ways of expressing our worship of the same God but there is only one way he prescribed and you can’t sell the fact that we are all doing it the same way.
I have never met anyone looking for the true church who didn’t know this fact you speak and yet were still were asking for deeply honest reasons. I have also never met anyone looking for the true church that felt this answer you speak fulfilled their needs.
Peace!!!
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CourtingTex
Guest
Here is my reply, in my own words, in accord with official LDS doctrine ------- Jesus Christ organized his church and over time after his death, for example Martin Luther started the Lutheran church and other founders created other Protestant churches. Catholicism, you know what you profess ---- the question I asked myself years ago while still a Catholic ----- did I want to remain a Catholic in light of questions I asked about it origin and foundation OR would I investigate the church that has elements that exist in the Church of Jesus Christ and no where else. Obviously for myself, the apostasy was a no brainer.
Now, as I have read and known, Catholicism does not believe the Church of Jesus Christ fell into apostasy so why would someone like me need to convert and leave the Catholic church???
Official LDS doctrine explains the First Vision (Joseph Smith wanted to know what existing church to join through prayer - the First Vision happened — further if the true church existed at the time of his prayer, the First Vision would not have a occured and Joseph Smith would have told to join whatever church that was the true church), the restoration of the priesthood, and the organization of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.
I fully recognize loyal Catholics and others do not have to believe any of that. Fortunately for you and I, we have agency ---- the act to choose to know the truth or not ---- (look up on offical LDS sources the church’s definition) — basically I left Catholicism, learned what it was in terms of the elements of Church of Jesus Christ and why I have a conviction of the truth through the Holy Ghost of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.
Kind regards.
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Marie5890
Guest
You are contradicting yourself. In your #43 post, where you quote post #42, you agreed that at the founding of the true church at Pentecost, it never ceased to exists.
But Mormonism teaches it DID CEASE to exist (i.e. the great apostasy).
So in your view, did the church which Christ founded cease to exist or not?
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CourtingTex
Guest
As a former Catholic and loyal Latter Day Saint (Mormon) for almost 30 years, my answer to your question is pretty clear. Otherwise, I would have remained in the Catholic parish and not investigated/taken missionary discussions in the church I am loyal to now.You are contradicting yourself. In your #43 post, where you quote post #42, you agreed that at the founding of the true church at Pentecost, it never ceased to exists.
But Mormonism teaches it DID CEASE to exist (i.e. the great apostasy).
So in your view, did the church which Christ founded cease to exist or not?
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JMM1957
Guest
First, are you saying the true church apostatized because Martin Luther and other Reformers broke away from the CC 1500 yrs. later?
Second, rather than generalizing, please explain further the questions you asked yourself about the CC origin and foundations? You do realize that specifics are very important here to have a serious discussion about “seeking the true church”, because, as a Catholic, I’m trying to figure out the thought process of a LDS member?
Third, how was the apostasy a “no brainer” for you. Kindly give one single reason that convinced you without a doubt?
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Marie5890
Guest
i’m being to think that just like there are “cafeteria Catholics” there are “cafeteria Mormons”
I remember thinking that about Jane_Doe. I’m seeing it with others as well, now.
I remember thinking that about Jane_Doe. I’m seeing it with others as well, now.
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CourtingTex
Guest
Catholicism and the characteristics (elements) of the church organized by Jesus Christ were not all there as I learned the truth elsewhere almost 30 years ago.
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Marie5890
Guest
According to LDS manual known as “Doctrines of the Gospel”, the great apostasy happened at the death of Christ’s apostles, a millennium and a half before Luther…
lds.org/manual/doctrines-of-the-gospel-student-manual/chapter-22-the-apostasy?lang=eng
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CourtingTex
Guest
Of course individual members can pick and choose what to believe in the church. I would submit, for some, they are going through whatever process personally in growing their faith.
Is a new member going to have a conviction of what we believe versus a member of 50 years?
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Horton
Guest
You keep saying the Catholic Church is not the true church because you don’t believe it to be true. I know the LDS is not what it claims and I can articulate why I believe it.
What specifically forms your belief that LDS is true?
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JMM1957
Guest
I would appreciate specifics, general statements carry no weight with me, and probably others that are reading this.
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CourtingTex
Guest
My answer through study and prayer, with confirmation through the Holy Ghost is what brought me to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Those who want specific answers ---- ask me privately. I am not going to answer here beyond what I said here.
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JMM1957
Guest
What’s the point of you participating in this open discussion if you won’t back up general statements with specifics? I’m quite sure you would want specifics from a Catholic if you were trying to understand their point of view. At least provide links to LDS sources which will give specifics we are looking for.
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