Seeking the True Church

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JMM1957 said:
I hope you are not misunderstanding my point. Of course we call ourselves Christian, but I thought you were referring to the actual name of your church, Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.
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My church’s name is correct, the church of Christ in the last days.
 
CourtingTex said:
My church’s name is correct, the church of Christ in the last days.
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Ok, sigh, so what you are saying is that the name of the only true church of Jesus, is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints? You must use that exact name to be legitimate, correct?
 
CourtingTex said:
Here the characteristics
1 Christ organized the church (Eph 4:11-14)
2 The true church must bear the name of Jesus Christ (Eph 5:23)
3 The true church must have a foundation of apostles and prophets (Eph 2:19-20)
4 The true church must have the same organization as Christ’s church (Eph 4:11-14)
5 The true church must claim divine authority (Heb 5:4-10)
6 The true church must have no paid ministry (1 Cor 9:16-18,Acts 20:33-34,John 10:11-13)
7 The true church must baptise by immersion (Matt 3:13-16)
8 The true church must bestow the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands (Acts 8:14-17)
9. The true church must practice divine healing (Mark 3:14-15)
10 The true church must teach that God and Jesus are separate and distinct individuals (John 17:11, 20:17)
11 The true church must teach that God and Jesus have bodies of flesh and bone (Luke 23:36-39, Acts 1:9-11, Heb 1:1-3)
12 The officers must be called by God (Heb 4:4, Ex 28:1, 40:13-16)
13 The true church must claim revelation from God (Amos 3:7)
14 The true church must be a missionary church (Matt 28:19-20)
15 The true church must be a restored church (Acts 3:19-20)
16 The true church must practice baptism for the dead (1 Cor 15:16 &29)
17 “By their fruits ye shall know them” (Matt 7:20)
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True, he founded the one true Church.
 
CourtingTex said:
Here the characteristics
1 Christ organized the church (Eph 4:11-14)
2 The true church must bear the name of Jesus Christ (Eph 5:23)
3 The true church must have a foundation of apostles and prophets (Eph 2:19-20)
4 The true church must have the same organization as Christ’s church (Eph 4:11-14)
5 The true church must claim divine authority (Heb 5:4-10)
6 The true church must have no paid ministry (1 Cor 9:16-18,Acts 20:33-34,John 10:11-13)
7 The true church must baptise by immersion (Matt 3:13-16)
8 The true church must bestow the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands (Acts 8:14-17)
9. The true church must practice divine healing (Mark 3:14-15)
10 The true church must teach that God and Jesus are separate and distinct individuals (John 17:11, 20:17)
11 The true church must teach that God and Jesus have bodies of flesh and bone (Luke 23:36-39, Acts 1:9-11, Heb 1:1-3)
12 The officers must be called by God (Heb 4:4, Ex 28:1, 40:13-16)
13 The true church must claim revelation from God (Amos 3:7)
14 The true church must be a missionary church (Matt 28:19-20)
15 The true church must be a restored church (Acts 3:19-20)
16 The true church must practice baptism for the dead (1 Cor 15:16 &29)
17 “By their fruits ye shall know them” (Matt 7:20)
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The true Church must have Apostolic Succession up until the present day.
 
CourtingTex said:
Here the characteristics
1 Christ organized the church (Eph 4:11-14)
2 The true church must bear the name of Jesus Christ (Eph 5:23)
3 The true church must have a foundation of apostles and prophets (Eph 2:19-20)
4 The true church must have the same organization as Christ’s church (Eph 4:11-14)
5 The true church must claim divine authority (Heb 5:4-10)
6 The true church must have no paid ministry (1 Cor 9:16-18,Acts 20:33-34,John 10:11-13)
7 The true church must baptise by immersion (Matt 3:13-16)
8 The true church must bestow the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands (Acts 8:14-17)
9. The true church must practice divine healing (Mark 3:14-15)
10 The true church must teach that God and Jesus are separate and distinct individuals (John 17:11, 20:17)
11 The true church must teach that God and Jesus have bodies of flesh and bone (Luke 23:36-39, Acts 1:9-11, Heb 1:1-3)
12 The officers must be called by God (Heb 4:4, Ex 28:1, 40:13-16)
13 The true church must claim revelation from God (Amos 3:7)
14 The true church must be a missionary church (Matt 28:19-20)
15 The true church must be a restored church (Acts 3:19-20)
16 The true church must practice baptism for the dead (1 Cor 15:16 &29)
17 “By their fruits ye shall know them” (Matt 7:20)
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The true Church and Christ’s Church are one and the same.
 
CourtingTex said:
Here the characteristics
1 Christ organized the church (Eph 4:11-14)
2 The true church must bear the name of Jesus Christ (Eph 5:23)
3 The true church must have a foundation of apostles and prophets (Eph 2:19-20)
4 The true church must have the same organization as Christ’s church (Eph 4:11-14)
5 The true church must claim divine authority (Heb 5:4-10)
6 The true church must have no paid ministry (1 Cor 9:16-18,Acts 20:33-34,John 10:11-13)
7 The true church must baptise by immersion (Matt 3:13-16)
8 The true church must bestow the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands (Acts 8:14-17)
9. The true church must practice divine healing (Mark 3:14-15)
10 The true church must teach that God and Jesus are separate and distinct individuals (John 17:11, 20:17)
11 The true church must teach that God and Jesus have bodies of flesh and bone (Luke 23:36-39, Acts 1:9-11, Heb 1:1-3)
12 The officers must be called by God (Heb 4:4, Ex 28:1, 40:13-16)
13 The true church must claim revelation from God (Amos 3:7)
14 The true church must be a missionary church (Matt 28:19-20)
15 The true church must be a restored church (Acts 3:19-20)
16 The true church must practice baptism for the dead (1 Cor 15:16 &29)
17 “By their fruits ye shall know them” (Matt 7:20)
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The true Church is Holy, and is guided and taught by the Holy Spirit. The gates of Hell will not prevail against it, ever.
 
CourtingTex said:
Here the characteristics
1 Christ organized the church (Eph 4:11-14)
2 The true church must bear the name of Jesus Christ (Eph 5:23)
3 The true church must have a foundation of apostles and prophets (Eph 2:19-20)
4 The true church must have the same organization as Christ’s church (Eph 4:11-14)
5 The true church must claim divine authority (Heb 5:4-10)
6 **The true church must have no paid ministry **(1 Cor 9:16-18,Acts 20:33-34,John 10:11-13)
7 The true church must baptise by immersion (Matt 3:13-16)
8 The true church must bestow the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands (Acts 8:14-17)
9. The true church must practice divine healing (Mark 3:14-15)
10 The true church must teach that God and Jesus are separate and distinct individuals (John 17:11, 20:17)
11 The true church must teach that God and Jesus have bodies of flesh and bone (Luke 23:36-39, Acts 1:9-11, Heb 1:1-3)
12 The officers must be called by God (Heb 4:4, Ex 28:1, 40:13-16)
13 The true church must claim revelation from God (Amos 3:7)
14 The true church must be a missionary church (Matt 28:19-20)
15 The true church must be a restored church (Acts 3:19-20)
16 The true church must practice baptism for the dead (1 Cor 15:16 &29)
17 “By their fruits ye shall know them” (Matt 7:20)
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Matthew 10:10

“The worker is worthy of his support”

In the chapter above, Jesus told the disciples that their support would come from the people they preached to in the cities they visited, such as being fed, housed, etc. Do your missionaries stay in the homes of the people they preach to, and eat their food?
 
JMM1957 said:
Ok, sigh, so what you are saying is that the name of the only true church of Jesus, is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints? You must use that exact name to be legitimate, correct?
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Joseph Smith was told the Lord’s church would be called the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints by revelation ----- he did not create the name on his own at all.
 
CourtingTex said:
Joseph Smith was told the Lord’s church would be called the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints by revelation ----- he did not create the name on his own at all.
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But if I don’t accept the visions or revelations of Joseph Smith, then what? What you are implying is that the true Church never got named properly because of the Great Apostasy, correct? But if Jesus said in Matthew 16:18 that the gates of Hell would not prevail over His Church, then that indicates that the true Church would never apostatize, so there is a contradiction, would you agree? So, it comes down to accepting a mortal man’s (Joseph Smith) teachings, or what Jesus himself said in Matthew 16:18 about the true Church. I know who I trust, who do you trust? You cannot have it both ways, I’m sorry.
 
JMM1957 said:
But if I don’t accept the visions or revelations of Joseph Smith, then what? What you are implying is that the true Church never got named properly because of the Great Apostasy, correct? But if Jesus said in Matthew 16:18 that the gates of Hell would not prevail over His Church, then that indicates that the true Church would never apostatize, so there is a contradiction, would you agree? So, it comes down to accepting a mortal man’s (Joseph Smith) teachings, or what Jesus himself said in Matthew 16:18 about the true Church. I know who I trust, who do you trust? You cannot have it both ways, I’m sorry.
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You can think what you want about Joseph Smith. I recognize the restored gospel and church are a issue for some people.

The list of characteristics (17) of Christ’s church exist only in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

Partly, in other churches otherwise.
 
CourtingTex said:
You can think what you want about Joseph Smith. I recognize the restored gospel and church are a issue for some people.

The list of characteristics (17) of Christ’s church exist only in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

Partly, in other churches otherwise.
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CT, what about the contradiction between the so-called Great Apostasy and Matthew 16:18? You can’t have it both ways, one has to be wrong.
 
JMM1957 said:
CT, what about the contradiction between the so-called Great Apostasy and Matthew 16:18? You can’t have it both ways, one has to be wrong.
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The apostasy happened otherwise no need for a restored gospel and church.
 
CourtingTex said:
The apostasy happened otherwise no need for a restored gospel and church.
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In light of Matthew Matthew 16:18, the Great Apostasy cannot have happened else Christ be a liar. Ergo, you’re kinda right on that last bit.

There is no need for a “restored” gospel and Church. It cannot fail. Not even temporarily.
 
Vonsalza said:
In light of Matthew Matthew 16:18, the Great Apostasy cannot have happened else Christ be a liar. Ergo, you’re kinda right on that last bit.

There is no need for a “restored” gospel and Church. It cannot fail. Not even temporarily.
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Prophets revealed that Christ’s church would not remain as it was originally — additionally look at all the Protestant churches that exist today, making it clear to me that Catholicism lacked characteristics.

My church has those characteristics that Catholicism has where in its organizational structure?
 
Here the characteristics
1 Christ organized the church (Eph 4:11-14)

Don’t disagree but would have used Matthew 16:18

2 The true church must bear the name of Jesus Christ (Eph 5:23)

States that Jesus is the head of the Church which is true is does not state what the name of the Church should be

3 The true church must have a foundation of apostles and prophets (Eph 2:19-20)

The Church should be Apostolic

4 The true church must have the same organization as Christ’s church (Eph 4:11-14)
ok

5 The true church must claim divine authority (Heb 5:4-10)
ok

6 The true church must have no paid ministry (1 Cor 9:16-18,Acts 20:33-34,John 10:11-13)

This does not show that it “must” only that Paul chose not to. John is pointing out that Jesus laid down his life of His own will.

7 The true church must baptise by immersion (Matt 3:13-16)

There is no mention of immersion in Matthew even if it did. Nowhere does it say that it must be by immersion. Acts Chapter 2:41 says that 3000 were baptized in one
day. It would be an impossiblility if all were immersed.

8 The true church must bestow the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands (Acts 8:14-17)
ok but who laid hands on the apostles?
  1. The true church must practice divine healing (Mark 3:14-15)
    I am unsure what you mean by divine healing?
10 The true church must teach that God and Jesus are separate and distinct individuals (John 17:11, 20:17)

Jesus is God. God is a Trinity Father Son and Holy Spirit.

11 The true church must teach that God and Jesus have bodies of flesh and bone (Luke 23:36-39, Acts 1:9-11, Heb 1:1-3)

Jesus is God and does have a body. The Father and Holy Spirit do not. None of the cited scripture says that they do. Nor does anything else in scripture.

12 The officers must be called by God (Heb 4:4, Ex 28:1, 40:13-16)

ok I don’t see it in your citations that it is a “must”

13 The true church must claim revelation from God (Amos 3:7)

ok but I don’t see that claim in your citation

14 The true church must be a missionary church (Matt 28:19-20)
ok

15 The true church must be a restored church (Acts 3:19-20)

Not substantiated by this scripture.

16 The true church must practice baptism for the dead (1 Cor 15:16 &29)

1 Cor 15:16 is referring to the resurrection of the dead. Paul is not condoning a practise but questioning why do it if there is no resurrection. No where is it
stated by Paul to practise it.

17 “By their fruits ye shall know them” (Matt 7:20)

This was an ending to a warning to beware of false prophets.
 
CourtingTex said:
Prophets revealed that Christ’s church would not remain as it was originally — additionally look at all the Protestant churches that exist today, making it clear to me that Catholicism lacked characteristics.

My church has those characteristics that Catholicism has where in its organizational structure?
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What prophets? Luther and others left the CC, not the other way around. And then more churches broke away from Luther and others, and on and on and on. What makes you think that because the Reformation occurred, the CC was not the true Church? If someone leaves your church for another, does that make your Church of LDS less of a church, or even worse, no church at all?
 
adrift said:
Here the characteristics
1 Christ organized the church (Eph 4:11-14)
Don’t disagree but would have used Matthew 16:18
2 The true church must bear the name of Jesus Christ (Eph 5:23)
States that Jesus is the head of the Church which is true is does not state what the name of the Church should be
3 The true church must have a foundation of apostles and prophets (Eph 2:19-20)
The Church should be Apostolic
4 The true church must have the same organization as Christ’s church (Eph 4:11-14)
ok
5 The true church must claim divine authority (Heb 5:4-10)
ok
6 The true church must have no paid ministry (1 Cor 9:16-18,Acts 20:33-34,John 10:11-13)
This does not show that it “must” only that Paul chose not to. John is pointing out that Jesus laid down his life of His own will.
7 The true church must baptise by immersion (Matt 3:13-16)
There is no mention of immersion in Matthew even if it did. Nowhere does it say that it must be by immersion. Acts Chapter 2:41 says that 3000 were baptized in one
day. It would be an impossiblility if all were immersed.
8 The true church must bestow the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands (Acts 8:14-17)
ok but who laid hands on the apostles?
9. The true church must practice divine healing (Mark 3:14-15)
I am unsure what you mean by divine healing?
10 The true church must teach that God and Jesus are separate and distinct individuals (John 17:11, 20:17)
Jesus is God. God is a Trinity Father Son and Holy Spirit.
11 The true church must teach that God and Jesus have bodies of flesh and bone (Luke 23:36-39, Acts 1:9-11, Heb 1:1-3)
Jesus is God and does have a body. The Father and Holy Spirit do not. None of the cited scripture says that they do. Nor does anything else in scripture.
12 The officers must be called by God (Heb 4:4, Ex 28:1, 40:13-16)
ok I don’t see it in your citations that it is a “must”
13 The true church must claim revelation from God (Amos 3:7)
ok but I don’t see that claim in your citation
14 The true church must be a missionary church (Matt 28:19-20)
ok
15 The true church must be a restored church (Acts 3:19-20)
Not substantiated by this scripture.
16 The true church must practice baptism for the dead (1 Cor 15:16 &29)
1 Cor 15:16 is referring to the resurrection of the dead. Paul is not condoning a practise but questioning why do it if there is no resurrection. No where is it
stated by Paul to practise it.
17 “By their fruits ye shall know them” (Matt 7:20)
This was an ending to a warning to beware of false prophets.
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Nice try.

I could provide academic sources beyond scriptures that validate these characteristics.

For me, when we collectively interpret the scriptures differently, further explains among other reasons why different churches exist with different translations of the Bible.

Of course, you can just hate the list when Catholicism can not prove itself to me so I would remain a member almost 30 years ago.
 
CourtingTex said:
Prophets revealed that Christ’s church would not remain as it was originally — additionally look at all the Protestant churches that exist today, making it clear to me that Catholicism lacked characteristics.
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Just like every restorationist sect that popped up in the 19th century (and there were a lot of 'em) the Mormons have experienced fracturing and fragmenting of the same type.

The Wiki gives a good intro on the Mormon denominations.

Look like nearly 20 survive to today.
My church has those characteristics that Catholicism has where in its organizational structure?
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I’m afraid I don’t understand the question. Care to rephrase?
 
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