Senior Catholic clerics weigh in on gay marriage

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Separately, I think the notion that Josh brings up that kids will learn homosexual “behaviors” as incredible dubious. This would suggest that heterosexuals would never have homosexual kids because their would be no place to “learn” such behavior. Just as straight parents raise gay kids, gay parents raise straight kids. There is zero empirical evidence to suggest homosexuality is a “learned” behavior and anecdotal it makes no sense either.

At the end of the day we just have to disagree to disagree.
You missed what I was saying stlcatholic86, You ask a homosexual who was raised in a hetrosexual household, whether they ever contemplated or acted on hetrosexual desires before they found out they were homosexual, because Im sure you will find that the majority did and in the same way it will happen to those raised in a homosexual household, they will contemplate or act on homosexual desires before they will find out that they are hetrosexual.

Every child has a right to a mum and dad, so I will fight this to see that they have it, it’s such a shame when people become so heartless in regards to the importance of marriage, because marriage is there to give children the right to a mum and dad to the best of the parents ability, you change the definition of marriage, and it will no longer be something there to provide children with the right’s to a mum and a dad.

And as ricmat said, the whole idea of this is to achieve acceptance for a homosexual’s lifestyle, and regardless of what the law say’s I will never approve of such a lifestyle, the acts of homosexuality will always be disorderd, perverse and immoral, I will never treat homosexuality equal to hetrosexuality, because those acts are in no way equal.

Remember if they achieve equality between homosexuality and hetrosexuality, you do realise it will have to be taught to our children in sex education classes at school in detail, the same way that hetrosexuality is?

How on earth are they going to teach a miss use of the body with homosexuality to children?

We learn the difference between men and women in school, we know that certain parts are designed to be used a certain way, anything else is a miss use, you really want to encourage that and teach a miss use of the body as an acceptable use for our future generations?

stlcatholic86, Im also very surprised to see that you are ‘Catholic’ same as me and yet support same sex marriage, could you please ask your local priest about it or view the churches stand on same sex marriage.

Thank you for reading
Josh
 
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You’re going to have a heck of a time trying to convince me that either my mother or my father could be easily and arbitrarily replaced. Call it “love” all you want, but if you subject children to a needlessly stressful environment, that’s not love. Every child deserves a mom and a dad, which is why we need to work to preserve biological marriage, between a man and a woman. So called “civil unions” between homosexuals undermine this ideal and are detrimental to society.
Maybe when laws require that parents don’t abandon their children to the state…or when parents don’t divorce and give up custody…and when…having the right of a mom and dad is wonderful concept…just have to make sure the people having the children agree…and they don’t obvoiusly…gay couples while not man and woman…do provide stable caring homes to the cast offs of heterosexual parents.

I would think that there are enough "Christian’ homes claiming the rights of the children to have a mom and dad…if they really believed it…open their homes then…but no…“mom’s” and “dad’s” don’t want the children they have…that’s why they’re up for adoption…good decent loving people who happen to be gay or lesbian DO want the cast off children…becasue they know what it is to be “cast aside” for the most part…don’t see a lot of Christians stepping up to the plate to adopt the cast offs…🤷
 
I find the state has no legitimate interest in denying marriage to same-sex couples, even with the name. It simply goes against a plain text reading of the 14th Amendment and denies the SCOTUS decision of Loving v. Virginia that “marriage is fundamental right.” The issue here isn’t religious “marriage,” but civil “marriage.” Marriage has been an evolving institution since the beginning of time. With that said it is likely that SCOTUS will decide Prop 8 on narrow grounds, making gay marriage legal in California and strike down DOMA allowing the federal government to recognize same sex marriage in states where it is legal.

**Separately, I think the notion that Josh brings up that kids will learn homosexual “behaviors” as incredible dubious. This would suggest that heterosexuals would never have homosexual kids because their would be no place to “learn” such behavior. Just as straight parents raise gay kids, gay parents raise straight kids. There is zero empirical evidence to suggest homosexuality is a “learned” behavior and anecdotal it makes no sense either.

At the end of the day we just have to disagree to dis**agree.
Your poiints are true…I know many gay people…they all came from heterosexual parents and families…I’ve attended the weddings of the children of gay couples…straight weddings of the children of gay couples…I know several gay couples who enjoy spending time with their grandchildren.
 
Your poiints are true…I know many gay people…they all came from heterosexual parents and families…I’ve attended the weddings of the children of gay couples…straight weddings of the children of gay couples…I know several gay couples who enjoy spending time with their grandchildren.
I not once said that homosexuality was a learned behaviour, I said if you ask a homosexual who was raised in a hetrosexual household, whether they ever contemplated or acted on hetrosexual desires before they found out they were homosexual, you will most likely find that the majority did and in the same way it will happen to those raised in a homosexual household, they will contemplate or act on homosexual desires before they will find out that they are hetrosexual.

Also there are many hetrosexual marriage’s who adopt these children, it’s only right to discriminate between a hetrosexual union and a homosexual union when adopting children out, if someone tried to tell me that I would be no better off with a mum and dad than with two mum’s or two dad’s, I would be pissed off at them for their Ignorance, because of course a mum and a dad, is the ultimate environment to raise children.

Not saying it can’t be done any other way, but to do it any other way is to do it crippled, and to intentionaly cripple a child is wrong, it should only be done if absolutly nessecary.

Thank you for reading
Josh
 
I find the state has no legitimate interest in denying marriage to same-sex couples, even with the name. It simply goes against a plain text reading of the 14th Amendment and denies the SCOTUS decision of Loving v. Virginia that “marriage is fundamental right.”.
First, Nope. Loving v. Viriginia referred to heterosexual marriage as a fundamental right. A redefinition of marriage, or an expansion of the term would have been written explicitly into the ruling if that were the intent. That’s the way the SC actually works. 😉

Second, your Church has spoken about same-sex “marriage” and same-sex unions, both, regarding how the faithful Catholic is to regard either. The Bishops have spoken, as has the Vatican. Both are in opposition to natural law, which Catholics are bound to uphold, regardless of what the Supreme Court erroneously says. Catholics are obligated to oppose SS faux “marriage” and SS civil unions.

The SC also approved of abortion on demand. They were wrong about that, too, and even its most liberal current member has recently admitted what a mistake the Roe ruling was.

We are bound to a higher law than what the SC offers us when a higher law compels us.
 
You missed what I was saying stlcatholic86, You ask a homosexual who was raised in a hetrosexual household, whether they ever contemplated or acted on hetrosexual desires before they found out they were homosexual, because Im sure you will find that the majority did and in the same way it will happen to those raised in a homosexual household, they will contemplate or act on homosexual desires before they will find out that they are hetrosexual.
I clearly understand your point. What you are suggesting is that children’s first sexual desires or actions will reflect their parents. That is synonymous with “learned” behavior mentality. The concept is simple if I see my parents do it I will want to do it. There is no evidence this is case, and plenty of research not just in gender studies that reflect quite the opposite (ie. think about the rebellious teenager). I do know gay people that fit your description, but contrary to your conclusion the reason they tried to be heterosexual wasn’t because their parents were it was because the felt they would be judged (by society) if they acted on their homosexual desires.
Every child has a right to a mum and dad, so I will fight this to see that they have it, it’s such a shame when people become so heartless in regards to the importance of marriage, because marriage is there to give children the right to a mum and dad to the best of the parents ability, you change the definition of marriage, and it will no longer be something there to provide children with the right’s to a mum and a dad.
It stems to reason that truly the greatest redefinition of marriage has been the freedom of divorce. Yet I don’t see much movement from the church or its’ members in banning divorce. Don’t misunderstand me hear I defiantly understand the positions of the church regarding divorce; however, unlike gay marriage that doesn’t seem to get much traction politically from the church or nearly as much condemnation. Second, even if I grant you that children have a right to a mom and a dad and it would be preferable, the reality is a lot of kids don’t have that. Some kids only have one primary parent (either due to divorce or death). Are we too suggest that those people aren’t good parents and those kids don’t have good upbringings? What about kids with no parents? Is a kid being raised in the foster care system or group homes preferable to being raised in an a two parent home regardless if the parents are of the same-sex?
Remember if they achieve equality between homosexuality and hetrosexuality, you do realise it will have to be taught to our children in sex education classes at school in detail, the same way that hetrosexuality is?
I fail to see a problem with this. I think far too often our society has a puritanical view on sex. I actually have to commend my catholic school education on this, because they were light years ahead of the public schools in my area on this subject matter. No we didn’t learn about homosexual sex, but we did learn about procreation and anatomy far earlier than my public school friends. I don’t want to dove tail into an entirely different area of debate regarding Catholic doctrine, but I think we should teach kids about both heterosexual and homosexual sex. Without question there are homosexual students in these classes and they miss out on very important information. Among both sexual orientations less information leads to riskier sexual behaviors and disease.
stlcatholic86, Im also very surprised to see that you are ‘Catholic’ same as me and yet support same sex marriage, could you please ask your local priest about it or view the churches stand on same sex marriage.
Don’t be surprised our faith is a large umbrella with many varied and valuable opinions such as yours. We are all brothers and sisters in Christ. I do understand the Catholic position on same-sex marriage, but I do not agree with it, as many Catholics don’t, including members of the clergy. It is also important that you understand what I most disagree with is Catholic obstruction of civil marriage not the sacrament of marriage.
 
First, Nope. Loving v. Viriginia referred to heterosexual marriage as a fundamental right. A redefinition of marriage, or an expansion of the term would have been written explicitly into the ruling if that were the intent. That’s the way the SC actually works. 😉

Second, your Church has spoken about same-sex “marriage” and same-sex unions, both, regarding how the faithful Catholic is to regard either. The Bishops have spoken, as has the Vatican. Both are in opposition to natural law, which Catholics are bound to uphold, regardless of what the Supreme Court erroneously says. Catholics are obligated to oppose SS faux “marriage” and SS civil unions.

The SC also approved of abortion on demand. They were wrong about that, too, and even its most liberal current member has recently admitted what a mistake the Roe ruling was.

We are bound to a higher law than what the SC offers us when a higher law compels us.
I understand the court in Loving v. Virginia didn’t open the door for same-sex marriage. However, it is implicit that denying marriage to homosexual couples is denying them a “fundamental right.” However, court opinions don’t have to be as explicit as you lead on. Instead, cases are often built upon precedence in which jurists recall previous decisions in order to make case law today. Thus the court could cite Loving v. Virginia granting the “fundamental right to marry” in granting the right to homosexual couples.

Yes the church has spoken on many issues and not all have agreed. The church as always been an evolving institution through its history.

You are correct that Ruth Bader Ginsbug has stated she believes Roe v. Wade was improperly decided, but not because she disagreed with the decision. Instead, she felt the Roe v. Wade was too rash a decision that ultimately allowed pro-life advocates to continue to assail it, which she ultimately thinks a future court will overturn. Her logic is basically that Roe v. Wade was too radically for the era and should have been decided when the country was more ready for it.
 
I find the state has no legitimate interest in denying marriage to same-sex couples, even with the name.
Actually, the “state” once thought it did have an interest in marriage; specifically, the procreation and rearing of future citizens in a wholesome and moral environment.

For a Catholic, (and for many others) it is impossible to reconcile the teachings of the Church with the notion that some kind of artificial procreation between people whose sexual proclivities are profoundly disordered results in children being raised in a wholesome and moral environment.

Granted, the “state” has allowed, even encouraged, the debasement of marriage in recent decades. So has the popular culture, and with very unfortunate results for children. But that does not mean further debasement is somehow the cure for it.
 
Loving your neighbor does not mean agreeing with them and confirming them in their sins because it’s ‘nice’. Loving someone means wanting what’s best for them. What’s best for everyone is to stay away from sin so they have eternal life with God. Homosexual marriage is a sin. Confirming people in that sin is not love. It’s compliance.
 
I clearly understand your point. What you are suggesting is that children’s first sexual desires or actions will reflect their parents. That is synonymous with “learned” behavior mentality. The concept is simple if I see my parents do it I will want to do it. There is no evidence this is case, and plenty of research not just in gender studies that reflect quite the opposite (ie. think about the rebellious teenager). I do know gay people that fit your description, but contrary to your conclusion the reason they tried to be heterosexual wasn’t because their parents were it was because the felt they would be judged (by society) if they acted on their homosexual desires.
What about those who will say to themselves “how do I know if Im homosexual/bisexual unless I try homosexuality?” I think that is a very bad attitude for society to have, to think that there is another option when it comes to acting sexually.

Im sorry but acting on homosexual desires is not the answer for homosexuals, people seem to think that it is, but I guarentee you that it isn’t, in previous generations in an effort to reject homosexuality people have rejected homosexuals, and now in this generation in an effort to embrace homosexuals, people are embracing homosexuality, you are catholic, you may not agree with the church’s view, but you do believe in God, how can any supreme being support the miss use of their beloved creation through the acts of homosexuality?
It stems to reason that truly the greatest redefinition of marriage has been the freedom of divorce. Yet I don’t see much movement from the church or its’ members in banning divorce. Don’t misunderstand me hear I defiantly understand the positions of the church regarding divorce; however, unlike gay marriage that doesn’t seem to get much traction politically from the church or nearly as much condemnation. Second, even if I grant you that children have a right to a mom and a dad and it would be preferable, the reality is a lot of kids don’t have that. Some kids only have one primary parent (either due to divorce or death). Are we too suggest that those people aren’t good parents and those kids don’t have good upbringings? What about kids with no parents? Is a kid being raised in the foster care system or group homes preferable to being raised in an a two parent home regardless if the parents are of the same-sex?
Like I said, they are not assumed to be bad parents because of death or divorce, because they tried to provide their child with a mum and a dad to the best of their ability, unfortunatly not every child has a mum and a dad, and without a mum and dad a child is being raised crippled, doesn’t mean it can’t be done and sometimes there is no other way, but to intentionaly cripple a child when there is another way is just wrong and homosexual couples when they recieve marriage will want to raise children to have the idea of family, and to go down that path to intentionaly cripple a child is wrong, especially when they use surrogacy to have children.
I fail to see a problem with this. I think far too often our society has a puritanical view on sex. I actually have to commend my catholic school education on this, because they were light years ahead of the public schools in my area on this subject matter. No we didn’t learn about homosexual sex, but we did learn about procreation and anatomy far earlier than my public school friends. I don’t want to dove tail into an entirely different area of debate regarding Catholic doctrine, but I think we should teach kids about both heterosexual and homosexual sex. Without question there are homosexual students in these classes and they miss out on very important information. Among both sexual orientations less information leads to riskier sexual behaviors and disease.
I didn’t want to go into detail, but the idea of teaching homosexual sex to kids is just madness! and I can assure you, I will try my best to protect kids from that kind of insanity.

I brought it up to show people just how far from morality and common sense we are heading with this.

You want to teach kids how to have anal intercourse with one another in school?

How is there anything natural about anal intercourse?

It is not a puritanical view it all, the acts of homosexuality is clearly a miss use of the body, I don’t know how you can view it any other way.
Don’t be surprised our faith is a large umbrella with many varied and valuable opinions such as yours. We are all brothers and sisters in Christ. I do understand the Catholic position on same-sex marriage, but I do not agree with it, as many Catholics don’t, including members of the clergy. It is also important that you understand what I most disagree with is Catholic obstruction of civil marriage not the sacrament of marriage.
The fact is that the sexual nature of a homosexual union and a hetrosexual union, makes the two unions so vastly different from one another, so of course people are going to be outraged when they try to equate the two unions under the same word as marriage, if they just used a different word for a homosexual union, they wouldn’t be getting anywhere near the amount of opposition that they are.

I may believe that it is sinful to miss use the body like that in the acts of homosexuality, but I wont force them not to do it with regards to the law, however I will be upset when they try to equate homosexuality with hetrosexuality with the word marriage in regards to the law, because the sexual behaviour is just so vastly different from one another that it is illogical and just stupidity to try and equate them under the same word as marriage.

Please continue to next post -
 
Note: Continued from the above post - please read above post first.

You Say: we shouldn’t force our beliefs of marriage onto others by saying that they can’t be recognised as a homosexual marriage.

We Say: you shouldn’t be forcing your beliefs of marriage onto us by saying that they should be recognised as a homosexual marriage.

This is the dilemma we face, because from both perspectives they are seen as correct, but a homosexual union is vastly different from a hetrosexual one because of the sexual nature wouldn’t you agree?

So why would we give the same name to two vastly different unions?

I try to see it from your perspective, but you must also try and see it from ours, why there are people getting so passionate about this, is because it’s not about homosexuals being denyed that union by law, because I don’t agree with it, but I wont force them not to do it, but when they try to be recognised as a marriage, they try to change everyone else’s definition of marriage through the force of the law, that’s why people see it as an attack on them when people are for same sex marriage, because it is.

So it’s not discrimination to be against same sex marriage, it’s really discrimination to be for same sex marriage.

The sexual nature of the two unions makes them so vastly different that a just discrimination must be made in regards to the use of the word marriage.

Thank you for reading
Josh
 
Discrimination is the unjust or prejudicial treatment of different categories of people or things.

Now given the sexual nature of a homosexual union compared to a hetrosexual one, to try and argue for equality when it comes to marriage, would be an unjust or prejudicial treatment of different categories of people or things, unjust and prejudicial treatment being to equate two things that are obviously unequal.

Therefore, homosexual unions being recognised as marriage is a discrimination against hetrosexual marriage.

So by this logic, to legalise homosexual marriage, would be to legalise and enforce discrimination, now Im sure there are laws against that arn’t there?

Thank you for reading
Josh
 
Josh i only caught a snipet of your arguement which was the last, that stated " so by this logic " ; there is the flaw to your entire arguement right there. It is not a logical debate to begin with.

How does one argue on an emotional stance one has " its just love, why can’t we all just get along " lets sit around the camp fire an sing now. And if you disagree with me an who i want to love then you are not only wrong, but you are bad as well.

It is pandoras box though, and once it is completely opened then what ? Where is the line at ? Because the same excuses that the homosexual community is using for wanting to legalize same sex marrage can be used for other things as well that i think have already been mentioned in this thread.

Unfortunately the issue is one the Catholic Church has to tread carefully on, if one speaks too blatantly then one runs the risk of turning away a lot of people to the Love of Christ.

Hopefully Pope Francis will address America soon on this issue, though I am sure the papacy has already addressed this issue to some degree in the past already.
 
Josh i only caught a snipet of your arguement which was the last, that stated " so by this logic " ; there is the flaw to your entire arguement right there. It is not a logical debate to begin with.
Ha ha ha, yea the entire argument for same sex marriage is illogical, I know that the idea of same sex marriage and the acts of homosexuality being a societal norm is just wrong, however there is no point to being right if everyone else thinks you are wrong, so as I learnt from Dr Phil’s book, don’t get caught up in whether the situation is ‘fair’ or ‘unfair’ get over it and figure out how to win, so using this I want to try and win this argument to oppose legalising same sex marriage so that it will stop homosexuality from being taught as a societal norm.

So Im just going to continuously try and think of different ways of opposing same sex marriage, until I find a way that hopefully works for everyone, because I know what they are trying to do with same sex marriage, they are trying to make the acts of homosexuality a societal norm and that is just immoral and wrong and I plan to try whatever I can to stop that from happening, by hopefully reasoning with people.

In an effort to embrace homosexuals, people are embracing homosexuality, I think it’s good to embrace homosexuals, but Im very much against embracing homosexuality.

Thank you for reading
Josh
 
I think it’s good to embrace homosexuals, but Im very much against embracing homosexuality.
exactly, and this off hand can sound like being a double standard , but it really isn’t we as Christians/ Catholics can not reduce homosexuals to living an immoral life, or reduce them in any way generally speaking, i for one am not going to embrace homosexuals in regards to them being able to adopt or marry. But that does not mean I am going to treat them like less of a person that God created.

I don’t claim to understand any of this by any means nor do i have any best possible scenerios to offer anyone, other than to honestly pray about the situation at hand and for our brothers and sisters in Christ who are living in confusion.
 
So if I read that correctly, certain **Catholic ** Church leaders support at least civil unions? Why is this allowed?
Why don’t you ask (retired) Cardinal McCarrick:

McCarrick said he has “no problem” with civil unions for gay couples that confer the same rights as marriage under a different name.

“I certainly would prefer that” to “what I could call a marriage, in quotes,” McCarrick said.

The cardinal said he considers divorce and children born out of wedlock a greater social problem than same-sex marriage.

Source: Bloomberg

No, I don’t agree with His Eminence.

No, the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith does not agree with His Eminence

No, Pope (Emeritus) Benedict XVI does not agree with His Eminence

And I would highly doubt that the Holy Father would agree with His Eminence either.

But the good Cardinal has his opinion.
 
Why don’t you ask (retired) Cardinal McCarrick:

McCarrick said he has “no problem” with civil unions for gay couples that confer the same rights as marriage under a different name.

“I certainly would prefer that” to “what I could call a marriage, in quotes,” McCarrick said.

The cardinal said he considers divorce and children born out of wedlock a greater social problem than same-sex marriage.

Source: Bloomberg

No, I don’t agree with His Eminence.

No, the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith does not agree with His Eminence

No, Pope (Emeritus) Benedict XVI does not agree with His Eminence

And I would highly doubt that the Holy Father would agree with His Eminence either.

But the good Cardinal has his opinion.
Which contradicts Church teaching. Are you okay with that?
 
Which contradicts Church teaching. Are you okay with that?
Read much?

Just in case you missed it…*No, I don’t agree with His Eminence.

*Rather than repeating the entire post, you may wish to try reading the whole thing again.
 
Marriage is one and only one thing: the union of a man and a woman and any children who may come from their union.

Marriage has been severely attacked by the courts, first by making contraception legal. Contraception having weakened marriage, the courts made divorce easy, thereby undermining the security of women and children. With the devastation of broken families and so-called women’s “liberation” [which was really the permission of men to exploit women and kill children through chemical abortifacients and surgical abortion], men were no longer able, and often no longer desired to be the protectors of their families, thereby losing their sacred identities to a severe extent. Women as well have lost our identities as nurturers and life-bearers.

It used to be said that something was “as American as motherhood.” Now we have allowed the courts and our media to make motherhood almost a criminal offense.

No wonder boys and girls have difficulty appreciating and embracing their God-given gift of sexuality. By appreciating sexuality, I mean sexuality in the fullest sense of the whole person; the goodness of being a male and appreciating and embracing one’s maleness, with all the masculine gifts and attributes; and the goodness of being a female and embracing one’s femininity, with all the feminine gifts and attributes; and appreciating the complementarity of male and female, and respecting each other’s fertility.

We have made a mess of marriage, but that is no reason to capitulate. That is all the more reason to stand up and fight for marriage. For the sake of our children and for our civilization, what is left of it, we must restore marriage, and the sooner, the better.
If we truly love each other and our children, we will re-stigmatize contraception and abhor abortion. We will make it far harder to dissolve marriage and work far harder to help couples to reconcile and go the distance.

God bless our bishops and archbishops and popes who speak up for marriage and thereby stand in solidarity with the weakest among us; with children, who cannot speak for themselves or defend their rights.
 
Read much?

Just in case you missed it…*No, I don’t agree with His Eminence.

*Rather than repeating the entire post, you may wish to try reading the whole thing again.
Rather than a sarcastic response to my post, please focus on the part I bolded…which is that you mentioned he has an opinion. You mentioned it last as if to say that he is allowed such an opinion despite being against Church teaching. I would think the Church would not approve (laity as well as leadership) of Church leadership publically vocalizing an opinion that goes against Church teaching.
 
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