Serious doubts about Church teaching on homosexuality

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Actuality it is up to you and you just gave life to it by your own verbal testimony. You just told yourself via forum that “I am a man who is attracted to other men”. An object in motion stays in motion, until you vehemently oppose it and stop it beyond any life of reality beyond a light flash of thought.
For over a decade, I told myself I was not attracted to other men. I lied to myself. At the end of that period, I was in serious danger of destroying my life through destructive decisions, and I was doing some very unhealthy things. When I accepted my attraction, I found myself living a much more healthy and ordered life, and I found myself capable of chastity in a new way.

Are you saying that I should go back to the dangerous attitude? :confused:
 
Actuality it is up to you and you just gave life to it by your own verbal testimony. You just told yourself via forum that “I am a man who is attracted to other men”. An object in motion stays in motion, until you vehemently oppose it and stop it beyond any life of reality beyond a light flash of thought.
You objectified SSA but you didn’t have to because we know inclinations are real. Keep that thought in mind along with your analogy. We know from psychodynamic theory, that if we vehemently oppose (deny) it. we may succeed in banishing the inclination from consciousness , however doing so does not stop the motion of the object which is now in the unconscious mind where it is liable to play havoc. Now since the object is no longer consciousness we no longer have any conscious influence over it and the havoc it is like to be causing. In effect, denial does not stop an object in motion. Now one can deny the validity of psychodynamic theory but that denial is more likely than not to be faith based, rather than from years of knowledge, study, experience and working in depth with patients suffering from mental health illnesses.
This is actually supported by physics. Take for example magnets. The properties of a magnet determine the object of its natural attraction. However if forces in the environment around the magnet are significant (like great heat), the electrical force of the magnet is reduced or lost making it vulnerable to the power of a force it would naturally repel.
The electrical force is seeming lost but it is not, instead it is given up as heat.
 
Okay, so here it is. I’m twenty-three and grew up in your perfect traditional Catholic family. My parents were loving and religious and great. I believed wholeheartedly what I was taught and adored it. And yet, before I even know what homosexuality was (because, like as good like Catholic girls, I was very sheltered), I began to feel romantic urges for girls. This began to creep on me as I grew older and by the time I was seventeen I knew, with some horror, that I had gay feelings.

I can already anticipate your reactions. No, there were no examples of homosexuality in my life. I was not sexually abused. I have healthy, normal relationships with men. You can’t pin this on anything environmental. If I had any choice at all I would have wanted to be straight. You cannot imagine the pain and suffering this has caused me, as a Catholic who wants desperately to be the daughter her parents wanted.

I spent most of my teenagerhood terrified of having close relationships with other women and suffered socially because of it. I tried desperately, and totally alone, to “pray away the gay”. My parents, who are wonderful in every way, didn’t even consider that this could happen to their children. I had no support. I was scared shitless, thanks to some very graphic church sermons and comments dropped by my family, that if anyone found out, I’d be kicked out of the house. Even if I kept my family’s love, there was no getting around that this would change things forever.

Eventually I realized, quite frankly, that my efforts were ********. It was clear that I am who I am. I cannot control my sexuality any more than I can control my love of hip hop, or the color of my eyes. We are born with some preferences, for different flavors of ice cream, and for some genders. I am not a pervert. My feelings for women are as pure and lofty as any my heterosexual friends have.

The more I prayed and tried, desperately, to understand why I am the way I am, the angrier I became. I am angry at my parents and my Church, who created a world of fear. I have spent so much of my life terrified of judgment. I have had no role models, no community, and no compassion.

The Church makes its views on homosexuality very clear. And for all you may claim to love the sinner, hate the sin, you all cannot deny that a Catholic congregation is an unfriendly place for even a celibate homosexual. You cannot deny that being open about who I am would be inviting gossip and cruelty, no matter how closely my life follows Church teachings. It would be like living under a microscope.

I’ve read this community’s responses to questions about homosexuality. I’ve read how, at the first mention of a gay man, you pry into his sexual history.

Imagine telling me at sixteen, a young girl who loved romcoms and longed for romance, that she could never have an intimate relationship. That celibacy for her was not a calling, or a vocation, but a sentence. Heterosexuals choose celibacy and it is a beautiful thing, but homosexuals have no choice. They are slated into one path and let’s be honest here. It sucks.

So yes, I’m angry. It makes it hard to go to Church, to have meaningful relationships with my family. My prayer life is strong and I try to follow God’s teachings, but I feel as if I’m hitting brick walls. I am tired of being told that my soul and body are an abomination and that I am incapable of giving romantic love.

The Catholic Church is scary for me. I wish it wasn’t.

I don’t know quite what I’m saying here, only that the more time I spend with Catholics, the more cruel comments about homosexuality slip, and the more I feel like this isn’t the place for me. This forum feels unsafe for me.

I don’t know what to do.
Naomi,Return to the sacraments by going to mass often. Go to confession as often as you can too and receive holy communion in a state of grace. When the near occasion of sin occurs, do what I do…I lay my head (in my imagination of course) on the shoulder of the Virgin Mary" say a Hail Mary or a few Hail Mary’s and I tell you this freaks out those demons prowling around looking to devour souls. But also this…’ focus intently on “The Holy Eucharist” !! The next time you hear a cruel slip, do a “slip” of your own and say back at them " I’m carrying the same cross with Jesus"…that should put them in their place, Be praying for you.God bless.
 
There are most certainly people who did change from a homosexual lifestyle to that of a normal heterosexual one? You didn’t even bother to offer her that.
Some have but the literature on conversion therapy is replete with risks and dangers. If one chooses the goal of change through therapy be sure to choose the therapist carefully.

There are plenty of people here giving advice. After 28 pages of advice I sure that the OP will have a lot to sort through. Perhaps what you say may very well be what she needs, but I do advice be extremely carefull with conversion therapy, too much is at risk not to be careful. The literature on conversion therapy is replete with risks and dangers. If one chooses the goal of change through therapy be sure to choose the therapist carefully.
 
It is the appearance of being of lost, the attraction simply changes state*. Sexual inclinations may appear to have changed through denial but similarly to the attraction of the electrons, it is the illusion of being lost when the inclination becomes unconscious.

* Law of Conservation of Mass
That really illustrates my point then. The properties that biologically make male and female are naturally complimentary and creative. The attraction of positive and negative are designed in nature. If two positives or two negatives are devoid of the natural repulsion that nature designed, they are experiencing the illusion of a lost natural attraction as per natures design. So the same sex inclination is merely the changed condition impacting on natural attraction making the pair vulnerable to other forces not of nature.
 
That really illustrates my point then. The properties that biologically make male and female are naturally complimentary and creative. The attraction of positive and negative are designed in nature. If two positives or two negatives are devoid of the natural repulsion that nature designed, they are experiencing the illusion of a lost natural attraction as per natures design. So the same sex inclination is merely the changed condition impacting on natural attraction making the pair vulnerable to other forces not of nature.
Are you really repulsed by people of the same sex? Do you think that’s a good thing?
 
Are you really repulsed by people of the same sex? Do you think that’s a good thing?
I’m using that word in a physics sense. To repel as in the natural effect of two positives and two negatives. Not as in emotional responses.
 
It’s true it is not a sin to be gay,but, whenever you make that statement you should remind them also to avoid the near occasion of sin for exposing yourself to the lifestyle by hanging with openly gay folks, watching videos,reading gay novels, looking at gay imagery etc…is in a sin itself.
So besides the fact that I consider most of your post harmful to gay people (though I’m sure you don’t have that intent), this has got to be the most dangerous advice I’ve ever heard, and arguing any of that is sinful has literally no church support.

You are suggesting that gay people cut off all their friends, deny themselves all of their interests in music/art/culture, etc.You are literally telling people to live as hermits in this world, isolated from anything they remotely enjoy, even if it has nothing to do with the evil of sexual activity. NO ONE should be advised to say goodbye to their gay friends just because they become Catholic. What a ridiculous presumption. Ugh.

Also, there is no such thing as a “homosexual lifestyle.” It is literally the most offensive phrase you can actually use to describe an actively gay person. I know some people don’t care about offending gay people as long as they get to use their own terminology, but hopefully you are not one of them.
 
Is “orientation” a well defined term or simply a euphemism meaning “your inclination is merely an inclination which you can control while my inclination is an orientation, which cannot be changed”? Are there other examples of orientations?

Ender
Another example is “heterosexuality”.
 
You are suggesting that gay people cut off all their friends, deny themselves all of their interests in music/art/culture, etc.
I interpreted DavidPaul somewhat differently, though I may be wrong. Since I think it’s obvious that TV shows, books, movies, and music can’t be “gay” – what would that even mean? :confused: – I figured he was just talking about the sexually explicit or tempting examples of media. These, of course, should be avoided regardless of their gayness or straightness or whatnot.
 
You are suggesting that gay people cut off all their friends, deny themselves all of their interests in music/art/culture, etc.You are literally telling people to live as hermits in this world, isolated from anything they remotely enjoy, even if it has nothing to do with the evil of sexual activity. NO ONE should be advised to say goodbye to their gay friends just because they become Catholic. What a ridiculous presumption. Ugh.
I did not get that, though the situation you describe is surely dire and uncalled for. The Church does however tell us to avoid the near occasion of sin. One can do all the things you mention and still work to avoid placing themselves in a position of near sin. I would say in fact, for one person with homosexual temptation to keep gay friends and practice chastity is a wonderful witness, not to one’s faith, but also how life is about more than the sex one has. When some situation (or some person) becomes a near occasion of sin, only the individual can determine. Even then, that is but one door that should close, and by close I mean only the specific combination that brings about the great temptation should be avoided.

This is a heterosexual, homosexual, chaste, lust, greed, gluttony, and all-around human struggle we all face.
 
Originally Posted by Ender
Is “orientation” a well defined term or simply a euphemism meaning “your inclination is merely an inclination which you can control while my inclination is an orientation, which cannot be changed”? Are there other examples of orientations?
In orienteering terms ‘heterosexuality’ would represent true north though according to natural and moral law.

Without a compass or the sun people can’t walk a straight line it has been proven. We are sure we are walking straight but our personal inclinations lead us in all directions and even in circles. We need an objective reference point to guide us and not depend on our own inclinations to know truth.
 
In orienteering terms ‘heterosexuality’ would represent true north though according to natural and moral law.
False. Marriage between a husband and wife is true north. Heterosexuality is a modern social construct that has nothing to do with God’s plan for humankind.
 
Marriage isn’t an ‘orientation’.
Agreed. God didn’t create us with any sexual orientations. But he did create us with the capacity for language, and our language outlines certain sexual orientations. We cannot opt out of these, since we can’t opt out of language.

God did create marriage. This is not a merely human institution – that’s why it can be “true north”.
 
I interpreted DavidPaul somewhat differently, though I may be wrong. Since I think it’s obvious that TV shows, books, movies, and music can’t be “gay” – what would that even mean? :confused: – I figured he was just talking about the sexually explicit or tempting examples of media. These, of course, should be avoided regardless of their gayness or straightness or whatnot.
I can’t multiquote on my phone, so this is directed at both you and pnewton’s responses to me. The poster I was responding to specifically said not to hang out with openly gay people. Considering my close friend base until I converted was almost exclusively LGBT with a few very heterosexual allies, and that this is not an uncommon occurrence, what that means is to just cut off your entire friend base. I think that is an awful solution, and I am at least heartened that you guys agree with me on that point specifically.

As for art/music/media, the poster mentioned not watching gay videos, reading gay novels, etc. etc. Now if he is meaning porn or something, then I’ll take it back. I read it as “Watching Glee is a sin. Reading gay/lesbian manga is a sin. Participating in media that involves a gay character is a sin.” There are people who seriously believe this, or I would not have jumped as quickly to read it that way. But either way, this is obviously false. It is no more a sin to read a manga detailing two wonderful female characters who fall in love than to do the same with a manga detailing two heterosexuals. And it is no less a sin to read heterosexual smut literature than homosexual smut literature.
 
Agreed. God didn’t create us with any sexual orientations. But he did create us with the capacity for language, and our language outlines certain sexual orientations. We cannot opt out of these, since we can’t opt out of language.

God did create marriage. This is not a merely human institution – that’s why it can be “true north”.
That just sounds like gobbledy gook. God didn’t create us with any sexual orientations but created us with a capacity for language? We invented a word that describes a natural condition. God through nature made us to procreate by endowing us with fertility, a mechanism and equipment and a natural magnetism to encourage that process. He also choose to endow human beings with a higher nature so that through that natural relationship we can experience His love for us and His truth.

The attraction between a male and female represents the default according to the laws of nature and moral law as per Catholic teaching. It is true north.
 
That just sounds like gobbledy gook. God didn’t create us with any sexual orientations but created us with a capacity for language? We invented a word that describes a natural condition.
The attraction of men to women, and vice versa, is a natural condition. Yes. But that’s not what “heterosexuality” means.

www.firstthings.com/article/2014/03/against-heterosexuality
God through nature made us to procreate by endowing us with fertility, a mechanism and equipment and a natural magnetism to encourage that process. He also choose to endow human beings with a higher nature so that through that natural relationship we can experience His love for us and His truth.
All of this is a defense of marriage. Though if you’re terribly attached to the word “heterosexual”, more power to you. But know that this word did not exist in any language prior to around 1900, so it’s obviously not of theological importance. (It was the creation of scientists, not theologians.)
The attraction between a male and female represents the default according to the laws of nature and moral law as per Catholic teaching. It is true north.
The attraction is an event with good consequences (marriage) or bad consequences (fornication). Marriage is a good in itself.
 
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