Serious doubts about Church teaching on homosexuality

[Joie_de_Vivre]

It shouldn’t be too much longer before there are studies out on the percentage of children adopted by gay/lesbian parents who themselves become gay or lesbian. I’d be willing to make a sizable bet that that percentage will be significantly higher than average. It is likely that the strongest evidence against the argument that homosexuality is merely genetic will be provided by a society acting as if that assumption was true.

Ender

Define “significantly higher” and define “average”.

 

[Rau]

… Our inclinations can be controlled if we are sufficiently determined to control them.

Ender

I think most if not all would agree with that. But the discussion about changing orientation seems on occasion to believe a far different outcome is the goal!

I, as a heterosexual, experience an automatic, effortless attraction to women. No conscious effort is required. And I experience no emotional/physical attraction to men. Now, of course a homosexual can learn to turn away from the objects of same sex attraction. But I don’t believe there is any program of treatment that has a track record of helping homosexuals become heterosexual as I have described it.

 

[Rau]

… the reality is that lesbian sex is far more enjoyable than heterosexual intercourse for women…

How on earth has this been established?!

 

[Rau]

Quote:
Originally Posted by SMGS127
Actually bullying and hatred are on the rise in this country. Increased visibility also means increased backlash. This generation has had to deal with people suggesting gays were the cause of 9/11, that gays rape children and need to be kept away from them, that gays are the root of evil in this country.

So no, with more tolerance also comes more intolerance. They are not mutually exclusive.

I don’t believe this is true. it is not been my experience or that of anyone I know-including close family members who are homosexual.

I think what we see is an attempt to make the Church shut up about the how destructive homosexual behavior is by claiming their teachings are pushing kids into suicide and depression. As one who suffered for the first several years of my adult life as a raging alcoholic I can tell you first hand how depressing and suicidal one gets when engaging in a destructive behavior-but it was the behavior that caused my problem-not the reaction of others to it

SMGS is right. It is a polarising issue. Rejection and acceptance may both grow stronger together.

 

[SMGS127]

How on earth has this been established?!

I agree that it’s an odd statement, even though I’d also argue it’s true. I guess you could ask bisexuals?

But I think that due to women’s familiarity with their own bodies, lack of a hard ending to sex with women, smaller hands on average that are more dexterous, and much higher personal comfort levels with each other than with men, lesbian sex is more enjoyable for lesbians than straight sex for straight women. Now can I prove it? It’s not possible to. But it’s a personal belief of mine.

 

[Rau]

I’m wondering what sets homosexuality apart as such a special sin that those who engage in it are treated as victims, need special programs…

The issue is unrelated to whether or not the persons engage in “it” (sins).

Consider those who simply endure the inclination (no sin at all here). Perhaps they are rejected by family and friends. Perhaps friends are harder to come by. Perhaps some people make erroneous assumptions about them. Perhaps they feel embarrassed. Perhaps they feel desperately alone. Perhaps they long to love someone but fear doing so.

Do the statistics quoted earlier tell you anything? Is it so difficult to have empathy?

 

[frobert]

I don’t understand why you perceive that gay sex is much more addictive

All sex when pursued for solely pleasure can be addictive. Paradoxical though, when addicted the more you seek sex for pleasure the less pleasurable it becomes.

…when the reality is that lesbian sex is far more enjoyable than heterosexual intercourse for women while the spread between the enjoyability for gay sex is much smaller.

I think the enjoyability for depends on many factors, two important ones are intrinsic inclinations and the real love between the partners. I think, for the most part, St Paul gets it right in Corinthians 13:4-7. Interpretations may vary.

 

[Ender]

Sounds like you are anxiously awaiting the studies with glee.

Don’t project your emotions on to me. I made an observation and a prediction; that’s all. Deal with what I say, not with how you think I felt when I said it.

While waiting you can feast on how well of children adopted by gay/lesbian parents do.

I think I’ll wait a bit longer than 2-3 years to see what the impact of gay adoptions really is.

Ender

 

[Ender]

Define “significantly higher” and define “average”.

“Significantly higher” rates would be, say, five times the average rate. The “average” rate is not something I get to define; it is what it is, which I think is about 3% of the population.

Ender

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

How on earth has this been established?!

It’s a matter of biology and knowledge of biology by the partners. Most men for example are unaware of the importance of stimulating the clitoris in getting women to orgasm. Also men have no real lasting power.

I agree that it’s an odd statement, even though I’d also argue it’s true. I guess you could ask bisexuals?

But I think that due to women’s familiarity with their own bodies, lack of a hard ending to sex with women, smaller hands on average that are more dexterous, and much higher personal comfort levels with each other than with men, lesbian sex is more enjoyable for lesbians than straight sex for straight women. Now can I prove it? It’s not possible to. But it’s a personal belief of mine.

Indeed.

 

[Ender]

But the discussion about changing orientation seems on occasion to believe a far different outcome is the goal!

Is “orientation” a well defined term or simply a euphemism meaning “your inclination is merely an inclination which you can control while my inclination is an orientation, which cannot be changed”? Are there other examples of orientations?

Ender

 

[estesbob]

The issue is unrelated to whether or not the persons engage in “it” (sins).

Consider those who simply endure the inclination (no sin at all here). Perhaps they are rejected by family and friends. Perhaps friends are harder to come by. Perhaps some people make erroneous assumptions about them. Perhaps they feel embarrassed. Perhaps they feel desperately alone. Perhaps they long to love someone but fear doing so.

Do the statistics quoted earlier tell you anything? Is it so difficult to have empathy?

I have empathy for all who are tempted and all who sin.Mainly because I am afflicted with both.If not for the Grace one receives from regular reception of the Sacraments I would be lost.

 

[estesbob]

I agree that it’s an odd statement, even though I’d also argue it’s true. I guess you could ask bisexuals?

But I think that due to women’s familiarity with their own bodies, lack of a hard ending to sex with women, smaller hands on average that are more dexterous, and much higher personal comfort levels with each other than with men, lesbian sex is more enjoyable for lesbians than straight sex for straight women. Now can I prove it? It’s not possible to. But it’s a personal belief of mine.

Why would it matter? If it is more enjoyable does that lessen the sin?

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

Why would it matter? If it is more enjoyable does that lessen the sin?

I was merely contesting that statement by PS that “After all, the sex habits of gay men are much more dangerous and addictive than the sex habits of lesbians” given that there was a larger delta between the enjoyability of gay sex for women and straight sex for them mutatis mutandis men.

 

[frobert]

Don’t project your emotions on to me. I made an observation and a prediction; that’s all. Deal with what I say, not with how you think I felt when I said it.
I think I’ll wait a bit longer than 2-3 years to see what the impact of gay adoptions really is.

Ender

My comment, also, was an observation (sounds like) not a projection of my feelings.

observe - verb
: to watch and sometimes also listen to (someone or something) carefully
: to see and notice (someone or something)
: to make a comment about something you notice
Source: Merriam-Webster

I wasn’t aware that observations are not allowed.

definition of projection

Note: bold emphasis added

 

[estesbob]

Is “orientation” a well defined term or simply a euphemism meaning “your inclination is merely an inclination which you can control while my inclination is an orientation, which cannot be changed”? Are there other examples of orientations?

Ender

It’s a euphemism for temptation .

 

[SMGS127]

Why would it matter? If it is more enjoyable does that lessen the sin?

No…?

I was just explaining to Rau why Joie said what she said. Don’t be so on edge.

 

[SMGS127]

Is “orientation” a well defined term or simply a euphemism meaning “your inclination is merely an inclination which you can control while my inclination is an orientation, which cannot be changed”? Are there other examples of orientations?

Ender

Sexual orientation means one’s biological, immutable, and gendered attractions. It is not synonymous with temptation at all. If one merely is attracted to someone, they do not sin and it is not a temptation, but it still constitutes their sexual orientation. If one is dwelling on their attraction for someone and lusting after them, that is a sinful expression of their sexual orientation (but still not temptation). If someone intentionally puts themselves alone in a room with someone they are lusting after and the other person assents to sex, then one commits an even graver sin of sexual expression (and puts themselves into temptation).

But sexual orientation itself lends no moral discussion. Who you are attracted to has no relevance on your state of sin or your level of temptation/risk of temptation. If you use your orientation in a moral manner, it is not necessarily the horrible life of deserted loneliness that conservatives make it out to be. Just don’t lust or have sex.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

Talk about the comparative pleasure involved in lesbian sex versus straight sex made me immediately think about a song by Rufus Wainwright:

Cigarettes and chocolate milk
These are just a couple of my cravings
Everything it seems I like’s a little bit stronger
A little bit thicker, a little bit harmful for me

If I should buy jellybeans
Have to eat them all in just one sitting
Everything it seems I like’s a little bit sweeter
A little bit fatter, a little bit harmful for me

And then there’s those other things
Which for several reasons we won’t mention
Everything about 'em is a little bit stranger, a little bit harder
A little bit deadly

It isn’t very smart
Tends to make one part
So brokenhearted

I think the real point here isn’t about comparative pleasure. It’s about “the thing that gives me the most pleasure in the world”. For each of us, it’s hard to imagine other people not liking it the way we do, if they really experienced the same thing we’re experiencing. In my case, I find it utterly impossible to imagine that straight men wouldn’t go all agog about the beauty and awesomeness of the male body, if they only let go of their uptightness about being perceived as gay.

But that judgment probably says more about me than it does about straight men. It means that – for me – just about the most amazing thing in the world is to somehow contemplate the beauty of other men. For other people, the most amazing thing in the world might be food, or gossip, or Van Halen music. Whatever that thing is, there lies within it a seed planted by God. People astonished by food might have a gifting for hospitality; people preoccupied with gossip might have a gifting for insight into people’s lives; and so on. The gifting also conceals a seed planted by the devil, which can result in a person’s downfall – if a person’s particular pleasure is chosen in preference to God’s goodness.

In my experience, my appreciation of the male form goes alongside two other characteristics that are clearly in God’s plan for me: a deep longing for friendship with other men and a passion for beauty. Despite that, I am strongly tempted to cast aside those two charisms, and pursue singlemindedly the realization of my desire for male beauty. I need to resist this temptation – indeed, men who have “gone there” have warned me of as much (people like Plato and Shakespeare and Wilde and Auden).

I cannot speak to the lesbian experience. But I think that, whenever one finds that some experience “excels all others”, this is a reason to immediately ask whether that experience brings one closer to God. If it does, then seek to discern the nature of the experience more precisely. If it doesn’t, diligently attempt to free yourself from the experience. But don’t stop there: find the gifting beneath your desire for this thing. Find the charism lurking behind it, and ask the Lord to help you to carry you off on the wings of this charism into His arms.

He is a lover of incomparable sensitivity, a lover finer in appearance than any man, a lover more beguiling and dextrous than any woman. He may not make us comfortable, but He will make us new. And His ecstasies are beyond compare.

 

[frobert]

Sexual orientation means one’s biological, immutable, and gendered attractions. It is not synonymous with temptation at all. If one merely is attracted to someone, they do not sin and it is not a temptation, but it still constitutes their sexual orientation. If one is dwelling on their attraction for someone and lusting after them, that is a sinful expression of their sexual orientation (but still not temptation). If someone intentionally puts themselves alone in a room with someone they are lusting after and the other person assents to sex, then one commits an even graver sin of sexual expression (and puts themselves into temptation).

But sexual orientation itself lends no moral discussion. Who you are attracted to has no relevance on your state of sin or your level of temptation/risk of temptation. If you use your orientation in a moral manner, it is not necessarily the horrible life of deserted loneliness that conservatives make it out to be. Just don’t lust or have sex.

Can’t add much to such an excellent post, but for anyone looking for a definitions the following are good ones.

Definition of Terms and Concepts Related to Sex, Gender, and Sexual Orientation: which can be found on many college and university websites

Definition of Terms: Sex, Gender, Gender Identity, Sexual Orientation from the American Psychological Association.