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Joie_de_Vivre
Guest
She doesn’t deliberately do it, she simply doesn’t relate as well to heterosexuals as while lesbians are clearly women they still have a different perspective from heterosexual women.
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Abu
Guest
The genetic, moral, social and psychological factors are considered here, and once again the stellar contribution of NARTH is confirmed. The continued discredited attempts to demonize NARTH and all those associated with such real Catholic understanding and assistance reveal the delusions which some try to cultivate.
**LIVING TRADITION, JANUARY 2013 No. 162, pages 6, 7
Why Are Homosexual Acts Wrong? (PDF) Fr Brian W. Harrison
Extracts:
“…scientific research does not support the hypothesis that a homosexual orientation is genetically predetermined, or “created by God”. On the contrary, studies of the incidence of homosexuality among adult identical twins have thoroughly discredited this hypothesis.18 According to a growing consensus among serious investigators, inherited biological factors may indeed play some role in inclining certain individuals toward homosexual attraction and activity — as such factors undoubtedly do in regard to many other psychological and behavioral tendencies. But they are not in themselves the dominant cause, and much less an irresistible, determining cause, of the homosexual condition. Rather, the evidence shows that a variety of social and psychological causes originating during childhood development play a more decisive role in leading to this condition. Abundant studies of male homosexuals, for instance, reveal that in a very large proportion of the case histories of such men, their family environment during early childhood was one in which the boy’s relationship with his father was defective or non-existent, while his mother was very close to him, with a strongly protective pattern of behavior."
Notes:
18 These studies have shown that only around half of such persons, when homosexual in orientation, have twin siblings who are also homosexual. Since identical twins always have identical genetic codes, there would necessarily be a 100% identity of sexual orientation among such twins if the homosexual condition were simply determined by the genetic code, in the same way as hair, eye, and skin color (and countless other personal characteristics).
19 Cf. for example, Charles Socarides, *Homosexuality: A Freedom Too Far *(Phoenix, AZ: Adam Margrave Books, 1995), p. 149). Dr. Socarides reports here that, after thirty years of offering such therapy, he has had an overall success rate of about 35% among his homosexual clients who have sought a change in orientation. It should be added, however, that in the estimation of this psychiatrist, many cases of ‘failure’ have been due to the client’s lack of will or motivation to persevere in the process of counseling and/or the corresponding personal effort required, rather than to any intrinsic or absolute impossibility of change. The commitment of each client’s free will and a strong level of personal motivation appear to be necessary (though unfortunately not always sufficient) factors in bringing about successful change.
20 For up-to-date scientific information on the treatment and changeability of homosexual orientation, see the website of the U.S. National Association for Research & Therapy of Homosexuality (NARTH) — (www.narth.com). See also the year 2001 Declaration of the Catholic Medical Association of the United States (www.cathmed.org), entitled “Homosexuality and Hope”. A Spanish translation of this document (“Homosexualidad y esperanza”) can be found on the Spanish-language website of Human Life International (www.vidahumana.org ).
rtforum.org/lt/index.html
**LIVING TRADITION, JANUARY 2013 No. 162, pages 6, 7
Why Are Homosexual Acts Wrong? (PDF) Fr Brian W. Harrison
Extracts:
“…scientific research does not support the hypothesis that a homosexual orientation is genetically predetermined, or “created by God”. On the contrary, studies of the incidence of homosexuality among adult identical twins have thoroughly discredited this hypothesis.18 According to a growing consensus among serious investigators, inherited biological factors may indeed play some role in inclining certain individuals toward homosexual attraction and activity — as such factors undoubtedly do in regard to many other psychological and behavioral tendencies. But they are not in themselves the dominant cause, and much less an irresistible, determining cause, of the homosexual condition. Rather, the evidence shows that a variety of social and psychological causes originating during childhood development play a more decisive role in leading to this condition. Abundant studies of male homosexuals, for instance, reveal that in a very large proportion of the case histories of such men, their family environment during early childhood was one in which the boy’s relationship with his father was defective or non-existent, while his mother was very close to him, with a strongly protective pattern of behavior."
Notes:
18 These studies have shown that only around half of such persons, when homosexual in orientation, have twin siblings who are also homosexual. Since identical twins always have identical genetic codes, there would necessarily be a 100% identity of sexual orientation among such twins if the homosexual condition were simply determined by the genetic code, in the same way as hair, eye, and skin color (and countless other personal characteristics).
19 Cf. for example, Charles Socarides, *Homosexuality: A Freedom Too Far *(Phoenix, AZ: Adam Margrave Books, 1995), p. 149). Dr. Socarides reports here that, after thirty years of offering such therapy, he has had an overall success rate of about 35% among his homosexual clients who have sought a change in orientation. It should be added, however, that in the estimation of this psychiatrist, many cases of ‘failure’ have been due to the client’s lack of will or motivation to persevere in the process of counseling and/or the corresponding personal effort required, rather than to any intrinsic or absolute impossibility of change. The commitment of each client’s free will and a strong level of personal motivation appear to be necessary (though unfortunately not always sufficient) factors in bringing about successful change.
20 For up-to-date scientific information on the treatment and changeability of homosexual orientation, see the website of the U.S. National Association for Research & Therapy of Homosexuality (NARTH) — (www.narth.com). See also the year 2001 Declaration of the Catholic Medical Association of the United States (www.cathmed.org), entitled “Homosexuality and Hope”. A Spanish translation of this document (“Homosexualidad y esperanza”) can be found on the Spanish-language website of Human Life International (www.vidahumana.org ).
rtforum.org/lt/index.html
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frobert
Guest
I must say it takes a heroic person to continue to defend NARTH which has been discredited, nearly across the board since Fr. Harvey’s book was published. In addition the conversion therapy that they support and advocate has been deemed unethical by all the major professional mental health associations because it (conversion therapy) has been found to cause significant harm.
You are accusing a lot of professionals and professional organizations of being delusional. In stead of introducing ad hominem accusations follow the links and do your own research and find out why they (mental health professionals and association) have come to the conclusions did. Then tell us if you still believe its a delusional conspiracy.
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Prodigal_Son
Guest
Beautiful, humble, and enriching post!
We all need a little perspective sometimes. I know I do.
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Abu
Guest
The irrelevance of the hype here against sound reparative therapy has been exposed frequently, and even the hostile and derogatory American Psychological Association has seen some of its errors.
**NEW ORLEANS, Louisiana, August 29, 2006 (LifeSiteNews.com) **–President of the American Psychological Association, Dr. Gerald P. Koocher, broke with the APA’s long-held stance against homosexual re-orientation therapy earlier this month, saying the organization would support psychological therapy for those experiencing unwanted homosexual attractions, the National Association for the Therapy and Treatment of Homosexuality (NARTH) reported.
Speaking with NARTH President Joseph Nicolosi at the APA’s annual convention in New Orleans, Dr. Koocher stated, “APA has no conflict with psychologists who help those distressed by unwanted homosexual attraction.” Dr. Koocher emphasized that so long as patient autonomy and choice were respected, the APA’s Code of Ethics would certainly encompass psychological treatment of those who wish to be free of homosexual attraction.
The APA has long been hostile toward the work of NARTH, saying attempts to alter the sexual inclinations of homosexual or lesbian persons amount to discrimination against homosexuality.
“This is a historic step for client autonomy and self-determination,” said NARTH psychologist Dr. Dean Byrd in the organization’s report. “Dr. Koocher’s statements were clear and unambiguous in support of the rights of those who are distressed by their unwanted homosexual attraction. In fact, the message conveyed by Dr. Koocher today is identical to NARTH’s mission statement. I hope that APA and NARTH can now begin a fruitful dialogue about this very important issue.”
tinyurl.com/o7z8p3t
**NEW ORLEANS, Louisiana, August 29, 2006 (LifeSiteNews.com) **–President of the American Psychological Association, Dr. Gerald P. Koocher, broke with the APA’s long-held stance against homosexual re-orientation therapy earlier this month, saying the organization would support psychological therapy for those experiencing unwanted homosexual attractions, the National Association for the Therapy and Treatment of Homosexuality (NARTH) reported.
Speaking with NARTH President Joseph Nicolosi at the APA’s annual convention in New Orleans, Dr. Koocher stated, “APA has no conflict with psychologists who help those distressed by unwanted homosexual attraction.” Dr. Koocher emphasized that so long as patient autonomy and choice were respected, the APA’s Code of Ethics would certainly encompass psychological treatment of those who wish to be free of homosexual attraction.
The APA has long been hostile toward the work of NARTH, saying attempts to alter the sexual inclinations of homosexual or lesbian persons amount to discrimination against homosexuality.
“This is a historic step for client autonomy and self-determination,” said NARTH psychologist Dr. Dean Byrd in the organization’s report. “Dr. Koocher’s statements were clear and unambiguous in support of the rights of those who are distressed by their unwanted homosexual attraction. In fact, the message conveyed by Dr. Koocher today is identical to NARTH’s mission statement. I hope that APA and NARTH can now begin a fruitful dialogue about this very important issue.”
tinyurl.com/o7z8p3t
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SMGS127
Guest
Wow, the cognitive dissonance is strong in this statement.
Do you know what it means to help those “distressed by unwanted homosexual attractions?” You could do what my college counselor did, which is help the patient love themselves and find a balance in their behavior with their orientation and the reason behind their stress. In my case, it was learning to love myself, SSAs and all, and adjusting my behavior as to be one with the Church. This is a perfectly valid form of counseling.
On the other hand, what NARTH is advocating is a complete impossibility, extremely harmful, and risky to its patients. And it is one thing for an informed adult to put themselves at such a psychological risk for a fake therapy, but children should absolutely be barred from being put into these torture sessions by well-meaning but foolish parents.
NARTH is one of the worst organizations on the planet today. They have ruined more children’s lives than they can possibly imagine. I hope one day they seek forgiveness for their evil and apologize to those they devastated, like Exodus International has done. It is ridiculous to assert that Catholicism endorses, let alone requires engaging in psychological torture and evil in order to be moral.
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SMGS127
Guest
Thanks, but this forum made me lose my faith a long time ago, so it’s a bit late. I do appreciate the standing up for gays and lesbians though, although it won’t do any good considering the months and months of time I’ve had to realize how awful this forum is.
I used to wonder why my gay friends wouldn’t join the Church, knowing that the Church did not endorse half the crazy stuff that comes out of the laity’s mouth. Now, I can’t possibly imagine why any gay person would become Catholic with all the vitriol thrown at us by the laity.
I accept Catholic teaching, even that which is nearly impossible to understand, even that which is coached in awful, mean-spirited language, even that which seems logically circular or wrong. But I no longer defend the laity.
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SMGS127
Guest
I think you misunderstood my post. We naturally separate due to differing interests, language, etc. But we still love hanging out with and respect heterosexuals; they’re just unlikely to be part of our inner circle.
By the way, both to you and bob: please do not take the preceding post as directed at you. You are one of the good ones.
Peace be to you Mark, and God bless everyone here, even those who act absent a Catholic heart.
~ SMGS127
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SMGS127
Guest
Thank you kozlo, but as you know, I still do oppose same-sex marriage. I accept the faith, even if I no longer want anything to do with the people in the Church. I only identify as Catholic in the strict sense of baptism/confirmation through Christ. But I still accept that the Church teaches Truth. And please remember that same-sex sexual activity is spiritually harmful in your ministry to LGBT friends, but thank you for sure for your kind heart in treatment of us.
When I’m flamed on CAF for being pro gay unions or being a cafeteria Catholic, I remember what it was like, even 40 years ago, for gay or transgender individuals. I think that within the next five years this issue will be totally settled law for the entire Western World (even Mississippi and West Virginia!). When individuals rant and rave about reparative therapy (QUACKERY to the first degree) I always inquire if they think that any kind of therapy could make them gay. Of course, they must say NO.
Thank you again for your heartfelt posts, and I pray that some good CAF members will read your plea to family and friends of LGBTQ and take heed.
With regards to my post, I only seek to protect LGBT children from predatory organizations like NARTH. I am not endorsing the sexual activity, despite how much I miss what I used to have, and despite knowing I will never agree at my core with Church rationale against it. But God set up the Church for a reason, even on issues where the teachings completely make no sense.
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Abu
Guest
The manipulation practised is described well by the Church.
LETTER TO THE BISHOPS OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH ON THE PASTORAL CARE OF HOMOSEXUAL PERSONS
Extracts:
3. “Therefore special concern and pastoral attention should be directed toward those who have this condition, lest they be led to believe that the living out of this orientation in homosexual activity is a morally acceptable option. It is not.
LETTER TO THE BISHOPS OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH ON THE PASTORAL CARE OF HOMOSEXUAL PERSONS
Extracts:
3. “Therefore special concern and pastoral attention should be directed toward those who have this condition, lest they be led to believe that the living out of this orientation in homosexual activity is a morally acceptable option. It is not.
- Nevertheless, increasing numbers of people today, even within the Church, are bringing enormous pressure to bear on the Church to accept the homosexual condition as though it were not disordered and to condone homosexual activity. Those within the Church who argue in this fashion often have close ties with those with similar views outside it. These latter groups are guided by a vision opposed to the truth about the human person, which is fully disclosed in the mystery of Christ. They reflect, even if not entirely consciously, a materialistic ideology which denies the transcendent nature of the human person as well as the supernatural vocation of every individual.
- There is an effort in some countries to manipulate the Church by gaining the often well-intentioned support of her pastors with a view to changing civil-statutes and laws. This is done in order to conform to these pressure groups’ concept that homosexuality is at least a completely harmless, if not an entirely good, thing. Even when the practice of homosexuality may seriously threaten the lives and well-being of a large number of people, its advocates remain undeterred and refuse to consider the magnitude of the risks involved.
1 October 1986.
JOSEPH CARDINAL RATZINGER
Prefect
vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19861001_homosexual-persons_en.html
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Starrsmother
Guest
I appreciate your (name removed by moderator)ut and don’t want to fight with you so let’s just drop it. I know my daughter better than you. I know when the change came from a girl chasing boys to a girl–and then a druggy chasing girls. Good luck–I’ll stick with Courage and Encourage.
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Sneaux
Guest
I just wanted to say to the OP, that you’re not alone. My story is basically the same as yours. I was 11 years old liking girls, when I didn’t even know girls could actually like girls. I knew boys could like boys though, and I knew that was wrong. I had never even heard the word lesbian, but I had the biggest crush on this girl…and I liked her, for years. Like you, you said you haven’t been celibate all of your life, well, neither have I. I dated a girl for 2 years, and she’s recently gotten back in contact with me, and I’m so lost…since we broke up, I said I was going to be celibate, because my faith means so much to me, but so does she…I want both, and I know that I can’t have both and be in good graces with the Church, I know that I’m probably not helping at all, but I just wanted to let you know, that you’re not going through this alone.
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One_point
Guest
Huh? Complete impossibility? What a definitive statement!
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SMGS127
Guest
It is an impossibility to change one’s orientation.
What IS possible is changing one’s behavior. Someone can date a person they aren’t attracted to, become celibate, date someone to whom they have a lesser attraction to, etc. These are not conversion therapy “success stories” any more than me having sex with men would be a success story.
Therapists are more than licitly allowed to encourage someone in their desire to alter their behavior. But attempting to alter someone’s orientation will lead to someone losing their clinical license.
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One_point
Guest
Bottom line, some Catholics don’t know the meaning of concupiscence. The homosexual orientation is a concupiscence. A tendency to sin. It is one of the three enemies of the soul in John in the Bible. the devil, the flesh and the world. We are to be rescued from all of them, eventually, just as we are rescued first from sin and death at baptism. There is no Catholic way to call a tendency to sin something good, normal or ordered. It is a sickness that needs healing, a species of lust, which almost all of us have in one way or another. Those lucky few who don’t struggle with this particular fault struggle with others maybe worse faults like envy and pride.
I frankly think it is a sin against hope or even faith to insist that something is beyond the healing that God has taught us in the church to hope for regarding our spiritual illnesses. We are not all the same. Look at the saints. Some of them struggled with their faults almost to the death bed and some faults they overcame very quickly. It is a process. It looks different from one person to the next. The easy victories of some are long hard battles for others even if they are both great saints. What I find odd for catholics is to begin with an attitude that removes from the negotiating table some faults as not to be targeted for healing. Why? It maybe the worldly therapies are quackaries and could be improved but that has nothing to do with catholic healing which is spiritual. Anyone who surrenders his deepest sins to Christ and continues to be happy and do their best with the rest of their lives has no reason to decide without any definitive evidence that sinful orientations are beyond healing in this world. That some categories of concupiscence have only been kept for healing in another world. Why? Surrender what you cant control and don’t let it worry you. But don’t also be emotionally invested in the idea that your concupiscence is unchangeable. What gave you that conviction? Was it the wisdom of God in the church or is it the world? Surrendering what we cant change and being happy fcussing on what we can. That’s how all of us deal with those sins and tendencies that are beyond our ability to conquer. Then one at a time and sometimes when least expected, they are healed. and we don’t know how. That’s grace. That’s why we are believers. we are not beholden to worldly knowledge when it comes to spiritual ills. No doctor can heal a sick soul in any truly lasting fashion but the Holy Spirit can and we are all sick souls.
So I think that while non-gay catholics are encouraged to be more compassionate with gay catholics, gay catholics should also be told boldly to give up this lie of the world that their concupiscence is not an illness of the human flesh just like all the other tendencies that don’t amount to sin unless acted upon but nevertheless reside in all our souls like roots that will eventually getting fixed by God in prayer and sacraments and purgatory.
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Starrsmother
Guest
And that’s a horrible shame if a provider lost his or her license for offering to help someone who truly wants to be rid of SSA rather than to simply cover it with thick icing. Obviously I am speaking of bonafide, sane, caring, Christian treatment here–not some of the awful torture programs once used many years ago, but not these days. There are many absolute success stories–you can find many on line and Kindle has many books written by people who have been healed and happily, proudly and with joy want to reach out and share how they personally achieved the success they desperately wanted, They are only too happy to share their success stories of changing their “sexual orientation”–though I agree it doesn’t work for everyone and the person has to want that change badly enough to work at it–and work hard!. In other words, it doesn’t matter what a person’s friends or family want for him or her–it’s up to the person with the problem!, If the SSA person is put into therapy to alter his or her sexual orientation but they are still toying with the idea of maybe meeting up with a girl they once had an affair with and that they are still somewhat enamored with,I think they are playing mind games with themselves–something I call "mental masturbation-- and obviously such therapy would be a waste of time for both the person and the therapist. The only valid reason for a person to change any area of their life is if THEY really want to. However, denying someone who truly wants to change the opportunity for treatment and help aimed at such is morally WRONG! It’s about the same as denying a 5’ tall, 350 lb woman the chance to lose weight in hope it will rid her of her diabetes and hypertension because she’s been fat all her life or to deny a 2 pack per day smoker help in quitting because he’s smoked since he was 12, It is completely wrong.
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frobert
Guest
Wow! That is quite a statement. Do you have any non faith-based evidence that a gay orientation is only a “strong sexual desire; lust?” Don’t get me wrong all sexual orientations have their own versions of concupiscence.
Does it make any sense to you if someone where to say that a heterosexual orientation is nothing more nor less than “a strong sexual desire?”
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One_point
Guest
The secularist magisterium has infallibly declared that the homosexual orientation is good and wholesome, impossible to be rid of, and impossible to resist in action. Denying any of these dogmas is deemed heresy. I already understand those stances. Whether they are objective truth is a different matter altogether. But I know you are Catholic and you accept the authority of a different magisterium. So i dont understand why you are attached to the idea that homosexual orientation is somehow a vital and unchangeable part of you such that you are unable to accept the designation the church has given it, a tendency to sin? You call it instead a normal and good attraction, See that?
Another thing You say a psychologist helped you by leading you to love yourself with your SSA which is very good. But how deeply rooted do you think that love he taught you to cultivate for yourself is, if it at the end of the day it depends on treating a mere tendency whether deep rooted or not, as part of your deeper self that you must take to be a good thing in order to accept and love yourself? I can accept that I have a tendency to alcoholism without being convinced that it is a good and normal thing for me and love myself as God made me even with all my faults still very much present (which they are). Because who I am is something much deeper than my weaknesses, there is no need to insist that my weaknesses as good things just because I can’t change them. God loves you the person, his image. Not your illnesses, which he wants to heal precisely because he loves you. True self love comes from the knowledge that we are already loved without earning it one inch, already chosen, loved inspite of any faults or circumstances, loved unconditionally. It doesn’t come from saying everything about us is a good thing. Some things we must change. Some we must accept and leave to the one who can change. But its the attitude and conviction that it shouldn’t even be open to a change that I find odd for a Catholic (not for non Catholics or for dissenting Catholics which I know you are not).
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SMGS127
Guest
SM, your analogy works for this reason, but for my point:And that’s a horrible shame if a provider lost his or her license for offering to help someone who truly wants to be rid of SSA rather than to simply cover it with thick icing. Obviously I am speaking of bonafide, sane, caring, Christian treatment here–not some of the awful torture programs once used many years ago, but not these days. There are many absolute success stories–you can find many on line and Kindle has many books written by people who have been healed and happily, proudly and with joy want to reach out and share how they personally achieved the success they desperately wanted, They are only too happy to share their success stories of changing their “sexual orientation”–though I agree it doesn’t work for everyone and the person has to want that change badly enough to work at it–and work hard!. In other words, it doesn’t matter what a person’s friends or family want for him or her–it’s up to the person with the problem!, If the SSA person is put into therapy to alter his or her sexual orientation but they are still toying with the idea of maybe meeting up with a girl they once had an affair with and that they are still somewhat enamored with,I think they are playing mind games with themselves–something I call "mental masturbation-- and obviously such therapy would be a waste of time for both the person and the therapist. The only valid reason for a person to change any area of their life is if THEY really want to. However, denying someone who truly wants to change the opportunity for treatment and help aimed at such is morally WRONG! It’s about the same as denying a 5’ tall, 350 lb woman the chance to lose weight in hope it will rid her of her diabetes and hypertension because she’s been fat all her life or to deny a 2 pack per day smoker help in quitting because he’s smoked since he was 12, It is completely wrong.
Let’s say that someone was being treated for obesity. What would a nutritionist say? “Change your behavior.” Eat less, eat healthier, exercise, etc. but imagine if there was an entire group of people who thought obese kids should get thrown in therapy to change their genetic predisposition to obesity? These same people told the obese that no matter how much they changed their behavior and no matter how skinny they got, they were still fat as long as their genetics were predisposed to obesity. THAT is what NARTH does to homosexuals. They are evil.
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