Disorders have existed “throughout human history and cultures” so it is hardly a valid argument to claim that whatever meets those criteria is normal, unless we’re ready to admit that all pathologies are normal, which empties the term of any useful meaning.
I slightly disagree. I think there needs to be a gay and lesbian movement in the Church, ideally a disorganized one. As for an organization, I don’t think it’s necessary, and it would further the myth that gay people are “not like us” – this is my biggest pet peeve against Courage.There really need to be a true gay and lesbian organization within the Church that teaches acceptance of oneself, denial of one’s immoral wants through one’s behavior, love of oneself and others, pushes the moral requirement heterosexuals in the Church hold to treat gays with compassion and respect, and actually provides a community for gays and lesbians in the Church. We currently don’t have that, and I highly suspect it’s due to overly conservative paranoid crazies in the Church who can’t possibly imagine gay people who are content with their sexuality not uncontrollably sleeping together (or parading) when they collect together.
The word “normal” is hardly ever used usefully, except in clinical settings. Usually, the word “normal” is used to create an “in group” and an “out group”.
I don’t mind people considering gay people different in a way. We have different cultures, different manners of speaking, a broader gender expression (which lends credence to a biological theory of basis), etc. We naturally split ourselves off from heterosexuals for the same reason straight women do from straight men – different interests and understandings of life. I can talk all day with lesbian friends about anything and just get them. I can’t do the same with men or even heterosexual girls.
Something is “abnormal” when it unexpectantly occurs. Homosexuality across a populace should be expected as it is a normal variation of sexual orientation that has occurred throughout history. On the flip side, if 4% of the population started spontaneously and uncontrollably dancing, that would be unexpected and abnormal. See the difference?
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Are we discussing philosophy?
As a debunked therapy, it is highly questionable that conversion therapy is “beneficial, advantageous, good, profitable, productive, helpful, useful, valuable or worthwhile” I am not speaking to science in general, but only to conversion therapy,
Fr Harvey’s book from which he draws heavily on NARTH was written in 1999. Since then NARTH has been discredited, nearly across the board.
Must you call another human a THING? I mean really. You are obviously upset about your child and angry, but please be respectful of other people.
I can imagine the same reasons being given to have a special “black ministry” in the Church, or an “Asian ministry”. And sure, people in various groups (especially “out groups”) tend to congregate together, and that’s fine. But I don’t think that, pastorally, it’s good to encourage.
I totally 100% DISAGREE with you on the value and care that Courage provides. I have a 26 year old lesbian daughter, and I belong to Encourage on line–there’s no group where I live. What I’ve found is a wonderful group of caring people who pray for our loved ones, provide invaluable info including books and other material that attempts to help us not only understand what made our loved ones choose or follow this lifestyle and ways that have helped change some of them at least, to turn back to normal heterosexual lifestyles. There is no gay gene and people are NOT born gay. Something occurs at some point in their development that causes them to mix up their sexual identity and preference from a normal one to a disordered one. This “occurrence” is not necessarily anyone’s fault though parents tend to blame themselves. Often the family sees signs looking back–but at the time, these signs weren’t obvious enough to have caused the family to see a problem developing. Another whole issue is what goes on today in public education and in particular when you send a perfectly normal kid off to some of these crazy liberal universities that pride themselves on being oh so PC and anything goes–and is even ENCOURAGED AND PRAISED!! Some SSA people want to change and CAN change—with help and support. Others don’t change and the hope there is to at least support them positively with love and support from their family, even as we set reasonable ground rules for this relationship such as we won’t attend their gay marriages or allow them to sleep over in our homes with their partner. I have nothing but good things to say about Courage and Encourage–other than there isn’t a group in every parish! The church still doesn’t seem to grasp the importance of getting their hands dirty by reaching out to help the LGBT community–particularly those who were born and raised as Catholics but often drop out once they enter the lifestyle as they perceive the indifference of the church as a whole!Objective disorder yes. What does this mean in Catholicism? As I said, it means that the orientation is a disorder INSOFAR as it leads to a moral evil, e.g. homosexual sex. But as with every discussion on this issue, for some reason, people can’t understand that objective disorder doesn’t mean intrinsic disorder. An intrinsic disorder needs to be fixed because it constitutes a moral evil itself. An objective disorder is only a disorder as long as its object remains an evil. A person who uses a gay or lesbian orientation to further a moral good does NOT have an objective disorder. There is NO need to change one’s orientation, nor is it even possible.
As for Courage, I agree with you and disagree with Joie on the issue. Courage does necessitate that one tries to alter their orientation, although it does not require one be successful in doing so. As such, it is virtually a worthless organization, requiring a certain amount of self-hatred to join, disallowing for the possibility of accepting oneself as they are, and moving past merely helping people adjust behavior into trying to force people to deny their very selves. I consider Courage about as useful to Catholicism as any other fringe group in the Church.
There really need to be a true gay and lesbian organization within the Church that teaches acceptance of oneself, denial of one’s immoral wants through one’s behavior, love of oneself and others, pushes the moral requirement heterosexuals in the Church hold to treat gays with compassion and respect, and actually provides a community for gays and lesbians in the Church. We currently don’t have that, and I highly suspect it’s due to overly conservative paranoid crazies in the Church who can’t possibly imagine gay people who are content with their sexuality not uncontrollably sleeping together (or parading
Then again, maybe not: when a limb falls from a tree it is certainly unexpected, and just as certainly it is not abnormal.
Are birth defects considered normal or abnormal? They certainly occur regularly throughout all populations; should we consider them normal variations as well? The problem you are trying to resolve is actually twofold: to show both that homosexuality is “normal” and that everything that is normal is therefore, if not a positive good, at least acceptable. I don’t think you’ll be able to demonstrate that either is true.
Very well said!
Actually, you get it a little wrong–there are programs to assist serial sinners who are trying to change and the church often is involved in them. A few examples are Alcoholics Anonymous and Narcotics Anonymous to help alcoholics or drug users, preCana training to assist people getting married to completely understand God’s rules for marriage before they dive in, and even programs on the 7 deadly sins. At least this is so in my parish. I do agree that gays tend to take a nearly militant approach to their homosexuality and it is certainly annoying. I honestly believe that a lot of this is due to our society which today tries to convince everyone from minorities to gang bangers that they are victims.I think that this is one more reason though that the church should reach out to homosexuals. If all of a sudden we notice a growing drug problem, the church–infact ALL churches–set up help programs. Well, the fact is that we are experiencing a rise and growing homosexual problem!
Bob,
Listen, Starrsmother.
Just an observation. The above quote is very telling to me. If this is completely true, then it’s clear for me at least to see how some Catholics with SS inclinations would ***never ***be able to accept what the Church teaches on this topic. You fully admit that you separate yourself from heterosexuals. You can’t talk to them and as you say, just “get” them as you would your lesbian friends. I could see how that separation could conceivably build an invisible “wall,” an obstacle if you will, that hinders or impedes some Catholics who have these inclinations from listening objectively to what the Church has to say about this. And when I look very carefully at the title of this thread. I’m seeing a hint of these exact same sentiments.
I have always admired your writing style SMGS, but today you almost made me tear up. Your forthrightness and honesty are amazing! In 1965-67 i was in what we called junior high. The French teacher was a wonderful teacher, and he was also very, very effeminate. I, along with the rest of the uneducated, foolish and bully kids taunted the poor man on a daily basis. “Queer” was the catch phrase at that time along with “f****t”. When I was a junior in high school poor Mr. Scott who had lived everyday putting up with stupid and unfeeling kids, killed himself. If there was ever one lesson I learned in life, it was from that horrible set of circumstances that I was a major part of. Having taught high school for 35 years, I met many LGBTQ students and I often thought of Mr. Scott and how different his life was in that closet compared to theirs.Many people of all orientations who have listened objectively to what the Church has to say about this but have concluded differently. I ask does the CC consider them to be immoral and if so how does the CC objectively come to that conclusion?
Although I agree with most of your points I think we have to keep in mind that SMGS is a fairly new Catholic and, like many of us, trying to understand why the church teaches what it teaches. She has stated that she has problems with the teachings of the Church on homosexuality, but follows them. I can say the same about myself on several teachings of the church not the least of which is the prohibition of barrier methods of contraception. But, like SMGS, I follow them regardless.
