Serious doubts about Church teaching on homosexuality

[One_point]

Wow! That is quite a statement. Do you have any non faith-based evidence that a gay orientation is only a “strong sexual desire; lust?” Don’t get me wrong all sexual orientations have their own versions of concupiscence.

Does it make any sense to you if someone where to say that a heterosexual orientation is nothing more nor less than “a strong sexual desire?”

I defer to the Catholic magisterium. you are free to defer to secular magisteriums and “evidences” .

 

[One_point]

SM, your analogy works for this reason, but for my point:

Let’s say that someone was being treated for obesity. What would a nutritionist say? “Change your behavior.” Eat less, eat healthier, exercise, etc. but imagine if there was an entire group of people who thought obese kids should get thrown in therapy to change their genetic predisposition to obesity? These same people told the obese that no matter how much they changed their behavior and no matter how skinny they got, they were still fat as long as their genetics were predisposed to obesity. THAT is what NARTH does to homosexuals. They are evil.

We are not talking about something like a genetic predisposition to gaining weight necessarily, more like gluttony. Surely the tendency to overeat is something people can change. The idea that homesexuality is in the genes…has that been proved or is it merely believed almost as a matter of faith? There maybe some gay people who have it in their genes. Who knows. The twin studies seem to suggest not. There may be others who don’t have t in the genese but still have it in in a manner tied to their biology such that they cannot be rid of it except by a medical miracle. I have a hard time believing that these would comprise the greater portion of individuals who have SSA, though. Surely you must allow that at the very least, not all gay people would be this way. So why wouldn’t they be able to change? Change doesn’t mean become attracted to the opposite sex necessarily, but many holy religious after a long disciple in the monastery can transcende their sexual desire after many years of faithful fight against temptations against chastity. Why woudnt this at least be possible for gay catholics in your view?

 

[Starrsmother]

SM, your analogy works for this reason, but for my point:

Let’s say that someone was being treated for obesity. What would a nutritionist say? “Change your behavior.” Eat less, eat healthier, exercise, etc. but imagine if there was an entire group of people who thought obese kids should get thrown in therapy to change their genetic predisposition to obesity? These same people told the obese that no matter how much they changed their behavior and no matter how skinny they got, they were still fat as long as their genetics were predisposed to obesity. THAT is what NARTH does to homosexuals. They are evil.

1. Homosexual acts are gravely disordered and a mortal sin, Period.
2. Thus, if someone chooses to live as a homosexual and be in communion with the church, that means they must be willing to accept basically a life alone with no sex partner or kids for their entire life on earth.
3. I didn’t say that homosexuals all had to or would benefit from therapy aimed at redirecting their sexual preference–infact I specifically said that it should be an option–and a legal one that isn’t looked down on—if the homosexual person wishes to try it… If the person doesn’t want to try it, it wouldn’t work anyway, so why bother?

 

[frobert]

I defer to the Catholic magisterium. you are free to defer to secular magisteriums and “evidences” .

Thank you for answering my question.

You didn’t reply to my second question but I think I can rightly assume that it **does not **make any sense to you if someone where to say that a heterosexual orientation is nothing more nor less than “a strong sexual desire?”

 

[frobert]

I defer to the Catholic magisterium. you are free to defer to secular magisteriums and “evidences”

Thank you for answering one of my questions

You didn’t reply the second question but I think I can rightly assume that it **does not **make any sense to you if someone where to say that a heterosexual orientation is nothing more nor less than “a strong sexual desire?”

 

[estesbob]

Thank you for answering my question.

You didn’t reply to my second question but I think I can rightly assume that it **does not **make any sense to you if someone where to say that a heterosexual orientation is nothing more nor less than “a strong sexual desire?”

Orientation is a fairly recent social construct. As Catholics we focus on gender-not attractions.

 

[estesbob]

Thanks, but this forum made me lose my faith a long time ago, so it’s a bit late. I do appreciate the standing up for gays and lesbians though, although it won’t do any good considering the months and months of time I’ve had to realize how awful this forum is.

I used to wonder why my gay friends wouldn’t join the Church, knowing that the Church did not endorse half the crazy stuff that comes out of the laity’s mouth. Now, I can’t possibly imagine why any gay person would become Catholic with all the vitriol thrown at us by the laity.

I accept Catholic teaching, even that which is nearly impossible to understand, even that which is coached in awful, mean-spirited language, even that which seems logically circular or wrong. But I no longer defend the laity.

Compassion and respect is required of all.Do you show the same compassion and respect for the laity who disagree with you as you all them to show for homosexuals?

I have been a Catholic my whole life.I have NEVER seen the alleged vitrol thrown at homosexuals by the laity in any Parish I have been in our from any Catholic I have known.

As one who has been around here for 10 years left me give you some unsolicited advice.If these forums cause you to question your faith or cause unresolved anger and resentment towards the members off the Church you should flee them with all due haste.

 

[estesbob]

Thanks, but this forum made me lose my faith a long time ago, so it’s a bit late. I do appreciate the standing up for gays and lesbians though, although it won’t do any good considering the months and months of time I’ve had to realize how awful this forum is.

I used to wonder why my gay friends wouldn’t join the Church, knowing that the Church did not endorse half the crazy stuff that comes out of the laity’s mouth. Now, I can’t possibly imagine why any gay person would become Catholic with all the vitriol thrown at us by the laity.

I accept Catholic teaching, even that which is nearly impossible to understand, even that which is coached in awful, mean-spirited language, even that which seems logically circular or wrong. But I no longer defend the laity.

Compassion and respect is required of all.Do you show the same compassion and respect for the laity who disagree with you as you all them to show for homosexuals?

I have been a Catholic my whole life.I have NEVER seen the alleged vitrol thrown at homosexuals by the laity in any Parish I have been in our from any Catholic I have known.

As one who has been around here for 10 years left me give you some unsolicited advice.If these forums cause you to question your faith or cause unresolved anger and resentment towards the members off the Church you should flee them with all due haste.

 

[kozlosap]

Thank you kozlo, but as you know, I still do oppose same-sex marriage. I accept the faith, even if I no longer want anything to do with the people in the Church. I only identify as Catholic in the strict sense of baptism/confirmation through Christ. But I still accept that the Church teaches Truth. And please remember that same-sex sexual activity is spiritually harmful in your ministry to LGBT friends, but thank you for sure for your kind heart in treatment of us.

With regards to my post, I only seek to protect LGBT children from predatory organizations like NARTH. I am not endorsing the sexual activity, despite how much I miss what I used to have, and despite knowing I will never agree at my core with Church rationale against it. But God set up the Church for a reason, even on issues where the teachings completely make no sense.

I support civil unions, I would never support sacramental marriage unless the Church condoned it! Happy 4th everyone!!!

 

[Ender]

Let’s say that someone was being treated for obesity. What would a nutritionist say? “Change your behavior.” Eat less, eat healthier, exercise, etc. but imagine if there was an entire group of people who thought obese kids should get thrown in therapy to change their genetic predisposition to obesity?

I believe some people have a genetic predisposition to obesity which I suspect is very much like having a genetic predisposition to homosexuality. That said, it is clear that predispositions can be controlled; the obese can in fact lose weight. It is also true that therapy can be an aid in that process, so, while I doubt that NARTH or anyone else believes people should be “thrown into” therapy, there is nothing untoward in believing that predispositions can be overcome and that therapy is often helpful to that process.

These same people told the obese that no matter how much they changed their behavior and no matter how skinny they got, they were still fat as long as their genetics were predisposed to obesity. THAT is what NARTH does to homosexuals. They are evil.

I can understand how someone would hate NARTH but this assertion is simply irrational. I’m pretty sure that no one would actually believe someone who reversed his obesity and became thin was still obese. It might be that an alcoholic is always an alcoholic regardless of his behavior (because of his reaction to alcohol) but an alcoholic is not always a drunk. Our inclinations can be controlled if we are sufficiently determined to control them.

Ender

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

I appreciate your (name removed by moderator)ut and don’t want to fight with you so let’s just drop it. I know my daughter better than you. I know when the change came from a girl chasing boys to a girl–and then a druggy chasing girls. Good luck–I’ll stick with Courage and Encourage.

Most parents don’t know their children anywhere near as well as they think they do.

And that’s a horrible shame if a provider lost his or her license for offering to help someone who truly wants to be rid of SSA rather than to simply cover it with thick icing. Obviously I am speaking of bonafide, sane, caring, Christian treatment here–not some of the awful torture programs once used many years ago, but not these days.** There are many absolute success stories–you can find many on line and Kindle has many books written by people who have been healed and happily, proudly and with joy want to reach out and share how they personally achieved the success they desperately wanted, They are only too happy to share their success stories of changing their “sexual orientation”–though I agree it doesn’t work for everyone and the person has to want that change badly enough to work at it–and work hard!.** In other words, it doesn’t matter what a person’s friends or family want for him or her–it’s up to the person with the problem!, If the SSA person is put into therapy to alter his or her sexual orientation but they are still toying with the idea of maybe meeting up with a girl they once had an affair with and that they are still somewhat enamored with,I think they are playing mind games with themselves–something I call "mental masturbation-- and obviously such therapy would be a waste of time for both the person and the therapist. The only valid reason for a person to change any area of their life is if THEY really want to. However, denying someone who truly wants to change the opportunity for treatment and help aimed at such is morally WRONG! It’s about the same as denying a 5’ tall, 350 lb woman the chance to lose weight in hope it will rid her of her diabetes and hypertension because she’s been fat all her life or to deny a 2 pack per day smoker help in quitting because he’s smoked since he was 12, It is completely wrong.

What about all of those claimed success stories who later had their marriage collapse when they had an affair with someone of the same sex?

It’s ethically acceptable for a psychologist to help a patient learn to live a chaste.

 

[frobert]

Orientation is a fairly recent social construct. As Catholics we focus on gender-not attractions.

How does that pertain to the question I which is the one I presume you are responding to? Coulnd you be responding to a different post of mine or poster?

 

[frobert]

Orientation is a fairly recent social construct. As Catholics we focus on gender-not attractions.

How does that pertain to the question I which is the one I presume you are responding to? Could you be responding to a different post of mine or poster?

 

[One_point]

Most parents don’t know their children anywhere near as well as they think they do.

What about all of those claimed success stories who later had their marriage collapse when they had an affair with someone of the same sex?

It’s ethically acceptable for a psychologist to help a patient learn to live a chaste.

This is another notion I find curious. So a person is a porn addict or an alcoholic or addicted to cigarettes and has been undergoing therapy and hopefully spiritual guidance to change this aspect and have been successful. Never smoked for 5 years. Then one day, they are feeling bad and weak and allow themselves to be reacquainted with old smoking or drinking buddies or indulges in looking at pornographic pictures. He sins. Of course. Maybe he even requires his old addiction. Apparently, this means he was incapable of change all along? I surely think anyone who has overcome a deep addiction or strong tendency would strongly disagree. The only world in which that fellow would be immune from temptation is heaven. Here, he must be vigilant even as he overcomes his issues. If he permits himself into dangerous scenarios he will fall back to his old habits. The idea that he must be perfectly beyond the reach of temptations for this effort to prove ethical and that failures here and there prove that his attempt at a different life were worthless, That is simply twisted. I bet no catholic here today can claim to have achieved such a feat to this degree demanded in any area or at least most areas like pride, envy, anger. Yet That dont mean we are not try to change . We are just not there yet. Why different standards for those with homosexual orientation who wish to lead a heterosexual (and chaste) lifestyle?

 

[SMGS127]

This is another notion I find curious. So a person is a porn addict or an alcoholic or addicted to cigarettes and has been undergoing therapy and hopefully spiritual guidance to change this aspect and have been successful. Never smoked for 5 years. Then one day, they are feeling bad and weak and allow themselves to be reacquainted with old smoking or drinking buddies or indulges in looking at pornographic pictures. He sins. Of course. Maybe he even requires his old addiction. Apparently, this means he was incapable of change all along? I surely think anyone who has overcome a deep addiction or strong tendency would strongly disagree. The only world in which that fellow would be immune from temptation is heaven. Here, he must be vigilant even as he overcomes his issues. If he permits himself into dangerous scenarios he will fall back to his old habits. The idea that he must be perfectly beyond the reach of temptations and that failures here and there prove that his attempt at a different life are worthless, That is simply twisted. I bet no catholic here today can claim to have achieved this feat to this degree in any area or at least most areas like pride, envy, anger. That dont mean we are not try to change . We are just not there yet.

Such a person has had a change in BEHAVIOR, not orientation. That’s the point. An alcoholic learns to stop drinking, but no one says they’re failing if they don’t stop wanting alcohol. An adulterer learns to treat his wife chastely, but no one calls him a failure if he can’t stop being attracted to women. It’s ridiculous the unique level of pressure gays are out on to change their very biology to be “normal.”

Oh and by the way, twin studies indicate it is LIKELY biological. 50% is a very high shared trait #. Twins have different teeth, fingerprints, etc. Does that mean fingerprints are malleable by thinking really hard and going to therapy? Does it mean they’re not genetically determined? Come on.

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

Such a person has had a change in BEHAVIOR, not orientation. That’s the point. An alcoholic learns to stop drinking, but no one says they’re failing if they don’t stop wanting alcohol. An adulterer learns to treat his wife chastely, but no one calls him a failure if he can’t stop being attracted to women. It’s ridiculous the unique level of pressure gays are out on to change their very biology to be “normal.”

Oh and by the way, twin studies indicate it is LIKELY biological. 50% is a very high shared trait #. Twins have different teeth, fingerprints, etc. Does that mean fingerprints are malleable by thinking really hard and going to therapy? Does it mean they’re not genetically determined? Come on.

Also 50% beats left handedness for concordance.

 

[One_point]

Such a person has had a change in BEHAVIOR, not orientation. That’s the point. An alcoholic learns to stop drinking, but no one says they’re failing if they don’t stop wanting alcohol. An adulterer learns to treat his wife chastely, but no one calls him a failure if he can’t stop being attracted to women. It’s ridiculous the unique level of pressure gays are out on to change their very biology to be “normal.”

I’m sorry, but I simply disagree. I have seen no one put this pressure on you or anyone. I have seen attempts to claim that the orientation, tendency is a good thing, and people said No. It is a tendency to sin or it is disordered. Nobody has demanded that you must be free of your weaknesses to be holy or a good Catholic. Quite the contrary. It is just this idea you are proposing that change is impossible, something I don’t see how you could be so definitive about. This I don’t understand. But we are not saying that the tendency to selfishness, lust, pride are good as long as not acted upon. Nor are we saying that they are impossible to change. How come? We cant say that, Not when Jesus demands exactly that of us. This is what I was objecting to and everyone else I have seen.

Oh and by the way, twin studies indicate it is LIKELY biological. 50% is a very high shared trait #. Twins have different teeth, fingerprints, etc. Does that mean fingerprints are malleable by thinking really hard and going to therapy? Does it mean they’re not genetically determined? Come on.

Biological, is that same as genetic? You said genetic. Even so, are you saying that there are no other causes of the orientation that could possibly be overcome at least for some gay people?

 

[pnewton]

I just found this thread. The only thing different here I would have to say is that I am impressed and admire the first poster’s openness and desire to do what is right. Too often we do not give credit to the journey another is taking in life and just look at their current position. This is a classic example of what Pope Francis meant when he said, “Who am I to judge?”

 

[Ender]

Biological, is that same as genetic? You said genetic. Even so, are you saying that there are no other causes of the orientation that could possibly be overcome at least for some gay people?

It shouldn’t be too much longer before there are studies out on the percentage of children adopted by gay/lesbian parents who themselves become gay or lesbian. I’d be willing to make a sizable bet that that percentage will be significantly higher than average. It is likely that the strongest evidence against the argument that homosexuality is merely genetic will be provided by a society acting as if that assumption was true.

Ender

 

[frobert]

It shouldn’t be too much longer before there are studies out on the percentage of children adopted by gay/lesbian parents who themselves become gay or lesbian. I’d be willing to make a sizable bet that that percentage will be significantly higher than average. It is likely that the strongest evidence against the argument that homosexuality is merely genetic will be provided by a society acting as if that assumption was true.
Ender

Sounds like you are anxiously awaiting the studies with glee. While waiting you can feast on how well of children adopted by gay/lesbian parents do.