Serious doubts about Church teaching on homosexuality

[pnewton]

Sexual orientation means one’s biological, immutable, and gendered attractions.

I think this is why there is disagreement on the issue. Not everyone agrees on the “biological” and “immutable” adjectives, at least in everyone, so not everyone believes in sexual orientation. If the science is out on either of these two issues, then the phrase itself, “sexual orientation” is subject to being challenged. I am not arguing these points here, but merely want to explain why disagreement exists.

I also note that these same two adjectives are believed by many to be true of other “orientations.” Alcoholic Anonymous teaches that alcoholism is a lifelong issue, thus the attraction immutable. There is also some evidence of biological predisposition to the addiction.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

It’s a matter of biology and knowledge of biology by the partners. Most men for example are unaware of the importance of stimulating the clitoris in getting women to orgasm. Also men have no real lasting power.

Joie, Joie, Joie!

This sounds like an objection to unmarried sex with men who don’t care about a woman. Of course it sucks!

But look – a man can be informed about the clitoris. And then, with a bit of experimentation, and watching the result on the face of his wife, he can figure out pretty quickly how to use this knowledge to his (and her) advantage.

As for lasting power, this, again, can be learned – but only learned if the man really cares about the woman. There’s no reason that a man can’t last as long as a woman.

Sorry, I didn’t mean to get into all this, but you don’t seem to be taking into account **married **sexuality.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

I was merely contesting that statement by PS that “After all, the sex habits of gay men are much more dangerous and addictive than the sex habits of lesbians” given that there was a larger delta between the enjoyability of gay sex for women and straight sex for them mutatis mutandis men.

My assertion about addiction had nothing to do with level of pleasure, though. I don’t think more pleasurable things are necessarily more addictive.

 

[frobert]

I cannot speak to the lesbian experience. But I think that, whenever one finds that some experience “excels all others”, this is a reason to immediately ask whether that experience brings one closer to God. If it does, then seek to discern the nature of the experience more precisely. If it doesn’t, diligently attempt to free yourself from the experience. But don’t stop there: find the gifting beneath your desire for this thing. Find the charism lurking behind it, and ask the Lord to help you to carry you off on the wings of this charism into His arms.

He is a lover of incomparable sensitivity, a lover finer in appearance than any man, a lover more beguiling and dextrous than any woman. He may not make us comfortable, but He will make us new. And His ecstasies are beyond compare.

Your posts are the most thought provoking ones that I have read, not just on this topic but other topics also.

 

[estesbob]

I think this is why there is disagreement on the issue. Not everyone agrees on the “biological” and “immutable” adjectives, at least in everyone, so not everyone believes in sexual orientation. If the science is out on either of these two issues, then the phrase itself, “sexual orientation” is subject to being challenged. I am not arguing these points here, but merely want to explain why disagreement exists.

I also note that these same two adjectives are believed by many to be true of other “orientations.” Alcoholic Anonymous teaches that alcoholism is a lifelong issue, thus the attraction immutable. There is also some evidence of biological predisposition to the addiction.

You are correct-there is no evidence that it is immutable or biological-in fact there is no evidence it even exists. We are born male or female. We are given the genitals of our gender and freely choose how to use it.

Although I have not seen it in this thread to often “sexual orientation” is used as a get out of jail free card. Since “orientation” is immutable and biological there is nothing wrong with acting on it. It is a quite degrading propositions-saying we are defined by our attractions .

I don’t know if Alcoholism is genetic or immutable-I just know I cant drink. I overcame my “attraction” for consuming large amounts of alcohol on a daily basis through the grace of a loving God, the help of fellow alcoholics and the regular reception of the sacraments. I can not stress enough to those who are struggling with any unhealthy attractions the importance of regular confession and reception of the Eucharist. God has a plan for us , a plan of joy and contentment. We have to turn ourselves over to him completely and watch the joy unfold in our lives.

 

[pnewton]

You are correct-there is no evidence that it is immutable or biological-in fact there is no evidence it even exists.

I think there is some evidence of both point. I think what is lacking is proof. Also, there is evidence, at least some of the mutability of orientation. Those that do not believe in sexual orientation may dismiss evidence as due to free-will. Those that do believe in sexual orientation may dismiss evidence they say is just behavior.

At this point of our understanding, I find it difficult to believe that anyone can be sure on this topic unless they have some vested interest, or bias motivation, in wanting to believes. We simply do not have enough data and what we have is somewhat divided. Since we are human, and have our own individuality, I dismiss any absolute statements as either wishful thinking or bigotry. We do not know enough.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

You are correct-there is no evidence that it is immutable or biological-in fact there is no evidence it even exists. We are born male or female. We are given the genitals of our gender and freely choose how to use it.

Although I have not seen it in this thread to often “sexual orientation” is used as a get out of jail free card. Since “orientation” is immutable and biological there is nothing wrong with acting on it. It is a quite degrading propositions-saying we are defined by our attractions .

I don’t know if Alcoholism is genetic or immutable-I just know I cant drink. I overcame my “attraction” for consuming large amounts of alcohol on a daily basis through the grace of a loving God, the help of fellow alcoholics and the regular reception of the sacraments. I can not stress enough to those who are struggling with any unhealthy attractions the importance of regular confession and reception of the Eucharist. God has a plan for us , a plan of joy and contentment. We have to turn ourselves over to him completely and watch the joy unfold in our lives.

Bob,

You say such beautiful things often, about God’s love and our ability to turn from sin. But I want you to understand that, when you write something like you wrote above, it makes me cringe a bit. There are a number of things you don’t seem to understand about the sexual experiences of people like myself. I would ask you to reflect on a few of the things I say:

(1) The comparison with alcoholism is useful in one sense, but completely useless in another. Gay people are attracted to something that is genuinely attractive in itself: a person. God made males and females to be good and attractive. (God did not make alcohol with a similar purpose.) There are some gay people that aren’t interested in gay sex in any form whatsoever, but they’re still gay – or, if you like, “same-sex attracted”.

When you compare a gay man’s desire for another man to alcoholism, you risk alienating him in an unnecessary way. Christ is a stumbling block for sinners, but WE don’t have to be.

(2) There’s nothing about the term “sexual orientation” that implies immutability. Scientists that investigate this stuff regularly report changes in people’s attraction templates – or in their “orientation”. (This is more common in women than men, but happens in men too). What scientists haven’t found is ways that we can – by trying – change a person’s orientation.

So orientations are like the wind: they change, but we can’t control them.

(3) A person could, conceivably, use an orientation as an excuse, even if the orientation could be changed – just as a teenager could use hormones as an excuse for irresponsible behavior, even though they will be less hormonally affected later in life.

Of course, such excuses amount to saying that “I can’t help myself”. If the excuse is literally true, then the person needs therapy for compulsive behavior.

(4) There is nothing about being born male that inherently entails being attracted to women. Moreover, there is reliable evidence that homosexuality, in men at least, is associated with certain conditions of the fetal environment: boys with multiple older brothers are more likely to be gay. (These studies control for the home in which the child is raised.)

 

[pnewton]

(1) The comparison with alcoholism is useful in one sense, but completely useless in another. )

This is true of all comparisons, even useful ones. I brought up alcohol only for one purpose, as an example of something that met the given definition of orientation (which immutability was one point) and to which we normally do not describe as “orientation.”

This is a hot topic because it hits people personally. This might be mitigated simply by acknowledging the legitimacy of others’ opinions.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

Also, there is evidence, at least some of the mutability of orientation.

There is significant evidence that orientation changes, in some people – for example, women who later in life become lesbian. But there is little evidence that a person can deliberately change his or her orientation – and there is much evidence to the contrary.

There is, however, great evidence that one can do certain things to sever the connection between sexual attraction and sexual action. For example, the entire history of Catholic priesthood and monasticism!

 

[Sarcelle]

What’s wrong with stoicism? In the end you have to accept your situation or you will be driven mad with anger, bitterness and sorrow. So yes, ‘suck it up’ is a good philosophy. And one can hardly compare my situation on dialysis, as tough as it was, with the horrors of crucifixion. I can only think of one thing that is common to both: thirst. I was driven insane by thirst because of fluid restriction. That’s where the similarities end. It is like comparing chalk with cheese.

Best wishes,
Padster

Personally I prefer the term"offer it up". This way, it reminds me that the center of my life is Christ, my life is not all about me, but about Christ. This has given me strength through the trials I have experienced. The term, “suck it up”, to me, will work if I feel sufficiently strong, but there are times when I am beaten down and discouraged, that I ask for Christ strength to make up for my weakness.

However, what will work for me may not work for someone else.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

This is a hot topic because it hits people personally. This might be mitigated simply by acknowledging the legitimacy of others’ opinions.

Ain’t that the truth!

 

[FormerXCatholic]

Okay, so here it is. I’m twenty-three and grew up in your perfect traditional Catholic family. My parents were loving and religious and great. I believed wholeheartedly what I was taught and adored it. And yet, before I even know what homosexuality was (because, like as good like Catholic girls, I was very sheltered), I began to feel romantic urges for girls. This began to creep on me as I grew older and by the time I was seventeen I knew, with some horror, that I had gay feelings.

I can already anticipate your reactions. No, there were no examples of homosexuality in my life. I was not sexually abused. I have healthy, normal relationships with men. You can’t pin this on anything environmental. If I had any choice at all I would have wanted to be straight. You cannot imagine the pain and suffering this has caused me, as a Catholic who wants desperately to be the daughter her parents wanted.

I spent most of my teenagerhood terrified of having close relationships with other women and suffered socially because of it. I tried desperately, and totally alone, to “pray away the gay”. My parents, who are wonderful in every way, didn’t even consider that this could happen to their children. I had no support. I was scared shitless, thanks to some very graphic church sermons and comments dropped by my family, that if anyone found out, I’d be kicked out of the house. Even if I kept my family’s love, there was no getting around that this would change things forever.

Eventually I realized, quite frankly, that my efforts were ********. It was clear that I am who I am. I cannot control my sexuality any more than I can control my love of hip hop, or the color of my eyes. We are born with some preferences, for different flavors of ice cream, and for some genders. I am not a pervert. My feelings for women are as pure and lofty as any my heterosexual friends have.

The more I prayed and tried, desperately, to understand why I am the way I am, the angrier I became. I am angry at my parents and my Church, who created a world of fear. I have spent so much of my life terrified of judgment. I have had no role models, no community, and no compassion.

The Church makes its views on homosexuality very clear. And for all you may claim to love the sinner, hate the sin, you all cannot deny that a Catholic congregation is an unfriendly place for even a celibate homosexual. You cannot deny that being open about who I am would be inviting gossip and cruelty, no matter how closely my life follows Church teachings. It would be like living under a microscope.

I’ve read this community’s responses to questions about homosexuality. I’ve read how, at the first mention of a gay man, you pry into his sexual history.

Imagine telling me at sixteen, a young girl who loved romcoms and longed for romance, that she could never have an intimate relationship. That celibacy for her was not a calling, or a vocation, but a sentence. Heterosexuals choose celibacy and it is a beautiful thing, but homosexuals have no choice. They are slated into one path and let’s be honest here. It sucks.

So yes, I’m angry. It makes it hard to go to Church, to have meaningful relationships with my family. My prayer life is strong and I try to follow God’s teachings, but I feel as if I’m hitting brick walls. I am tired of being told that my soul and body are an abomination and that I am incapable of giving romantic love.

The Catholic Church is scary for me. I wish it wasn’t.

I don’t know quite what I’m saying here, only that the more time I spend with Catholics, the more cruel comments about homosexuality slip, and the more I feel like this isn’t the place for me. This forum feels unsafe for me.

I don’t know what to do.

You are falling into a trap. Don’t believe for one second that any feeling is static and unchanging. There are good people on here telling you to just “accept who I am”. This is bad advice. Never accept the intrusion of sinful desires into your life. But you must also believe that you can change. As corny as it sounds, “praying the gay away” works and will help you minimize your homosexual thoughts.

There is no such thing as static feelings or preferences. I used to hate broccoli, now I like it. I was also “born” with an alcohol problem, now I don’t. I used to not be attracted to over weight women. Now I am. Many of these thing because I had to inorder to maintain good health.

My distant cousin was also born a pedophile, he’ll never claim that though, instead he is married with 3 happy kids and his wife trusts him. The point of all this is that God gave you 100 control of your actions and mind. Changing you mind works transitionaly through a passionate desire to change through actions.

 

[Sarcelle]

**^ THIS! ** Discretion can go a very long way! Close and trusted friends, family and one’s confessor make for the appropriate channels to “share.”

No, not really. I am straight and I do not ever talk about my relationship status or lack of one. That does not stop people from making crude speculations about my sex life. They either say that I am promiscuous or a lesbian, simply due to the fact that I do not wear a wedding ring. If they conclude that I am gay, than all the slurs start coming out of their mouths.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

You are falling into a trap. Don’t believe for one second that any feeling is static and unchanging. There are good people on here telling you to just “accept who I am”. This is bad advice. Never accept the intrusion of sinful desires into your life. But you must also believe that you can change. As corny as it sounds, “praying the gay away” works and will help you minimize your homosexual thoughts.

There is no such thing as static feelings or preferences. I used to hate broccoli, now I like it. I was also “born” with an alcohol problem, now I don’t. I used to not be attracted to over weight women. Now I am. Many of these thing because I had to inorder to maintain good health.

My distant cousin was also born a pedophile, he’ll never claim that though, instead he is married with 3 happy kids and his wife trusts him. The point of all this is that God gave you 100 control of your actions and mind. Changing you mind works transitionaly through a passionate desire to change through actions.

Well-intentioned advice. But…

I assure you had no problem accepting the fact that you liked alcohol, accepting the fact that you hated broccoli, and accepting the fact that you weren’t attracted to overweight women. Gay people, in contrast, have great difficulty accepting the fact that they are erotically attracted to people of the same sex – not to mention accepting the fact that this means “good” people will look down on them.

Speaking for myself, I am a man who is attracted to other men. It’s not the most important fact about myself, but it’s true, and I need to fully accept it. As for who I will be, or whether the attraction is permanent, that’s not something for me to determine. I’d be happy if it changes. But it’s not up to me.

 

[Sarcelle]

Compassion and respect is required of all.Do you show the same compassion and respect for the laity who disagree with you as you all them to show for homosexuals?

I have been a Catholic my whole life.I have NEVER seen the alleged vitrol thrown at homosexuals by the laity in any Parish I have been in our from any Catholic I have known.

As one who has been around here for 10 years left me give you some unsolicited advice.If these forums cause you to question your faith or cause unresolved anger and resentment towards the members off the Church you should flee them with all due haste.

Count yourself lucky. Chances are if you are not the target than you won’t see it. I am heterosexual or straight but due to a combination of my age and not being married, I am accused of being gay and have been the target of slurs.

 

[pnewton]

There is, however, great evidence that one can do certain things to sever the connection between sexual attraction and sexual action. For example, the entire history of Catholic priesthood and monasticism!

A rather good point!

Personally I prefer the term"offer it up".

My wife uses this. I use “suck it up” or “man up.” Needless to say I defer to her on this as possessing the better spiritual insight. Thank you for reminding us of words we all need to live by.

My distant cousin was also born a pedophile, he’ll never claim that though, instead he is married with 3 happy kids and his wife trusts him. The point of all this is that God gave you 100 control of your actions and mind. Changing you mind works transitionaly through a passionate desire to change through actions.

I think we have evidence here and in other places that such change can happen. I do no know that we could ever say it can happen for everyone. St. Paul said,

“Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your.”

Yet he also said,

*"Therefore, in order to keep me from becoming conceited, I was given a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me. 8 Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me. *9 But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.”

The lesson we need to learn here is that we cannot judge the walk of another. Job did not know the reasons for his suffering. His friends were condemned for judging him in his suffering. We were not around when God measured the heavens or conceived the human heart in his thought. Our task is only to live the one life we are given.

 

[FormerXCatholic]

Speaking for myself, I am a man who is attracted to other men. It’s not the most important fact about myself, but it’s true, and I need to fully accept it. As for who I will be, or whether the attraction is permanent, that’s not something for me to determine. I’d be happy if it changes. But it’s not up to me.

Actuality it is up to you and you just gave life to it by your own verbal testimony. You just told yourself via forum that “I am a man who is attracted to other men”. An object in motion stays in motion, until you vehemently oppose it and stop it beyond any life of reality beyond a light flash of thought.

 

[LongingSoul]

Actuality it is up to you and you just gave life to it by your own verbal testimony. You just told yourself via forum that “I am a man who is attracted to other men”. An object in motion stays in motion, until you vehemently oppose it and stop it beyond any life of reality beyond a light flash of thought.

This is actually supported by physics. Take for example magnets. The properties of a magnet determine the object of its natural attraction. However if forces in the environment around the magnet are significant (like great heat), the electrical force of the magnet is reduced or lost making it vulnerable to the power of a force it would naturally repel.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

This is actually supported by physics. Take for example magnets. The properties of a magnet determine the object of its natural attraction. However if forces in the environment around the magnet are significant (like great heat), the electrical force of the magnet is reduced or lost making it vulnerable to the power of a force it would naturally repel.

Uhhhhh…

So do you recommend we expose gay people to great heat, thereby causing them to swoon over people of the opposite sex?

I’m just not understanding the analogy here. Sure, things can change in extreme situations can change their properties. That does not mean the properties they began with are unreal.

Moreover, your analogy cuts against your own view. If you take a magnet out of the heat again, it will regain its natural attractions and aversions. That’s why we call them “natural”, and the great heat situation “extraordinary”.

 

[DavidPaul723]

Bless you and you are very brave for coming here and telling your story.

Firstly, you are who you are and that is homosexual. Ignore the idiots that automatically assume it must be a lifestyle you have picked up somehow. While I do think there are SOME homosexuals who it may be about nurture rather than nature this is NOT always the case and many homosexuals like yourself are born that way. You cannot change being homosexual. You will not be able to pray away being Gay. You are homosexual. We all have our crosses to bear, some are harder than others and it looks like this may be yours.

BEING homosexual is not a sin, ACTING on it is.

The problem is we live in a highly sexed culture where “sex” has been twisted completely out of its natural form and people expect to be able to have it where, when, how they want.

Yes heterosexuals can choose to be celibate (and will be obeying God either way), you still have a choice but one way obeys God and the other doesn’t.

My nephew has just been diagnosed with epilepsy, when he is older he may not be able to drive. Non epileptics get to choose, he won’t… However people are never as bothered by driving as sex.

People are born with mental health problems, deformities, no limbs all the time. There are many crosses which people have to bear. Homosexuality is no different. These people are who they are, they can’t change that.

I’m sorry your family have acted the way they are and you feel unsafe at church. They should love and respect you as a sister in Christ just like anyone else. People are mean, but that doesn’t make heir behaviour acceptable.

Imagine a baby who contracts HIV from his mother…should they live a life of celibacy or do as they please and risk passing on the virus? It’s not the child’s fault they have HIV? They didn’t ask for it, they didn’t choose it.

I guess what I am trying to say is don’t be ashamed of who you are, ignore the idiots who make you feel like you should be and it’s up to you if you want to obey God or not. It’s easy to “question” a sin when that sin affects us personally. I disobeyed God on sex before marriage but Gods law cannot be changed, it is what it is. We have free will, we decide whether to follow or not.

You are no different to any of us!

There are most certainly people who did change from a homosexual lifestyle to that of a normal heterosexual one? You didn’t even bother to offer her that.What about a compulsive gambler destroying his family’s well being or he or she is that way and cannot “change”. I guess you would say to the gamblers wife ( your words)“People are born with mental health problems, deformities, Compulsiveness to gamble for example and no limbs all the time. There are many crosses which people have to bear. Gambling is no different. These people are who they are, they can’t change that.” so there is nothing you can do by talking to them about it or help getting them priestly counseling because “they can’t change it’ ( This is lame and ridiculous) So, if his gambling causes you and the kids to end up under a bridge living in a cardboard box I guess that’s to bad for you,sorry”. Everything you said in a nutshell was " this is the way you are and you’re stuck with it so I throw up my hands because I don’t know what to do for you"! You cannot and I cannot judge the level of or depth of her compulsion towards homosexual tendencies. No matter the gravity of the compulsion to sin, God gives us enough grace to overcome them. You know, God is calling her very close to him by laying this cross upon her because he knows she can do it until the end where a true reward of great great unimaginable proportions awaits her when she crosses the finish line!!! A true soldier for Christ would not say to people they are trying to rescue " it’s up to you if you want to obey God or not.".She’s not a child, she’s looking for something real in her life by now that will deal with her weakness. That’s like saying " …about a mile down the road you will come to a split in the road where one will lead you to a hospital and the other to enemy encampments but I won’t tell you which even though I know which one" It’s true it is not a sin to be gay,but, whenever you make that statement you should remind them also to avoid the near occasion of sin for exposing yourself to the lifestyle by hanging with openly gay folks, watching videos,reading gay novels, looking at gay imagery etc…is in a sin itself. What happened to Sarah (Abraham’s wife) when they were walking away from those burning sinful cities…read it for yourself… Genesis Ch 19 verses 24 - 26…I will offer her my thought’s of what she should do directly if you care to read them.