Serious doubts about Church teaching on homosexuality

[MarkInOregon]

Hey folks!

Now PAY ATTENTION.

This thread is about a young woman who is working through her attraction to other women and her faith. It is not about winning some side argument or sounding clever. It is not about politics or claims about how awful/perfect the Church is.

This could be a place where this young woman encounters the love of Christ. Let’s not make it a place that clamors with the ugly din of self-righteousness.

Please!

Thank You.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

Respectful response to Tigg.
We just view things differently.
I cannot see any similarity between saving someone’s life by preventing that person from falling over a cliff and presuming to intrude upon another person’s personal life.
We are not here to be the custodian of others, nor to impose our views upon them.
I actually see that as presumptuous, with the implication that we are right and they are not.
Why foster the widely held but outdated impression that Catholics as a genre were smug, bigoted and intolerant. We are not. It is our duty to reach out to others with love, compassion and acceptance - as Jesus does.
God bless you.

“If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector” (Matthew 18:15-17)

So be vigilant and remember that for three years, night and day, I unceasingly admonished each of you with tears. [ACTS 20:31]

I myself am convinced about you, my brothers, that you yourselves are full of goodness, filled with all knowledge, and able to admonish one another. [ROM 15:14]

I am writing you this not to shame you, but to admonish you as my beloved children. [1COR 4:14]

If we discerned ourselves, we would not be under judgment; but since we are judged by (the) Lord, we are being disciplined so that we may not be condemned along with the world. [1COR 11:31-32]

We cause no one to stumble in anything, in order that no fault may be found with our ministry; on the contrary, in everything we commend ourselves as ministers of God, through much endurance, in afflictions, hardships, constraints, beatings, imprisonments, riots, labors, vigils, fasts; by purity, knowledge, patience, kindness, in a holy spirit, in unfeigned love, in truthful speech, in the power of God; with weapons of righteousness at the right and at the left; through glory and dishonor, insult and praise. We are treated as deceivers and yet are truthful; as unrecognized and yet acknowledged; as dying and behold we live; as chastised and yet not put to death; as sorrowful yet always rejoicing; as poor yet enriching many; as having nothing and yet possessing all things.[2COR 6:9]

Brothers, even if a person is caught in some transgression, you who are spiritual should correct that one in a gentle spirit, looking to yourself, so that you also may not be tempted. [GAL 6:1]

It is he whom we proclaim, admonishing everyone and teaching everyone with all wisdom, that we may present everyone perfect in Christ. [COL 1:28]

Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly, as in all wisdom you teach and admonish one another, singing psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs with gratitude in your hearts to God. [COL 3:16]

We ask you, brothers, to respect those who are laboring among you and who are over you in the Lord and who admonish you, and to show esteem for them with special love on account of their work. Be at peace among yourselves. We urge you, brothers, admonish the idle, cheer the fainthearted, support the weak, be patient with all. See that no one returns evil for evil; rather, always seek what is good (both) for each other and for all. [1THES 5:12-15]

If anyone does not obey our word as expressed in this letter, take note of this person not to associate with him, that he may be put to shame. Do not regard him as an enemy but admonish him as a brother. [2THES 3:14-15]

A slave of the Lord should not quarrel, but should be gentle with everyone, able to teach, tolerant, correcting opponents with kindness. It may be that God will grant them repentance that leads to knowledge of the truth, and that they may return to their senses out of the devil’s snare, where they are entrapped by him, for his will. [2TM 2:24-26]

Say these things. Exhort and correct with all authority. Let no one look down on you. [TI 2:15]

You have also forgotten the exhortation addressed to you as sons: “My son, do not disdain the discipline of the Lord or lose heart when reproved by him; for whom the Lord loves, he disciplines; he scourges every son he acknowledges.” Endure your trials as “discipline”; God treats you as sons. For what “son” is there whom his father does not discipline? If you are without discipline, in which all have shared, you are not sons but bastards. Besides this, we have had our earthly fathers to discipline us, and we respected them. Should we not (then) submit all the more to the Father of spirits and live? They disciplined us for a short time as seemed right to them, but he does so for our benefit, in order that we may share his holiness. At the time, all discipline seems a cause not for joy but for pain, yet later it brings the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who are trained by it. [HEB 12:5-11]

Those whom I love, I reprove and chastise. Be earnest, therefore, and repent. [RV 3:19]

 

[estesbob]

That’s interesting - what do you mean by “accepting” but not “affirming?” How does that play out when you’re actually interacting with your loved ones?

I realize that’s a personal question, please feel free not to answer.

Here’s some examples. If they decide to visit us we will welcome them with open arms but we will not allow them to share a bedroom. Similarly if we visit their area we would not stay with them.We are more than happy to celebrate major holidays, birthdays, etc with them but if they decide to get married we will not attend. Again the key is to accept that never affirm.

They know our feelings about their relationship and they accept us in spite of it. And we accept them in spite of our disapproval of their relationship. The best thing we can do is love them, accept them and let them observe in our lives joy of living our faith.

 

[seakelp]

Here’s some examples. If they decide to visit us we will welcome them with open arms but we will not allow them to share a bedroom. Similarly if we visit their area we would not stay with them.We are more than happy to celebrate major holidays, birthdays, etc with them but if they decide to get married we will not attend. Again the key is to accept that never affirm.

They know our feelings about their relationship and they accept us in spite of it. And we accept them in spite of our disapproval of their relationship. The best thing we can do is love them, accept them and let them observe in our lives joy of living our faith.

I think that’s a very sane way to handle the situation, thanks for sharing. I think, as you pointed out, it’s more important to show those in error the goodness that comes out of living a Christlike life than it is to point out how the others aren’t acting in a Christlike way (while still, of course, not tolerating sinfulness).

 

[Tigg]

Respectful response to Tigg.
We just view things differently.
I cannot see any similarity between saving someone’s life by preventing that person from falling over a cliff and presuming to intrude upon another person’s personal life.
We are not here to be the custodian of others, nor to impose our views upon them.
I actually see that as presumptuous, with the implication that we are right and they are not.
Why foster the widely held but outdated impression that Catholics as a genre were smug, bigoted and intolerant. We are not. It is our duty to reach out to others with love, compassion and acceptance - as Jesus does.
God bless you.

It is our duty to reach out to others with [authentic] love, compassion and Truth. I should never condemn but neither can I believe that goodness extended to my brother includes acceptance for something that would harm him.

Emily - did you actually read Gertabelle’s amazing story? She, better than any of us, can put your fallacy to bed.

(Thanks, Charlemagne!)

 

[simpleas]

Here’s some examples. If they decide to visit us we will welcome them with open arms but we will not allow them to share a bedroom. Similarly if we visit their area we would not stay with them.We are more than happy to celebrate major holidays, birthdays, etc with them but if they decide to get married we will not attend. Again the key is to accept that never affirm.

They know our feelings about their relationship and they accept us in spite of it. And we accept them in spite of our disapproval of their relationship. The best thing we can do is love them, accept them and let them observe in our lives joy of living our faith.

So people in a ss relationship can not enjoy living the faith?

 

[seakelp]

So people in a ss relationship can not enjoy living the faith?

I don’t think he was suggesting that at all.

 

[estesbob]

​

So people in a ss relationship can not enjoy living the faith?

Sin seperates of God It is hard to live the Faith if you reject it

 

[Milasol]

Yes, I returned first to practices of the faith about 8 years ago, and had a return of actual faith some months later.

Those years were the worst of my life… I don’t know if I’m still awake enough to answer your question coherently. When I first “came out” there were many people who rallied to help me come out and start living my new lifestyle. Many of those people were from my parish. They were only too happy to demonstrate their tolerance through their support of me. It’s so deeply painful to look back on that turning point in my life. Those “friends” got their merit badge of tolerance at my expense. Rather than helping me cleave to Christ – to support me on the difficult path of finding my way through my feelings – they threw me to the wolves who were only too happy to have some fresh meat to devour.

Throughout those years of living as a lesbian, I was living what should have been a great and fulfilling life. I began my teaching career, i bought my first home, I found a woman who was willing to commit her life to me and I to her, I was a successful and admired performer, etc. But I was miserable.

I truly believed I was born that way and that I had no way out. I knew that I knew that knew that I was born that way. My performances included that theme often, as well as mocking the Church and scripture. There were always those around me who called me courageous and offered their tolerance and support. But I always had what I now call “virtue envy.” I envied those who were chaste and seeking holiness, those who were in a state of grace, those who lived a faith that I had abandoned…and I daydreamed about what I increasingly desired – a life and a faith that were in sync. Even though I was attending GLBT-friendly churches (e.g., Methodist), there was a lack of moral cohesion, a lack of moral completeness. I guess I just sensed that the churches I attended had doctrines that were cherry-picked to be comfortable to the church members. And again and again, I felt like I was being used as liberals’ proof of their tolerance – like they LOVED having a lesbian around to prove how enlightened and intelligent they were.

My relationships during those years were just a series of using and being used. Even my one long-term relationship (8 years) was absolutely dreadful in that regard. In spite of so many beautiful aspects of my life during that time – teaching, in particular – those were just really, really dark days. It took witnessing my father decline and eventually die after 6 weeks in the cardiac care unit to wake me up to my life.

My ssa did NOT stop at that point, and I was still insistent that I was born a lesbian. But I wasn’t shouting it anymore. It was a long time before the ssa disappeared, and a longer time before I realized I wasn’t experiencing ssa anymore. It didn’t happen overnight, and I didn’t do anything to make it happen. Somehow, without my really noticing it, something was changing in my attitudes and beliefs about myself and my life. Whatever had caused my ssa, had been healed

Way long answers to your very simple questions, sorry.

God bless you!

Gertie

Oh my goodness, it’s just such a long story… But my

Wow incredible! I can’t believe that you are brave enough to tell us your story. I hope you don’t get backlash from anyone saying that SSA is a born trait.

I admire people like you. I think you should definitely be more vocal about your story. I learned a lot and I’m sure there are some people who can benefit from it.

I’m glad you don’t get used anymore. That is sad. I have a lot of friends who are gay however they too tell me that they don’t agree with many things that the “gay lobby” as it is commonly referred as do. And honestly I do worry where all this is going to lead our society. I just don’t see any good coming out of it. I am filled with foreboding.

 

[buffalo]

Often ssa resolves itself.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

I don’t know quite what I’m saying here, only that the more time I spend with Catholics, the more cruel comments about homosexuality slip, and the more I feel like this isn’t the place for me. This forum feels unsafe for me.

I don’t know what to do.

You may not be ready for this forum.

If you have come here looking for affirmation of your lifestyle, you knew of course that you would not find many people agreeing to that, and some people not agreeing rather forcefully. This is not a place to look for rampant political correctness. What you ought to be getting here is not affirmation, but understanding and encouragement that you find your way back to loving rather than fearing the Church.

The Church does not condemn homosexuals as such for their psychological attachments to each other. What the Church condemns is sodomy. So long as you have a loving relationship with another same-sex person, but don’t act on it, there is no reason for you to feel threatened by the Church or by the prospect of offending God. You should be able to go to church regularly, receive the sacraments, and live a holy life along with others aspiring to that. This means there should be no fear in your heart.

Not everyone gets to that place in their life at the same pace. St. Augustine certainly took his time getting there. I was in my fifties before I found my way back into the Church because I had learned there was no reason to fear her and there were plenty of reasons to love her.

This is what the Church teaches: God forgives, and only in that forgiveness is the prospect of joy.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

What the Church condemns is sodomy. So long as you have a loving relationship with another same-sex person, but don’t act on it, there is no reason for you to feel threatened by the Church or by the prospect of offending God.

The implication is that the Church does threaten people who act on same-sex attraction. But that is not true. The Church educates and exhorts and guides such people, but it does not threaten them. Yes, such people may *feel *threatened by the Church, but the Church is not the one doing the threatening – no more than Jesus was threatening the woman at the well, no more than the Father was threatening the Prodigal Son.

Sadly, some individual Catholics do threaten. They have already received their reward.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

Wow incredible! I can’t believe that you are brave enough to tell us your story. I hope you don’t get backlash from anyone saying that SSA is a born trait.

I admire people like you. I think you should definitely be more vocal about your story. I learned a lot and I’m sure there are some people who can benefit from it.

This is true, and I’m always glad when Gertabelle shares her story.

However, we need to be careful not to set up Gertabelle’s story as a paradigm, and try to fit everyone else into that paradigm. It’s likely enough that some people have stronger SSA than she had, and there is no theological basis to assume that no one is “born that way”. (For example, sons with older brothers are more likely to become gay, and there appears to be a genetic/epigenetic cause for this).

The important thing is that, whatever our temptations, we can wholeheartedly follow God and reject sin.

 

[Abu]

Prodigal_Son #131
Infallibility has NOTHING to do with any particular moral teaching. A person can accept the teaching and its reasons while rejecting infallibility. Moreover, as John Henry Newman said, emphasis on infallibility is a TERRIBLE evangelistic strategy.
If the Church always spoke clearly, and it was always clear WHO the Church was, then Jesus would not have warned us about false prophets. The fact that He did warn us seems to indicate that He wants us to discern these things for ourselves.

The Church always teaches Her doctrines clearly, and She has been clearly established by Christ on His Supreme Vicar and His Apostles.
Since Christ emphasised “He that hears you hears Me” the moral doctrines taught by His Magisterium carry His authority.

#136
But the wrongness of gay sex has nothing to do with any specific teachings of the Christian faith. It is available to natural reason, unaided by faith.

Christ established His Church to teach in His Name precisely because reason and intent have been harmed by the Fall and so many fail to exercise sound reason.

The intellect, when clouded by sin, cannot be trusted to make accurate judgments.

Precisely, which shows that reason alone can, and often is, imperfect.

There are no such things as “mere opinions”. Opinions are true or false. I believe that the Church’s opinion that gay sex is wrong is a TRUE opinion, and this is why I don’t engage in gay sex. It is a hard teaching for me, but I accept it.

Incorrect.

"OPINION. Assent of the mind to a probable position, without certainly excluding its contradictory as untrue. Also a conclusion that rests on probable but not certain proof. (Etym. Latin opinio, from opinari, to think.)"
Modern Catholic Dictionary by Fr. John A. Hardon, S.J.

Doubt and Difficulty
“A negative doubt is a close relation to ignorance. An opinion is an assent of the mind but with a well-founded fear that the opposite may be true.” With an unhealthy doubt, “a person suspends judgment even when the evidence is conclusive and completely adequate. This is skepticism, intellectual cowardice……A difficulty is a problem, a not-seeing how two realities fit together….a situation we do not yet understand and perhaps will never understand. It is a limitation on our knowledge, a passing or permanent limitation.”

John Henry Cardinal Newman said “ten thousand difficulties do not make one doubt, as I understand the subject; difficulty and doubt are incommensurate.” (Apologia pro vita Sua). [Fr Thomas Dubay, *Faith And Certitude, Ignatius Press, 1995. p 82-4].

 

[Prodigal_Son]

The Church always teaches Her doctrines clearly, and She has been clearly established by Christ on His Supreme Vicar and His Apostles.
Since Christ emphasised “He that hears you hears Me” the moral doctrines taught by His Magisterium carry His authority.

Of course. I never denied any of that.

But if a person does not accept Christ’s authority, or the Church’s authority, you cannot convince them by appealing to that authority. As Aquinas said, arguments from authority are the weakest form of argument.

Christ established His Church to teach in His Name precisely because reason and intent have been harmed by the Fall and so many fail to exercise sound reason.

Agreed. But telling them “because the Church said so” is not going to magically convince their clouded reason. :dts:

Precisely, which shows that reason alone can, and often is, imperfect.

Hence the fact that most people come to Christ through relationships, not through reasoning. But bad evangelism can keep them away from Christ.

"OPINION. Assent of the mind to a probable position, without certainly excluding its contradictory as untrue. Also a conclusion that rests on probable but not certain proof. (Etym. Latin opinio, from opinari, to think.)"
Modern Catholic Dictionary by Fr. John A. Hardon, S.J.

Well sure, under this definition of “opinion”, I agree with you. But the ordinary philosophical definition of “opinion” that I’m familiar with is just “belief”. Thus, I have the opinion that 2+2=4, though of course I know that it’s certainly true.

At any rate, we’re just disagreeing about semantics here. No big deal.

Doubt and Difficulty
“A negative doubt is a close relation to ignorance. An opinion is an assent of the mind but with a well-founded fear that the opposite may be true.” With an unhealthy doubt, “a person suspends judgment even when the evidence is conclusive and completely adequate. This is skepticism, intellectual cowardice……A difficulty is a problem, a not-seeing how two realities fit together….a situation we do not yet understand and perhaps will never understand. It is a limitation on our knowledge, a passing or permanent limitation.”

John Henry Cardinal Newman said “ten thousand difficulties do not make one doubt, as I understand the subject; difficulty and doubt are incommensurate.” (Apologia pro vita Sua). [Fr Thomas Dubay, *Faith And Certitude

, Ignatius Press, 1995. p 82-4].

I don’t understand what your point is here.

My point is all about evangelism. I highly recommend you read a few books on evangelism before you dismiss what I am saying out of hand. I’m quite sure there aren’t any books on evangelism that recommend we start by asserting dogmatically that the Church is right about everything.

 

[Milasol]

This is true, and I’m always glad when Gertabelle shares her story.

However, we need to be careful not to set up Gertabelle’s story as a paradigm, and try to fit everyone else into that paradigm. It’s likely enough that some people have stronger SSA than she had, and there is no theological basis to assume that no one is “born that way”. (For example, sons with older brothers are more likely to become gay, and there appears to be a genetic/epigenetic cause for this).

The important thing is that, whatever our temptations, we can wholeheartedly follow God and reject sin.

I think many are born with many things… An alcoholic is many times born that way, mostly. However, it does affect that person if they drink. And that is why I think the Church’s teaching of being celibate in the case of homosexuality is perfect. It doesn’t help them to act. It is ultimately not good for them.

Though now I think that the entire homosexual dilemma is affecting everyone in society especially the young. And ;not because it is treated as just another issue to tackle but because the same homosexual movement (not all of course) claims and pushes political interest. That is why there is a huge debacle and struggle on both sides.

If the gay agenda, as they put it, was just to be left alone and not be judged then we wouldn’t be in this mess. It is when pushing a sexual agenda on kids, forcing Churches to marry them, pretending to get special treatment, using judges to override legislative state powers, etc is what I have a problem with. And that’s when I say stop. When people tell the “gay movement” to stop forcing their lifestyle on our lives is when some liberals and gays feel threatened.
None of that would happen if they would also respect others. It is mutual.

I never had a problem with other people’s problems. I never judged before until I became aware of their impositions.

They also lived happier.

Of course they are not all like that. I personally know many gay folks who don’t agree with the agenda. I also have a brother who after many years of leaving the Church and living the gay life, returned and is not celibate. He tells me that this life is way happier than his old life. He tells me that he doesn’t feel attracted to women but that being with Jesus Christ is way better than to be with any man out there. That Jesus Christ is the only love we should be worried about. He is celibate because he knows is what Jesus would want. He doesn’t try to adjust what God taught us but he adjusts his life according to Him. In the end we are here to cultivate for eternity and not worry about matters of the flesh or even human love.

 

[esieffe]

Bless you and you are very brave for coming here and telling your story.

Firstly, you are who you are and that is homosexual. Ignore the idiots that automatically assume it must be a lifestyle you have picked up somehow. While I do think there are SOME homosexuals who it may be about nurture rather than nature this is NOT always the case and many homosexuals like yourself are born that way. You cannot change being homosexual. You will not be able to pray away being Gay. You are homosexual. We all have our crosses to bear, some are harder than others and it looks like this may be yours.

BEING homosexual is not a sin, ACTING on it is.

The problem is we live in a highly sexed culture where “sex” has been twisted completely out of its natural form and people expect to be able to have it where, when, how they want.

Yes heterosexuals can choose to be celibate (and will be obeying God either way), you still have a choice but one way obeys God and the other doesn’t.

My nephew has just been diagnosed with epilepsy, when he is older he may not be able to drive. Non epileptics get to choose, he won’t… However people are never as bothered by driving as sex.

People are born with mental health problems, deformities, no limbs all the time. There are many crosses which people have to bear. Homosexuality is no different. These people are who they are, they can’t change that.

I’m sorry your family have acted the way they are and you feel unsafe at church. They should love and respect you as a sister in Christ just like anyone else. People are mean, but that doesn’t make heir behaviour acceptable.

Imagine a baby who contracts HIV from his mother…should they live a life of celibacy or do as they please and risk passing on the virus? It’s not the child’s fault they have HIV? They didn’t ask for it, they didn’t choose it.

I guess what I am trying to say is don’t be ashamed of who you are, ignore the idiots who make you feel like you should be and it’s up to you if you want to obey God or not. It’s easy to “question” a sin when that sin affects us personally. I disobeyed God on sex before marriage but Gods law cannot be changed, it is what it is. We have free will, we decide whether to follow or not.

You are no different to any of us!

This is perhaps the very best discussion on this topic I have read on CAF.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

I think many are born with many things… An alcoholic is many times born that way, mostly. However, it does affect that person if they drink. And that is why I think the Church’s teaching of being celibate in the case of homosexuality is perfect. It doesn’t help them to act. It is ultimately not good for them.

Though now I think that the entire homosexual dilemma is affecting everyone in society especially the young. And ;not because it is treated as just another issue to tackle but because the same homosexual movement (not all of course) claims and pushes political interest. That is why there is a huge debacle and struggle on both sides.

But the same-sex attracted CHILDREN of straight Christians are the ones who get caught in the crossfire. All they hear is their parents and such condemning gay people left and right. (The parents, of course, don’t know their kids are attracted to people of the same sex, so they don’t think to stop). And these children hear the gay-affirming crowd happily welcoming them. It’s no shocker that such children often reject the Church.

And it is not always because of their sins, but because of the sins of members of the Church – who are supposed to be showing love and compassion.

 

[Milasol]

But the same-sex attracted CHILDREN of straight Christians are the ones who get caught in the crossfire. All they hear is their parents and such condemning gay people left and right. (The parents, of course, don’t know their kids are attracted to people of the same sex, so they don’t think to stop). And these children hear the gay-affirming crowd happily welcoming them. It’s no shocker that such children often reject the Church.

And it is not always because of their sins, but because of the sins of members of the Church – who are supposed to be showing love and compassion.

Well that is a bit judgmental on your part. I believe what you said is a typical meme from the left agenda. And in terms of a crowd happily welcoming them" is not so quite true. In many instances, especially today, they are used for political agenda pushers.

I have done many bad things in my life and my mother used to tell me I would go to hell constantly. She would insert little religious stamps, relics, and medals under my bed. She would throw holy water at me. That drove me away from the Church during my teenage years and only because I was rebelling against her. However, one will respond to the unconditional love of the parents way more than the strange crowd that welcomes you, for the most part for their own satisfaction.

Love is what conquers all. And love doesn’t mean to tell a person he/she is always right.
The Church doesn’t tell us we are right if we are committing adultery. She welcomes us and provides us with the means for salvation and so do the parents even though you think that cursing homosexuality will trump over the unconditional love of a parent.

And I think many will accuse Christians of not being loving and compassionate precisely because they don’t tell the alcoholic to go and have a beer.

 

[Gertabelle]

This is true, and I’m always glad when Gertabelle shares her story.

However, we need to be careful not to set up Gertabelle’s story as a paradigm, and try to fit everyone else into that paradigm. It’s likely enough that some people have stronger SSA than she had, and there is no theological basis to assume that no one is “born that way”. (For example, sons with older brothers are more likely to become gay, and there appears to be a genetic/epigenetic cause for this).

The important thing is that, whatever our temptations, we can wholeheartedly follow God and reject sin.

:clapping:

Yes, indeed!

I share my story to be just one voice of hope – but I have absolutely nothing to say about how my experience compares to others. And I also have no recommendations for how to “cure” others. I did NOTHING to intentionally change my desires. Even looking back, it’s difficult for me to connect the dots, as it were, as to how I went from an I-was-born-this-way woman with ssa to an I-am-disgusted-by-the-thought-of-that woman with no ssa.

God’s grace. As St. Therese said, it’s all grace, baby. (slightly paraphrased).

And as you say, the important thing is for each of us to seek and follow Christ, regardless of our personal inclinations to sin. All for Jesus!

God bless you!

Gertie