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mlz
Guest
As a mother my heart goes out to you. (as do my prayers)
mlz
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mlz
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sirach2v4
Guest
Catechism of the Catholic Church, para 1735
1735 Imputability and responsibility for an action can be diminished or even nullified by ignorance, inadvertence, duress, fear, habit, inordinate attachments, and other psychological or social factors.
If the sexual orientation to the same-sex is not a psychological “factor,” then I’ll eat my catechism. This paragraph is part of the deposit of faith, the same deposit of faith that asserts that homosexual acts are “grave matter.”
I think the technical issue of even acting out of homosexual acts easily falls into this category of diminished or nullified responsibility – because a person has no freedom to choose the alternate.
Our blessed Lord said that some have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of God, and perhaps this is what he is talking about. It’s not a matter of physical mutilation, as much as it is a personality transformation. Perhaps the issue is not coming out as gay, but rather the religious issue of coming out as chaste, and living chastely.
I too am tired of hearing the relentless condemnation of homosexuality – as you seldom if ever hear the same about fornication or adultery or coveting or bearing false witness, etc. other deadly sins – not raising your children properly.
And, how often – if ever – do we hear anybody sing the praises of virginity, perpetual virginity, or chastity? Do we have any saints who are explicit role models of homosexual chastity? – it’s treated as an oxymoron, at best.
We need to look at the glass as half full, and not half empty. And, we need to be forgiving, as 1735 says we should be, for people who cannot hold up perfectly under the enormous pressure. If it is anything, 1735 is a statement of God’s mercy and a model for our forgiving of others.
We don’t have people living on Mars yet, and we don’t have a cure for homosexuality. But, I’m looking for both of those in my lifetime.
1735 Imputability and responsibility for an action can be diminished or even nullified by ignorance, inadvertence, duress, fear, habit, inordinate attachments, and other psychological or social factors.
If the sexual orientation to the same-sex is not a psychological “factor,” then I’ll eat my catechism. This paragraph is part of the deposit of faith, the same deposit of faith that asserts that homosexual acts are “grave matter.”
I think the technical issue of even acting out of homosexual acts easily falls into this category of diminished or nullified responsibility – because a person has no freedom to choose the alternate.
Our blessed Lord said that some have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of God, and perhaps this is what he is talking about. It’s not a matter of physical mutilation, as much as it is a personality transformation. Perhaps the issue is not coming out as gay, but rather the religious issue of coming out as chaste, and living chastely.
I too am tired of hearing the relentless condemnation of homosexuality – as you seldom if ever hear the same about fornication or adultery or coveting or bearing false witness, etc. other deadly sins – not raising your children properly.
And, how often – if ever – do we hear anybody sing the praises of virginity, perpetual virginity, or chastity? Do we have any saints who are explicit role models of homosexual chastity? – it’s treated as an oxymoron, at best.
We need to look at the glass as half full, and not half empty. And, we need to be forgiving, as 1735 says we should be, for people who cannot hold up perfectly under the enormous pressure. If it is anything, 1735 is a statement of God’s mercy and a model for our forgiving of others.
We don’t have people living on Mars yet, and we don’t have a cure for homosexuality. But, I’m looking for both of those in my lifetime.
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Milasol
Guest
While for some might fall into the diminished or nullified responsibility, not all are like that.
We can’t say all sins fall into that category. That is quite a stretch.
And everyone has freedom to choose not to sin. The Church doesn’t say that one must marry the opposite sex but that one must not act disorderly.
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Gertabelle
Guest
My goodness, how difficult it is for us mere mortals to stay on the topic presented by the OP. 
Perhaps those of you wanting to discuss other topics should start another thread?
Any-who, couldn’t read through all of the messages, and need to keep this short, but just wanted to reply to the OP.
In the early 90s I determined that I was a lesbian. I was a Catholic and decided I needed leave the Church to live “the way God made me.” It led to the worst years of my life – over ten years of moving in and out of relationships, finally staying in one for eight years, including a “commitment ceremony” and coming out to my extended family, etc. I marched in the parades, and sang at the rallies, and performed in the variety shows, and spoke to reporters, yada, yada, yada. I was “born that way” and so on.
Life went on like this for about ten years, and then through a series of life-changing events, including the death of my father, I left my 8 year relationship with a woman and entered a civil marriage with a childhood friend (male). We had a child together, and then just after our 4th wedding anniversary, he decided he didn’t want to be married. So we divorced and he has remained single ever since (some 7 years now).
That’s when I really noticed something new in myself – I had absolutely no SSA at all… none… zilch… nada. Somehow, the woman who had marched in parades and shouted in rallies and spoken to reporters, somehow, now had no SSA at all. In other words, I clearly had NOT been born that way.
So what does all that mean? Just that sometimes people really believe something to be absolutely 100% true, only to discover later that maybe things weren’t how they seemed.
I pray and offer sacrifices constantly for those who have SSA, both those (like me) who leave the Church because of it, and those who practice celibate chastity. You, dear Noamily, are in that group, even though I never heard of you until today.
I really have no more time to write. God bless you!!!
Gertie
Perhaps those of you wanting to discuss other topics should start another thread?Any-who, couldn’t read through all of the messages, and need to keep this short, but just wanted to reply to the OP.
In the early 90s I determined that I was a lesbian. I was a Catholic and decided I needed leave the Church to live “the way God made me.” It led to the worst years of my life – over ten years of moving in and out of relationships, finally staying in one for eight years, including a “commitment ceremony” and coming out to my extended family, etc. I marched in the parades, and sang at the rallies, and performed in the variety shows, and spoke to reporters, yada, yada, yada. I was “born that way” and so on.
Life went on like this for about ten years, and then through a series of life-changing events, including the death of my father, I left my 8 year relationship with a woman and entered a civil marriage with a childhood friend (male). We had a child together, and then just after our 4th wedding anniversary, he decided he didn’t want to be married. So we divorced and he has remained single ever since (some 7 years now).
That’s when I really noticed something new in myself – I had absolutely no SSA at all… none… zilch… nada. Somehow, the woman who had marched in parades and shouted in rallies and spoken to reporters, somehow, now had no SSA at all. In other words, I clearly had NOT been born that way.
So what does all that mean? Just that sometimes people really believe something to be absolutely 100% true, only to discover later that maybe things weren’t how they seemed.
I pray and offer sacrifices constantly for those who have SSA, both those (like me) who leave the Church because of it, and those who practice celibate chastity. You, dear Noamily, are in that group, even though I never heard of you until today.
I really have no more time to write. God bless you!!!
Gertie
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Prodigal_Son
Guest
Your interpretation is insulting to gay people. It implies that they’re not capable of refraining from sex.
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Milasol
Guest
I hope you don’t mind me asking, but…My goodness, how difficult it is for us mere mortals to stay on the topic presented by the OP.
Any-who, couldn’t read through all of the messages, and need to keep this short, but just wanted to reply to the OP.
In the early 90s I determined that I was a lesbian. I was a Catholic and decided I needed leave the Church to live “the way God made me.” It led to the worst years of my life – over ten years of moving in and out of relationships, finally staying in one for eight years, including a “commitment ceremony” and coming out to my extended family, etc. I marched in the parades, and sang at the rallies, and performed in the variety shows, and spoke to reporters, yada, yada, yada. I was “born that way” and so on.
Life went on like this for about ten years, and then through a series of life-changing events, including the death of my father, I left my 8 year relationship with a woman and entered a civil marriage with a childhood friend (male). We had a child together, and then just after our 4th wedding anniversary, he decided he didn’t want to be married. So we divorced and he has remained single ever since (some 7 years now).
That’s when I really noticed something new in myself – I had absolutely no SSA at all… none… zilch… nada. Somehow, the woman who had marched in parades and shouted in rallies and spoken to reporters, somehow, now had no SSA at all. In other words, I clearly had NOT been born that way.
So what does all that mean? Just that sometimes people really believe something to be absolutely 100% true, only to discover later that maybe things weren’t how they seemed.
I pray and offer sacrifices constantly for those who have SSA, both those (like me) who leave the Church because of it, and those who practice celibate chastity. You, dear Noamily, are in that group, even though I never heard of you until today.
I really have no more time to write. God bless you!!!
Gertie
are you back in the Church?
and why do you say those were the worst years of your life?
How convinced were you that you were born that way as you put it?
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Abu
Guest
Surely it is time to ditch the broken record and to realise that the Church has never taught any dogma or doctrine which has been in error, and never changed Her moral teaching. Get real.
All this poster is about is ridicule and ignoring facts. God was very clear: “Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise acted immorally and indulged in unnatural lust, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire . . .” (Jude 7).
Christ’s Church teaches re those with the homosexual disorder:
CCC 2358: They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.
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epan
Guest
I wouldn’t suggest that one, “go it alone”. Spiritual guidance is vital. But I must disagree with the idea of the infallibility of an institution of any sort. When one considers the history, the notion of infallibility is (pardon me) truly laughable.
My point is obviously Protestant. Individual experience and conscience does matter as much as anything else.
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epan
Guest
Oh really? How about antisemitism, money lending, slavery, changing opinions on dissolution of marriage, treatment of heretics… and so on. Before you offer me such sage advice, look at the foundation that you stand on.
As for a broken record, how about the false statement, repeated incessantly, as if from a position of insecurity and uncertainty, that the church has never changed moral doctrine. That statement is patently false. Go ahead and tell me it isn’t, if you want to sound like a broken record.
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Milasol
Guest
Can you show me exactly how the doctrines changed in terms of antisemitism, money lending, slavery, marriage, treatment of heretics.
I want to see the doctrines of the Church and not how we humans behaved in it please. Thanks.
Show me the catechism of the Church in terms of what you mentioned and how they have changed.
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naomily
Guest
K guys, you can all keep going with… whatever this is… but I’m out. I don’t think following this thread is conducive to my mental health or my relationship with God right now.
I’ll keep you all in my prayers and would appreciate the same.
I’ll keep you all in my prayers and would appreciate the same.
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Abu
Guest
epan can never offer facts on anything, much less moral teaching. Don’t hold your breath.
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Milasol
Guest
Will pray for you tonight.
If you want to pray for me that would be great too.
I am a new here and don’t know who these forums work so much yet so I apologize if I didn’t follow the conversation. I was just repsonding to someone. I just read your post.
Very brave to post it. Will ask God to give you more grace and you do the same for me if you can. Thx.
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Gertabelle
Guest
Yes, I returned first to practices of the faith about 8 years ago, and had a return of actual faith some months later.
Those years were the worst of my life… I don’t know if I’m still awake enough to answer your question coherently. When I first “came out” there were many people who rallied to help me come out and start living my new lifestyle. Many of those people were from my parish. They were only too happy to demonstrate their tolerance through their support of me. It’s so deeply painful to look back on that turning point in my life. Those “friends” got their merit badge of tolerance at my expense. Rather than helping me cleave to Christ – to support me on the difficult path of finding my way through my feelings – they threw me to the wolves who were only too happy to have some fresh meat to devour.
Throughout those years of living as a lesbian, I was living what should have been a great and fulfilling life. I began my teaching career, i bought my first home, I found a woman who was willing to commit her life to me and I to her, I was a successful and admired performer, etc. But I was miserable.
I truly believed I was born that way and that I had no way out. I knew that I knew that knew that I was born that way. My performances included that theme often, as well as mocking the Church and scripture. There were always those around me who called me courageous and offered their tolerance and support. But I always had what I now call “virtue envy.” I envied those who were chaste and seeking holiness, those who were in a state of grace, those who lived a faith that I had abandoned…and I daydreamed about what I increasingly desired – a life and a faith that were in sync. Even though I was attending GLBT-friendly churches (e.g., Methodist), there was a lack of moral cohesion, a lack of moral completeness. I guess I just sensed that the churches I attended had doctrines that were cherry-picked to be comfortable to the church members. And again and again, I felt like I was being used as liberals’ proof of their tolerance – like they LOVED having a lesbian around to prove how enlightened and intelligent they were.
My relationships during those years were just a series of using and being used. Even my one long-term relationship (8 years) was absolutely dreadful in that regard. In spite of so many beautiful aspects of my life during that time – teaching, in particular – those were just really, really dark days. It took witnessing my father decline and eventually die after 6 weeks in the cardiac care unit to wake me up to my life.
My ssa did NOT stop at that point, and I was still insistent that I was born a lesbian. But I wasn’t shouting it anymore. It was a long time before the ssa disappeared, and a longer time before I realized I wasn’t experiencing ssa anymore. It didn’t happen overnight, and I didn’t do anything to make it happen. Somehow, without my really noticing it, something was changing in my attitudes and beliefs about myself and my life. Whatever had caused my ssa, had been healed
Way long answers to your very simple questions, sorry.
God bless you!
Gertie
Oh my goodness, it’s just such a long story… But my
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Prodigal_Son
Guest
But this thread is not about infallibility. Even if a certain number of the Church’s teachings were not infallible, they could still be true. This thread is about whether the teaching on homosexuality is true.
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Emily2014
Guest
Naomily, I’m so sorry. We all let you down.
God bless you and grant you the peace and happiness you so richly deserve.:imsorry:
God bless you and grant you the peace and happiness you so richly deserve.:imsorry:
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Contra_Mundum_1
Guest
Gertabelle,
Thank you for sharing your story. I have ceased to believe that people like you exist due to the secular propaganda on human sexuality. This just shows that things are not as fixed as they would like us to believe.
I am wondering about something. Do you think that it makes a difference when people try to help us stay close to Christ when we have embarked upon a journey that goes in an opposite direction? Looking back, do you think you would have made an effort to stick to what the faith teaches if you had genuine support in the church? From personal experience and witnessing so many people do the same thing I have come to believe that we tend to leave the church when the teachings go against our desires. This thread has shown just that: people talk about holiness, embracing the cross, trusting God - the real Catholic stuff - and the OP declares such talk is bad for her mental health and her relationship with God. I just wonder if we can actually help someone stay close to God without compromising on our faith and morals, or if only God can perform the miracle of softening the heart and pulling the person back.to the fold. Like what happened to you after years of being away.
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Prodigal_Son
Guest
That is ABSOLUTELY NOT what has happened. The last 3-4 pages of this thread has not consisted of people talking about holiness, the cross, or God at all. It has been people arguing about whether the Church ever makes mistakes, complaining about gay people, complaining about Christians, and altogether making a nuisance of themselves.
I assure you, Naomily did not bow out of the conversation because people were asking her to prayerfully consider whether God is asking her to be chaste.
Sadly, your post seems to indicate that you only hear what you expect to hear. All I have seen from Naomily in this conversation is that she is earnestly seeking the truth. When people in the thread started talking nonsense, and saying (even unintentionally) unhelpful negative things about gay people – like the suggestion that they can’t help themselves and aren’t capable of celibacy – Naomily found this unhelpful, and bowed out.
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Tigg
Guest
You have a peculiar idea about “LOVE” and it does not imply, as you seem to think, that He will ever affirm us in sin. God is love and He is also perfect in His other attributes. Because He is the Good Shepherd He will tell us when the wolf approaches. And this is the rub, isn’t it, with those who tout tolerance and a “live and let live” attitude. To admonish the sinner is a spiritual act of mercy. Why is it so hard to understand Christians look forward to an eternal life of happiness and the hope of salvation; the temporary state of being in this world is secondary and if someone is in jeopardy of losing their life - to not warn them is cruelty - it certainly isn’t love. Lord, save me from my passive “friends” who would let me fall off a cliff before they tell me it is there.
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Tigg
Guest
It is also insulting to God as if to say His grace is NOT sufficient to heal and to save.
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