Serious doubts about Church teaching on homosexuality

[estesbob]

The Catholic Church has been wrong on some issues in the past. How is one to know which of the current teachings are true, and which are false? Or, has something fundamentally changed?

And what issues were those?

 

[estesbob]

Oh dear,
Why oh why does everyone continually rant about sin. Why can we not leave other peoples private relationships alone. Why does anyone feel there is a God-given Catholic right for us to presume to suggest that anyone is in sinful or impure relationships. What a cheek!
God is LOVE. Why do we feel the need to ‘save’ others from sin. Let us look to ourselves and leave the private lives of others to Our Lord, who is love personified and told us to ‘Love one another as I have loved you’

Mainly because that is what the OP asked about.

 

[lutheran_farmer]

OP, I have no advice. No words of wisdom. Just hugs.

I wish you could know how much most people would love you and welcome you. Please remember the incredible depth of God’s love for you; just as you are.

I’m sorry you have this cross to bear. If you were in my parish, I would welcome you as a friend and treat you like family.

 

[rossum]

Why are you saying this when you don’t even believe in God?

First, AIUI it is standard Christian doctrine that all humans are made in God’s image. Hence God must, to some degree, be the image of humans. If A resembles B, then B must resemble A.

Second, there are a great many gods in Buddhism, tens of thousands of them. Here is one of them:

“I am the Brahma, the great Brahma, the conqueror, the unconquered, the all-seeing, the subjector of all to his wishes, the omnipotent, the maker, the creator, the supreme, the controller, the one confirmed in the practice of jhana, and father to all that have been and shall be.” (emphasis added)

– Digha Nikaya 1, Brahmajala sutta, 42

How many omnipotent, supreme creator gods are there?

rossum

 

[rossum]

And what issues were those?

Off the top of my head I can think of allowing slavery, killing witches, killing heretics and geocentrism. The first two and the last have Biblical support. I’m not sure about the third.

rossum

 

[Milasol]

Off the top of my head I can think of allowing slavery, killing witches, killing heretics and geocentrism. The first two and the last have Biblical support. I’m not sure about the third.

rossum

Somehow I don’t think you know what the bible says.

Slavery? So paid workers are slaves?

Killing is condemned all throughout the bible.

I recently read the story of Athet Pyan Shinthaw Palau. A Buddhist monk in Myanmar (Burma). I recommend anyone read it.

 

[estesbob]

Off the top of my head I can think of allowing slavery, killing witches, killing heretics and geocentrism. The first two and the last have Biblical support. I’m not sure about the third.

rossum

The Church never killed Herectics, never burned witches and never “allowed” slavery". Geocentrism has nothing whatsoever to do with faith and Morals

Nice try though-you should also try and work in the crusades, the inquisition and Nuns throwing dead babies in septic tanks.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

Hey folks!

Now PAY ATTENTION.

This thread is about a young woman who is working through her attraction to other women and her faith. It is not about winning some side argument or sounding clever. It is not about politics or claims about how awful/perfect the Church is.

This could be a place where this young woman encounters the love of Christ. Let’s not make it a place that clamors with the ugly din of self-righteousness.

Please!

 

[estesbob]

Hey folks!

Now PAY ATTENTION.

This thread is about a young woman who is working through her attraction to other women and her faith. It is not about winning some side argument or sounding clever. It is not about politics or claims about how awful/perfect the Church is.

This could be a place where this young woman encounters the love of Christ. Let’s not make it a place that clamors with the ugly din of self-righteousness.

Please!

Good advice. Hope SMG drops by. I will now bow out

 

[Starrsmother]

I don’t think I could say something like that to my daughter. I hope you have other, more loving things to tell her as well.

As I said in my post, I tell her I love her continuously. She is at the stage where everytime she sees an article in Huff Post where a Catholic (???) politician or star makes an anti Catholic pronouncement, she makes sure it is e-mailed to me. I make no apology for what I said to her. At present, there are a lot of so called Catholics in high positions who cause the church much trouble by claiming to be Catholic while actually they are anything but Catholic and are promoting, homosexuality, gay marriage, abortion and so on. My daughter lives in a secular world where nobody among her friends even really believes in sin–much less hell or purgatory. I just remind her sometimes that she may be wrong—and if she is, the price she’ll pay is pretty serious and that the same is true for all her political heroes!

 

[rossum]

The Church never killed Herectics

Bwahahaha! Tell that to Jan Hus and many others. Were the executioners Catholic? Did the Church condemn their work? Did it tell them to stop? Did it tell the Inquisition not to hand its prisoners over to the secular arm?

never burned witches

So it killed them in other ways. How many witches died in Catholic Europe before 1500?

and never “allowed” slavery"

Erm… Dum Diversas of Nicholas I (1452):

“We grant you [Kings of Spain and Portugal] by these present documents, with our Apostolic Authority, full and free permission to invade, search out, capture, and subjugate the Saracens and pagans and any other unbelievers and enemies of Christ wherever they may be, as well as their kingdoms, duchies, counties, principalities, and other property …] and to reduce their persons into perpetual servitude.”

Geocentrism has nothing whatsoever to do with faith and Morals

Agreed, but it was supported by the Church and was an error. Copernicus’ book was on the Index for many years.

Nice try though-you should also try and work in the crusades, the inquisition and Nuns throwing dead babies in septic tanks.

You aren’t paying attention, I did indirectly mention the inquisition.

rossum

 

[Charlemagne_III]

I wish you could know how much most people would love you and welcome you. Please remember the incredible depth of God’s love for you; just as you are.

God loves us all just as we are, but God wants for us to be better than we are.

Complacency is not a virtue. We should all be ashamed of our sins and struggle to overcome them.

Without shame there is only pride and rebellion.

God love us all and give us the strength to resist sin and the wisdom and courage to urge our friends to resist temptation without presuming to be better than they are.

 

[mlz]

I am not homosexual but want to offer a few thoughts about sin generally.

It always strikes me how homosexuals insist that their sin is special and needs a different approach. Of course, it is not called sin but something else, more friendly. A Catholic who is spiritually mature will understand and accept that they are disordered in some way because we all live in a fallen, disordered world. I struggle with things that are disordered too - I sin. We all do. But you know that already, right? Perhaps the real challenge is to accept that you are indeed disordered, this way or another, and that by following Christ you can become holy. I fought against God and His ways for many years and I finally came to the conclusion that I must not deal with my sinfulness by accepting it and just living with it, but that I must desire holiness even if I fall down regularly. I think that it really is as simple as that and that the attitude makes all the difference.

I’m sorry your feelings have been hurt when you were younger. But you are not a child anymore. Have the courage to follow Christ no matter how hard it is. That is what all the saints have done, in their own special ways.

You made a good point.
mlz

 

[Charlemagne_III]

You aren’t paying attention, I did indirectly mention the inquisition.
rossum

This thread is not about the Inquisition. Now can we please move on?

 

[mlz]

I personally know 3 guys who are gay and have absolutely no problem with Church teaching. Their family loves and respects them, is understanding, and they are very good Catholics. They have lived various lifestyles and have gone in and out of their sins as we all do, but they know the truth even though it’s hard to live by.

Do you know how many men would be “thrilled” if the Church came out and said, porn is ok under some circumstances? We all look for justification but you have to understand that after 2k years our inability to accept the Church’s teaching says more about us than it does the Church.

Homosexuals have a problem thinking that their sins and their lives are harder and more egregious than the rest of us. Last I checked a mortal sin is still a mortal sin, no matter who your “partner” is. You can receive communion all you want in your sins but don’t think you’re justified in doing so, believe me, we’ve ALL tried to do so without being judged. We don’t have the luxury of ignorance in thinking we’re saved automatically, that’s the difficulty in being Catholic, is being a steward of Truth and living that life as a testament to that Truth.

Well put.
mlz

 

[Prodigal_Son]

Complacency is not a virtue. We should all be ashamed of our sins and struggle to overcome them.

Without shame there is only pride and rebellion.

Huh. In my experience, shame only causes a person to **hide **their sins, not stop doing them. Guilt has a positive role, but shame doesn’t.

Maybe we can be motivated to do good because we don’t want to be ashamed? That would make sense to me.

 

[epan]

Sorry, is this an argument?

Surely one has a duty of seeking out the truth to the best of one’s ability, not simply assuming everything the Church says is true. But one ought to be careful not to simply accept as “truth” whatever conforms to the way one wants the world to be. The fact that I desire sexual intimacy with a man is not an argument that such intimacy is good for me.

No. I ask a sincere question. It is a matter of historic record that the Church has been wrong, at times.

So, when one considers Church doctrine today, how is one to determine whether it is true or false, except by personal introspection?

 

[epan]

The church has never claimed to be right about everything. She does claim, however, to be right in her fundamental doctrines which have been taught infallibly (although never defined as infallible). Her teaching on the sinfulness of homosexual behavior falls into that category. It is a doctrine which has been taught unchanged for 2000 years. The rejection of such a doctrine is a rejection of the claims the church makes about herself, and if the church is wrong on a point which has been infallibly taught then Catholicism is meaningless.

Ender

However “she” has insisted that “she” was correct, when, in fact, “she” was incorrect. She has indeed changed moral teachings on hindsight. So, how is one to distinguish when she is actually correct, or only claiming to be correct?

 

[Prodigal_Son]

No. I ask a sincere question. It is a matter of historic record that the Church has been wrong, at times.

So, when one considers Church doctrine today, how is one to determine whether it is true or false, except by personal introspection?

Well, sure. But we have the duty to guide our introspection by seeking out the viewpoints of those who are wiser and more virtuous than we are. We can’t simply “go it alone”.

Some of us have used personal introspection, and come to the conclusion that the Catholic Church is pretty much right. Or, as Paul Simon said:

The Cross is in the ballpark / Why deny the obvious child?

 

[Prodigal_Son]

However “she” has insisted that “she” was correct, when, in fact, “she” was incorrect. She has indeed changed moral teachings on hindsight. So, how is one to distinguish when she is actually correct, or only claiming to be correct?

Sounds like a wonderful topic for another thread…

Right now, you’re only goading faithful Catholics into some silly exercise in proving that the Church has never changed its mind about anything. Which has NOTHING to do with the OP’s question.