Serious doubts about Church teaching on homosexuality

[Prodigal_Son]

Naomily,

Thank you for your words, which I think will be very helpful for everyone who reads this thread to consider prayfully.

1. But thank you, because every single post here has given me something to consider. It’s becoming clear to me that the way homosexuality is approached in the Church is wrong, even if the teachings are not. Consciously or not, we have created an unsafe environment for members of the LGBTQ community, regardless of their celibacy. I cannot tell you how many comments I, a closeted and “upstanding member of my parish,” have heard that are mocking and cruel towards homosexuals. These harmless jokes and gossip create a culture of fear and repression.

You’re SO right about this.

When I grew up, the only time I heard homosexuality discussed was when people would talk about the priest scandals. The message I got was that gay people are evil monsters who wanted to rape children. Then I discovered that I was attracted to men, and I started feel absolutely monstrous.

In my experience, Catholics are much kinder talking TO gay people than talking ABOUT gay people. But misunderstandings occur, sadly, in both cases.

As an adolescent child, navigating my sexuality (which is always a confusing time, gay or straight), I had no role models. I had no visible model of a lesbian, never mind a Catholic lesbian. I was entirely alone, in an environment that was very clearly hostile to me.

Yeah, I’ve been there.

So please, I would love to hear more of your thoughts and opinions and stories. These discussions are important to have. If homosexuality had been discussed outside of innuendos and whispers, my childhood would have been a lot less confusing.

Amen!

 

[Prodigal_Son]

Ahh, I think we are conflating two different subjects here. I was referring to ‘being stoical’. I see nothing wrong with that. The Second World War could never have been won without it.

To be stoical means to be impervious to pain, right? If so, then Jesus clearly was not stoical.

 

[Tigg]

naomily:
I am appalled at the misinformation that has been given to you on this thread by some and I pray you have the discernment to search out the truth. Statements like these imply sympathy for your cause, but in reality are full of poison. Please see beyond them so you may be protected and stay on the correct path to fullness of life and blessing.

I feel for you and your distress. Please don’t let the teachings of the Catholic Church destroy your life.

I really hope you look at other churches. The bottom line is that the Catholic church considers homosexual inclinations (let alone sexual activity) to be seriously disordered.

If you believe as I do that homosexual orientation is natural and merely an alternative orientation given to you by God (after all he created you), the Catholic church can never be home.

I truly believe that whatever way love is expressed between two consenting adults is entirely their own business and that it has nothing whatsoever to do with the Catholic Church. God is love and we are all His beloved children.

It will probably change, but it will take some time. The statement that church doctrine is immutable is false, as any student of history knows. It is a popular and recent fad in the church to claim otherwise.

But this advice is correct. There is no legitimate place for GLBT people within the church. It will need to mature in its understanding of human sexuality before that time will come…

Do not consider bad advice on an internet forum as though it were coming from those who would call you friend. I pray you will consider that truly charitable people are those who would desire the very best for you – who sincerely love you by virtue of the fact that they want you to live in Truth and authentic happiness which can only come from the Lord.

 

[Tigg]

But thank you, because every single post here has given me something to consider. It’s becoming clear to me that the way homosexuality is approached in the Church is wrong, even if the teachings are not. Consciously or not, we have created an unsafe environment for members of the LGBTQ community, regardless of their celibacy. I cannot tell you how many comments I, a closeted and “upstanding member of my parish,” have heard that are mocking and cruel towards homosexuals. These harmless jokes and gossip create a culture of fear and repression.

You obviously have suffered from cruel comments and I ask on behalf of the entire Catholic Church, that those individuals who have been unkind and careless repent and receive forgiveness from you. You must know however, that these bigoted, uncharitable persons do **NOT **represent the Church’s position on the pastoral care of homosexual persons. Do not let these experiences unjustly color what the Church actually says. Consider these quotes from the bishops and official documents of the Church:

**"It is crucially important to understand that saying a person has a particular inclination that is disordered is not to say that the person as a whole is disordered. **… While the particular inclination to homosexual acts is disordered, the person retains his or her intrinsic human dignity and value…(In its section on pastoral care) the statement condemns “unjust discrimination and harassment” of those with a homosexual inclination and stresses the importance of a parish community that welcomes them as active, participating members. “Persons who experience same-sex attraction and yet are living in accord with church teaching should be encouraged to take an active role in the life of the faith community,”

 

[Tigg]

I am asking all of you today to please, please think about the language you use in your every day life. Do you throw around slurs (fag, ****, etc.)? Do you point and laugh at openly gay members of society? Even the tiniest rude comment, heard by a closeted friend (and, I will stress that you have no idea who in your life is gay), can cause unimaginable anguish. This sort of nastiness drives good people away from the Church.

None of my church friends would ever in this world consider using this language or behaving in such a fashion. It is unfathomable to me that anyone could, and if I were you, I would disengage myself from the company of those who do.

The man wearing leather and waving a rainbow flag next weekend at a Pride Parade may make you giggle or feel uncomfortable, but he is a human too and deserves our love. The LGBTQ community faces discrimination at every level of life regardless of their relationship status.

Forgive me, but I sense a certain naivete in your comment. I doubt very much that the man wearing a leather and waving a rainbow flag would make any faithful Christian giggle or feel uncomfortable. On the contrary, we would be appalled at their lack of decency and at their aggressive behavior to flaunt their sexuality in our faces and throw used condoms into the crowd.

Make no mistake that it is goodness and your well being that the true Christian desires for you, but in following Christ, there can also be no true charity without upholding the Lord’s truth and defending the faith.

 

[Orogeny]

The LGBTQ community faces discrimination at every level of life regardless of their relationship status.

How would anyone know that you are a lesbian if you are not in a relationship and you choose not to make your sexual attractions public?

Peace

Tim

 

[laircy]

Of course not. They simply make the following argument:

1. If Catholicism is true, then gay sex is wrong.
2. Gay sex is not wrong.
3. Therefore, Catholicism isn’t true.

There is no way to combat this argument without attacking premise #2. But the interesting thing is that you can’t START by attacking premise #2. You can’t start by saying what’s wrong. You have to introduce them to the person of Jesus, a Jesus who doesn’t care one whit if your sin is theft or lust or sodomy or envy or rape – He only cares that you turn wholly to Him and receive His mercy.

Once we encounter that love and mercy, we will be asking Him what He wants us to give up for His sake.

Maybe with some people. I don’t know. I’ve seen plenty of people who think they’ve got their relationship with Jesus all covered and think of themselves as good Catholics but “Jesus doesn’t care about [insert sin here].” They don’t think of Catholicism as a unified whole that can be accepted or rejected, but that it can be chopped into little pieces and selected from like a cafeteria. They will not want to give up for Jesus something they see as perfectly acceptable. What do we do about those people?

 

[naomily]

Maybe with some people. I don’t know. I’ve seen plenty of people who think they’ve got their relationship with Jesus all covered and think of themselves as good Catholics but “Jesus doesn’t care about [insert sin here].” They don’t think of Catholicism as a unified whole that can be accepted or rejected, but that it can be chopped into little pieces and selected from like a cafeteria. They will not want to give up for Jesus something they see as perfectly acceptable. What do we do about those people?

Why does it matter what we think of them? Their religious choices are between them and God and we can only treat them with respect, regardless of our differences.

 

[Tigg]

How would anyone know that you are a lesbian if you are not in a relationship and you choose not to make your sexual attractions public?

Peace

Tim

**^ THIS! ** Discretion can go a very long way! Close and trusted friends, family and one’s confessor make for the appropriate channels to “share.”

 

[rossum]

How would anyone know that you are a lesbian

Not as easy as you think. Take off your wedding ring and take down all wedding photos in your home. Never ever refer to “we”, “my wife”, “my spouse”, “my partner”, “my girlfriend” etc. “My friend” is allowed. This applies both to direct personal interactions and to on-line Facebook, LinkedIn etc. postings as well. Be prepared to constantly censor your life and to lie (even by omission) to everyone.

Be very careful how you fill in the Marital Status box on official forms. Be very careful who will see those forms – is the HR section at your work inclined to gossip? Never discuss your tax status with anyone except possibly your accountant.

Be prepared never to visit your spouse in hospital when other people might be visiting. Likewise, if you are in hospital make sure that she does not visit when others are present. If there is an unfortunate clash, then be prepared to lie and refer to your partner as “a friend”.

Be prepared to pretend to have male friends, and to pretend to date occasionally. Never ever refer to the fact that you are actually dating other women, again lie if you have to. Complain that you can never find “Mr. Right”. At least you won’t have to lie about that one.

Staying in the closet, which is what you are suggesting, is very hard work and extremely stressful. It is also sinful, as it entails a lot of lying:

“Who was that woman I saw you with last night?”

“Oh… just someone I knew from college. We happened to bump into each other.”

rossum

 

[epan]

naomily:
I am appalled at the misinformation that has been given to you on this thread by some and I pray you have the discernment to search out the truth. Statements like these imply sympathy for your cause, but in reality are full of poison. Please see beyond them so you may be protected and stay on the correct path to fullness of life and blessing.

Do not consider bad advice on an internet forum as though it were coming from those who would call you friend. I pray you will consider that truly charitable people are those who would desire the very best for you – who sincerely love you by virtue of the fact that they want you to live in Truth and authentic happiness which can only come from the Lord.

And of course, please remember that this “good” advice might be as “bad” as any other here. This poster forgot to mention that little fact.

 

[epan]

Of course not. They simply make the following argument:

1. If Catholicism is true, then gay sex is wrong.
2. Gay sex is not wrong.
3. Therefore, Catholicism isn’t true.

There is no way to combat this argument without attacking premise #2. But the interesting thing is that you can’t START by attacking premise #2. You can’t start by saying what’s wrong. You have to introduce them to the person of Jesus, a Jesus who doesn’t care one whit if your sin is theft or lust or sodomy or envy or rape – He only cares that you turn wholly to Him and receive His mercy.

Once we encounter that love and mercy, we will be asking Him what He wants us to give up for His sake. Our task, as Christians, is to model the mercy of Jesus. What does that mean? Lowering ourselves so as to be there with the gay person in his or her experience, and accepting the experience wholeheartedly. When Jesus met the woman at the well, He asked her for water. She was a sinner, but He put himself below her.

Your daughter is seeking something GOOD in her sinful actions. She just doesn’t recognize that it’s fool’s gold – that the good of these feelings and this pleasure is a false good, and that the good of genuine friendship is not aided by the sort of sexual activity she’s involved in. (I’m assuming she’s sexually active. If not, then I don’t see why there would be such a rift between you).

I will pray that the Lord gives you patience. Patience is, in my experience, the most challenging virtue.

As for her lifestyle being disgusting, aren’t all our lifestyles disgusting? I don’t know about you, but I am a filthy sinner, and it is only through God’s grace that I have ANYTHING good in my life.

The Catholic Church has been wrong on some issues in the past. How is one to know which of the current teachings are true, and which are false? Or, has something fundamentally changed?

 

[Orogeny]

Not as easy as you think.

Sure it is.

Take off your wedding ring and take down all wedding photos in your home. Never ever refer to “we”, “my wife”, “my spouse”, “my partner”, “my girlfriend” etc. “My friend” is allowed. This applies both to direct personal interactions and to on-line Facebook, LinkedIn etc. postings as well. Be prepared to constantly censor your life and to lie (even by omission) to everyone.

My question started with “How would anyone know that you are a lesbian if you are not in a relationship…” so questions regarding who she is with would not happen. Her statement was that “The LGBTQ community faces discrimination at every level of life regardless of their relationship status” is what I was responding to.

Be very careful how you fill in the Marital Status box on official forms. Be very careful who will see those forms – is the HR section at your work inclined to gossip? Never discuss your tax status with anyone except possibly your accountant.

What does other people’s gossiping have to do with revealing one’s sexual orientation?

Be prepared never to visit your spouse in hospital when other people might be visiting. Likewise, if you are in hospital make sure that she does not visit when others are present. If there is an unfortunate clash, then be prepared to lie and refer to your partner as “a friend”.

See above regarding her relationship status.

Staying in the closet, which is what you are suggesting, is very hard work and extremely stressful. It is also sinful, as it entails a lot of lying:

No, it does not.

“Who was that woman I saw you with last night?”

Forgetting the relationship issue that I noted above, how about “a friend”?

“Oh… just someone I knew from college. We happened to bump into each other.”

If that is true, what is the problem. Otherwise, how about “a friend”?

Maybe I’m just ignorant, but why would that answer be a) a lie, or b) the basis for assuming that sex is involved?

I can’t just look at someone and know that they are gay. Can you?

Peace

Tim

 

[AggieCatholic86]

I personally know 3 guys who are gay and have absolutely no problem with Church teaching. Their family loves and respects them, is understanding, and they are very good Catholics. They have lived various lifestyles and have gone in and out of their sins as we all do, but they know the truth even though it’s hard to live by.

Do you know how many men would be “thrilled” if the Church came out and said, porn is ok under some circumstances? We all look for justification but you have to understand that after 2k years our inability to accept the Church’s teaching says more about us than it does the Church.

Homosexuals have a problem thinking that their sins and their lives are harder and more egregious than the rest of us. Last I checked a mortal sin is still a mortal sin, no matter who your “partner” is. You can receive communion all you want in your sins but don’t think you’re justified in doing so, believe me, we’ve ALL tried to do so without being judged. We don’t have the luxury of ignorance in thinking we’re saved automatically, that’s the difficulty in being Catholic, is being a steward of Truth and living that life as a testament to that Truth.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

The Catholic Church has been wrong on some issues in the past. How is one to know which of the current teachings are true, and which are false? Or, has something fundamentally changed?

Sorry, is this an argument?

Surely one has a duty of seeking out the truth to the best of one’s ability, not simply assuming everything the Church says is true. But one ought to be careful not to simply accept as “truth” whatever conforms to the way one wants the world to be. The fact that I desire sexual intimacy with a man is not an argument that such intimacy is good for me.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

Not as easy as you think. Take off your wedding ring and take down all wedding photos in your home. Never ever refer to “we”, “my wife”, “my spouse”, “my partner”, “my girlfriend” etc. “My friend” is allowed. This applies both to direct personal interactions and to on-line Facebook, LinkedIn etc. postings as well. Be prepared to constantly censor your life and to lie (even by omission) to everyone.

Be very careful how you fill in the Marital Status box on official forms. Be very careful who will see those forms – is the HR section at your work inclined to gossip? Never discuss your tax status with anyone except possibly your accountant.

Be prepared never to visit your spouse in hospital when other people might be visiting. Likewise, if you are in hospital make sure that she does not visit when others are present. If there is an unfortunate clash, then be prepared to lie and refer to your partner as “a friend”.

Be prepared to pretend to have male friends, and to pretend to date occasionally. Never ever refer to the fact that you are actually dating other women, again lie if you have to. Complain that you can never find “Mr. Right”. At least you won’t have to lie about that one.

Staying in the closet, which is what you are suggesting, is very hard work and extremely stressful. It is also sinful, as it entails a lot of lying:

“Who was that woman I saw you with last night?”

“Oh… just someone I knew from college. We happened to bump into each other.”

rossum

Why not just say “I’d rather not say”? There’s no need to lie. People don’t have the right to certain information.

Personally, I don’t have a problem with a gay person being “out”, but I’m not sure being “in the closet” involves lying. It involves drawing lines about what questions are and are not appropriate.

 

[AggieCatholic86]

And I will say this, the Church and it’s members need to apologize intensely to the LGBT community for being an insufficient example of charity and mercy that Jesus exhibited in his ministry. Remember the rich man who followed the commandments and Jesus said give up everything and follow me, and he walked away sad? Well it says that Jesus looked upon him with love.

They will know we are Christians by our love. The people around us are supposed to see Jesus when they see us. We have the supreme privilege of receiving the Lord Jesus Christ in the Eucharist, we have the sacraments, unending graces and support through the Saints. We are the most gifted people on this planet and people should see that through our lives. People should be able to see us and know us and convert based on the lives that we live, through charity and mercy.

We have to let them know that they are valuable as individuals, and not their sins. How many homosexuals would go to St Vincent dePaul and say that those people are hateful, exclusionary, not loving? Probably none, because they can see the true charity at work.

 

[Scottblock]

I am a former catholic who occasionally lurks around this forum. I felt compelled to join after reading this thread, if only to say something to two people:

Firstly, Starrsmother. Shame. Shame shame shame. I feel so bad for your daughter.

Naomily,
I’m not going to tell you to leave the church. I understand that after so many years in a community, it’s not that simple. However, I would advise you to look at the bigger picture and into your future. You know who you are. You know as well as I do that being homosexual isn’t a cross to bear. You know God made you just the way you are.

Now, if you want a future with a family, children and all the happiness you deserve, you know that the church will never condone it. The church asks you to be celibate. It doesn’t want you to get married to another woman and raise children with her. It doesn’t even think that marriage is a real marriage and it doesn’t think that family is a real family. That’s never going to change.

On one hand, I can’t completely blame the church or it’s members for how it views homosexual people. The couples suing private businesses for cakes and photography are the most vocal, visible people in the “gay community” (I use quotes because I don’t believe in a gay community; I believe in a human community). Therefore, many get the impression that most LGBT people are the type to sue innocent Christians trying to run a business the way they see fit. That’s just not true.

I left the church because I couldn’t reconcile my being gay with what the church asked of me. I was told my SSA was my cross to bear, just as we all have one. I’ve seen it again on this forum. Someone comparing their chronic masturbation habit to being homosexual? I mean, really? It’s offensive to even compare.

I’m still a Christian. I’m just not a catholic. I married my husband in a welcoming church and we’ve spent the last decade together, now considering children.

I’m not asking you to leave the church. But I am asking you to please, PLEASE don’t deprive yourself of love, intimacy, happiness, and a family just because the Catholic Church isn’t on board with “the gay”. The church will never change (and it shouldn’t; I still admire them for sticking to their guns, so to speak), but you don’t have to stay in it to have a relationship with god, despite what the people here have to say.

You deserve love. Happiness. First kisses. Hand holding. Cuddling. You deserve it all. If you can somehow reconcile the church’s teachings with being a lesbian (without restrictions), then wonderful…but most here will say that’s impossible. But I suppose that’s up to you.

Just please don’t sacrifice the happiness and joy you deserve because one sect of one religion out of over 20 major religions (and I’m not including the many others which are less common) says that this is all just your “cross to bear”. Love is never a burden.

Good luck. I truly hope you get what you deserve in life. I’m glad I did.

 

[Orogeny]

I am a former catholic who occasionally lurks around this forum. I felt compelled to join after reading this thread, if only to say something to two people:

Firstly, Starrsmother. Shame. Shame shame shame. I feel so bad for your daughter.

Naomily,
I’m not going to tell you to leave the church. I understand that after so many years in a community, it’s not that simple. However, I would advise you to look at the bigger picture and into your future. You know who you are. You know as well as I do that being homosexual isn’t a cross to bear. You know God made you just the way you are.

Now, if you want a future with a family, children and all the happiness you deserve, you know that the church will never condone it. The church asks you to be celibate. It doesn’t want you to get married to another woman and raise children with her. It doesn’t even think that marriage is a real marriage and it doesn’t think that family is a real family. That’s never going to change.

On one hand, I can’t completely blame the church or it’s members for how it views homosexual people. The couples suing private businesses for cakes and photography are the most vocal, visible people in the “gay community” (I use quotes because I don’t believe in a gay community; I believe in a human community). Therefore, many get the impression that most LGBT people are the type to sue innocent Christians trying to run a business the way they see fit. That’s just not true.

I left the church because I couldn’t reconcile my being gay with what the church asked of me. I was told my SSA was my cross to bear, just as we all have one. I’ve seen it again on this forum. Someone comparing their chronic masturbation habit to being homosexual? I mean, really? It’s offensive to even compare.

I’m still a Christian. I’m just not a catholic. I married my husband in a welcoming church and we’ve spent the last decade together, now considering children.

I’m not asking you to leave the church. But I am asking you to please, PLEASE don’t deprive yourself of love, intimacy, happiness, and a family just because the Catholic Church isn’t on board with “the gay”. The church will never change (and it shouldn’t; I still admire them for sticking to their guns, so to speak), but you don’t have to stay in it to have a relationship with god, despite what the people here have to say.

You deserve love. Happiness. First kisses. Hand holding. Cuddling. You deserve it all. If you can somehow reconcile the church’s teachings with being a lesbian (without restrictions), then wonderful…but most here will say that’s impossible. But I suppose that’s up to you.

Just please don’t sacrifice the happiness and joy you deserve because one sect of one religion out of over 20 major religions (and I’m not including the many others which are less common) says that this is all just your “cross to bear”. Love is never a burden.

Good luck. I truly hope you get what you deserve in life. I’m glad I did.

I guess this post really sums up the problem. You DESERVE to be able to do what ever makes you happy. There are no consequences as long as you are true to your sexual attraction.

This is a very sad post. And not because of the Church’s teachings.

Peace

Tim

 

[Scottblock]

I guess this post really sums up the problem. You DESERVE to be able to do what ever makes you happy. There are no consequences as long as you are true to your sexual attraction.

This is a very sad post. And not because of the Church’s teachings.

Peace

Tim

I never said that I or the original poster “deserve to do whatever we want to make us happy”. I said we deserve to be happy. What consequences?

Are you talking about consequences on my soul? Well, that’s between me and God. But, as I said before, I am the way God made me just as the original poster is the way God made her.

Consequences on society? Please. Enlighten me. My ten year relationship has yet to have any effect on you or anyone else.

What is sad is people who think that having a chronic masturbation habit is the same as having same-sex attractions.