Serious doubts about Church teaching on homosexuality

[tangerines]

Yes, I have doubts on the Church’s position. That is not a sin. Questioning why (by some estimates) 4% of the population were born unable to experience intimate romantic love is a genuine concern. I doubt out of love for my LGBTQ brothers and sisters.

I think the percentage of people born unable to experience intimate romantic love is waaaay higher than 4%. Assuming only 4% of the population is homosexual (though it seems to me the rates are probably much much higher) there is also a significant amount of people who suffer from impotency for their entire lives, or for the majority of their lives if they’ve been in some sort of accident or had to start a medication that causes this. There are a TONNE of reasons why a person may not be able to ever have sex. Being an obedient Catholic homosexual is not the only reason.

But just because a lot of people cannot have sex does not mean they are automatically doomed to an unhappy life. I’ve met a LOT of people, particularly married people, who cannot have sex for the rest of their lives for various reasons (I work in the medical field) and the majority of them are perfectly happy. Why is this? Because intimate romantic love is very low on the list of things a person needs to be truly happy. Our society tells us otherwise, but it is a lie. The happiest most joyful people I’ve ever met are all nuns, and I really don’t think they joy has a whole lot to do with their level of sexual activity. It has to do with their closeness to God. We are all called to holiness, and it is God himself who will fill us up. Not romantic love.

 

[Abu]

The absolute nonsense that some so-called Catholics write betrays the reality that they don’t really know Christ nor His Church, so they fail to help others with Her teaching. What wrong anyone does in private does not make it right!

Those who so cavalierly dismiss what the Catholic Church teaches don’t follow Christ who mandated:
“Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven.” (Mt 16:19) as part of the four promises to Peter alone, which included:
“You are Peter and on this rock I will build My Church.” (Mt 16:18)
“The gates of hell will not prevail against it.”(Mt 16:18)
“I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven." (Mt 16:19)

Sole authority:
“Strengthen your brethren.” (Lk 22:32)
“Feed My sheep.”(Jn 21:17).

How could it be illogical when Christ, the Son of God, authorized St Peter and his successors to lead His Church and to teach without error?

As the great Fr John F Harvey O.S.F.S. in his The Truth About Homosexuality, Ignatius, 1995, has written about the great organizations that offer real help to homosexuals/lesbians – they “have been confronted with scandalous opposition from Catholics both clergy and lay, who do not believe in the teaching of the Church as it is spelled out in the Letter to the Bishops of the Catholic Church on the Pastoral Care of Homosexual Persons. Our response is to continue to spread the good news of magisterial teaching and to encourage homosexual persons to live chastely in Christ.” (p 303).

This great *Letter to the Bishops of the Catholic Church on the Pastoral Care of Homosexual Persons *may be consulted and downloaded from the Vatican website at:
tinyurl.com/4rsyc

 

[cycleman]

I really hope you look at other churches. The bottom line is that the Catholic church considers homosexual inclinations (let alone sexual activity) to be seriously disordered. This is doctrine, and will not be changed. No amount of discussion here, or even dissent from the faithful, will ever change that.

Although the Church does urge tolerance towards the the LGBTQ community, it is in the context of supporting the ‘poor afflicted person’ manage the cross they have been given to bear.

If you believe as I do that homosexual orientation is natural and merely an alternative orientation given to you by God (after all he created you), the Catholic church can never be home.

You are wise and well spoken. You will find your answers, but don’t be afraid to trust your intellect and innate sense of right as you search.

 

[epan]

I really hope you look at other churches. The bottom line is that the Catholic church considers homosexual inclinations (let alone sexual activity) to be seriously disordered. This is doctrine, and will not be changed. No amount of discussion here, or even dissent from the faithful, will ever change that.

Although the Church does urge tolerance towards the the LGBTQ community, it is in the context of supporting the ‘poor afflicted person’ manage the cross they have been given to bear.

If you believe as I do that homosexual orientation is natural and merely an alternative orientation given to you by God (after all he created you), the Catholic church can never be home.

You are wise and well spoken. You will find your answers, but don’t be afraid to trust your intellect and innate sense of right as you search.

It will probably change, but it will take some time. The statement that church doctrine is immutable is false, as any student of history knows. It is a popular and recent fad in the church to claim otherwise.

But this advice is correct. There is no legitimate place for GLBT people within the church. It will need to mature in its understanding of human sexuality before that time will come.

 

[Milasol]

Another thing why I love the Catholic Church is because it does not fall for modern fallacies such as homosexual marriage and women priest.

Truth does not adjust to passing movements.

Since when does man dictate what is moral and what is not to God?

We are living in strange times. I believe however each person will be held accountable at the end.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

It works for me. Is there another way?

“Suck it up” is a stoic philosophy. Jesus did not suck it up. He drank it in. He felt all his pain, his sorrow, his vulnerability, and he cried out to God about it. The man in the Garden of Gethsemane was not sucking it up.

And then, yes, he surrendered himself to his Father’s will. As should we. We cast ourselves on the mercy of God, with all our agony, all our passion. He knows what to do with it.

 

[catybug]

It will probably change, but it will take some time. The statement that church doctrine is immutable is false, as any student of history knows. It is a popular and recent fad in the church to claim otherwise.

But this advice is correct. There is no legitimate place for GLBT people within the church. It will need to mature in its understanding of human sexuality before that time will come.

The Church isn’t going to change its position on Homesexual marriage. It can’t. It is very clear in the Bible what marriage is, and what is isn’t. The Church does already demand that people treat others with SSA as much respect as anyone else. god made man and woman, and God made sex, and he made these things with a purpose. Unity and procreation. You can’t divorce the act and its purpose. This does not mean they are meant to live without love though. There are different types of love. Some of the most beautiful relationships are in platonic friendships. And its not as if we only say homosexuals have to be chaste, we believe /everyone/ has to be chaste. And realize our greatest calling is to Love one another, and love, true authentic love, means sacrifice.

Leaving the Church isn’t the answer though. Because only in the Church are the Sacraments and the True Presence in the Eucharist. The only thing that brings true lasting happiness in this life AND the next. God is Love, and he showed that to us by sending Jesus to die on the cross, raising him, and by allowing us to be in communion with him in the Eucharist.

 

[Allegra]

It will probably change, but it will take some time. The statement that church doctrine is immutable is false, as any student of history knows. It is a popular and recent fad in the church to claim otherwise.

But this advice is correct. There is no legitimate place for GLBT people within the church. It will need to mature in its understanding of human sexuality before that time will come.

There is not a true statement in this post.

 

[Abu]

epan #43
It will probably change, but it will take some time. The statement that church doctrine is immutable is false, as any student of history knows. It is a popular and recent fad in the church to claim otherwise.

Another false feeling.
The evil of homosexual sin, like any other sin, is identified by Christ Himself.
No wonder there is so much misinformation and confusion – so little is known by those who mislead others.
Check the references to CCC #2357: Gen 19:1-29; Rom 1:24-27; 1 Cor 6:10; 1 Tim 1:10. God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah for the grave depravity of sodomy – the acts are “intrinsically disordered”. St Paul is equally blunt.

“And whoever will not receive you nor hear your words…shake off the dust from your feet. Assuredly I say to you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the Day of Judgment than for that city.” (Mt 10: 14-15). Not only is this perversion condemned in the Old Testament (Gen 19) but more than once Saint Paul lists this sin among those which will exclude someone from Heaven.

God was very clear: “Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise acted immorally and indulged in unnatural lust, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire . . .” (Jude 7).

But this advice is correct. There is no legitimate place for GLBT people within the church.

Another rank falsehood.

To repeat:
**CCC 2358: **“They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.”

 

[Starrsmother]

There is not a true statement in this post.

Allegra, you are 100% correct in at least one way. There well may always be a line in the sand between the Catholic church and the LGBT community. HOWEVER, there is ALWAYS a place in the Catholic church for a sinner who is fighting the same battle we all do:to work toward being holy and more perfect in God’s eyes.

If a Catholic were a sinner because he or she engaged routinely in watching child pornography, what would we say? I think we’d say that he or she is a sinner and needs to confess this sin and try very hard to no longer fall into that sin. Might the person fall into the same sin again? Of course–in which case, he or she would need to go to confession again, confess the sin, possibly speak with the priest at length in confession—and then go forth trying to sin no more. How many times can the sinner be forgiven? As Jesus told us, basically as many times as it takes—“70 X 1000” if need be, as long as the sinner is sincerely repenting and working toward ending the sin. God will forgive us for falling short. God did not say that He would forgive us for thumbing our noses at Him!!!

The issue with the LGBT community is often the issue of repenting. Do they want to be forgiven and either change their life to heterosexuality or become chaste? Often the answer is “No”–they want the church to change and accept their sin and preferred lifestyle as normal, especially since the secular world tells them they are normal–even brave to come out of the closet. My own lesbian daughter thinks this way. Every time Nancy Pelosi–or any Catholic in a position of influence, comes out saying another pro-gay remark, I hear about it. As I’ve told my daughter, it doesn’t matter what Catholic says what or how powerful they are on earth. Any gay who can read and isn’t illiterate and who reads the bible and finds any wiggle room in Jesus’ teachings about sexuality is seriously mentally compromised. Thus the church won’t change its position because it CAN’T!!!

And as I’ve told my daughter, There may just be a Pelosi-sized hole in hell just waiting for her!

 

[Prodigal_Son]

The issue with the LGBT community is often the issue of repenting. Do they want to be forgiven and either change their life to heterosexuality or become chaste? Often the answer is “No”–they want the church to change and accept their sin and preferred lifestyle as normal, especially since the secular world tells them they are normal–even brave to come out of the closet.

Some people have this issue, sure. But I think it’s more common that people just have never been *converted *to Christ, even if they grew up “Christian” (or even if they call themselves “Christian” now).

In my view, it’s always silly to blame non-Christians for being non-Christian. Conversion changes everything – all the moreso for a gay person. In my view, we need to stop telling gay people to “stop doing that”, and start preaching the gospel to them.

If the gospel were a 10-page book, “stop sinning” would be on page 10, not page 1. The Good News is everything on pages 1 through 9 that makes it possible – even desirable! – to stop sinning.

 

[Starrsmother]

Some people have this issue, sure. But I think it’s more common that people just have never been *converted *to Christ, even if they grew up “Christian” (or even if they call themselves “Christian” now).

In my view, it’s always silly to blame non-Christians for being non-Christian. Conversion changes everything – all the moreso for a gay person. In my view, we need to stop telling gay people to “stop doing that”, and start preaching the gospel to them.

If the gospel were a 10-page book, “stop sinning” would be on page 10, not page 1. The Good News is everything on pages 1 through 9 that makes it possible – even desirable! – to stop sinning.

Prodigal Son, you speak with wisdom. There is only one point I’d like to make as the mother of a lesbian daughter. The point I humbly make is this: if someone doesn’t believe that a particular action or activity is a sin in the first place, then it doesn’t matter whether it’s on page 1 or page 200–they aren’t buying into it. The secular world teaches or voices that homosexuality is just another norm–and this is exactly what the gays want to hear. Even remarks like Pope Francis’ “Who am I to judge?” get ran through the LGBT community’s food processor and come out that the pope has said that he is is pro-gay. Obviously this is untrue. But please believe me when I say that I’ve had to even defend that issue with my crazy daughter! She hears what she wants, reads the Huff Post like a bible and frankly, I’m about ready to hit her on the head with a shovel and bury her in my back yard–except it would probably kill all the grass!

As I shared, my own child is gay and l get totally tired of molly-coddling her beliefs! Sometimes, I want to just scream at her: “Frankly, your lifestyle is sinful at best and just plain disgusting at the least.” But, of course, that’s exactly what she expects me to say, sometimes I think it’s what she wants me to say as that would somehow prove to her and her cronies that I lack Christian love as does the whole Catholic church—so I bite my tongue and I don’t! I’m not sure you can simply"love" the LGBT community into the church regardless of what page you put the issue with homosexual sex on… Believe me, they already love themselves enough for any church or group of people. What they DON’T do or want any part of, is to have to accept any view other than their own. With respect, I’ve about decided that what they need most is a good, firm, kick squarely in the #ss—as at least that would get their attention. I’m an old Texas Mom so please excuse my bluntness!

 

[Contra_Mundum_1]

It’s becoming clear to me that the way homosexuality is approached in the Church is wrong, even if the teachings are not.
(…)
I was a young girl with schoolgirl crushes and if the Church mentioned homosexuality at all, the essence of their words were “suck it up”. **“Intrinsically disordered” sounds unbelievably scary and cruel to a child. **

I am not homosexual but want to offer a few thoughts about sin generally.

It always strikes me how homosexuals insist that their sin is special and needs a different approach. Of course, it is not called sin but something else, more friendly. A Catholic who is spiritually mature will understand and accept that they are disordered in some way because we all live in a fallen, disordered world. I struggle with things that are disordered too - I sin. We all do. But you know that already, right? Perhaps the real challenge is to accept that you are indeed disordered, this way or another, and that by following Christ you can become holy. I fought against God and His ways for many years and I finally came to the conclusion that I must not deal with my sinfulness by accepting it and just living with it, but that I must desire holiness even if I fall down regularly. I think that it really is as simple as that and that the attitude makes all the difference.

I’m sorry your feelings have been hurt when you were younger. But you are not a child anymore. Have the courage to follow Christ no matter how hard it is. That is what all the saints have done, in their own special ways.

 

[rossum]

But, of course, that’s exactly what she expects me to say, sometimes I think it’s what she wants me to say as that would somehow prove to her and her cronies that I lack Christian love as does the whole Catholic church—so I bite my tongue and I don’t! I’m not sure you can simply"love" the LGBT community into the church regardless of what page you put the issue with homosexual sex on.

The say what she doesn’t expect you to say. She obviously has difficulties with the Catholic Church, so point her at a different, more liberal but still Christian, church: MCC, Quakers, Presbyterian, Episcopalian, whatever. She will still be in a Christian church and so still open to Christianity. If you insist on “My way or the highway”, then you might get the highway. Sometimes half a loaf is the best you can do in the short term.

Conforming to her expectations will only get her expected (and likely automatic) response. If you want a different, more thoughtful, response, then you need to confound her expectations.

$0.02

rossum

 

[Padster]

“Suck it up” is a stoic philosophy.

What’s wrong with stoicism? In the end you have to accept your situation or you will be driven mad with anger, bitterness and sorrow. So yes, ‘suck it up’ is a good philosophy. And one can hardly compare my situation on dialysis, as tough as it was, with the horrors of crucifixion. I can only think of one thing that is common to both: thirst. I was driven insane by thirst because of fluid restriction. That’s where the similarities end. It is like comparing chalk with cheese.

Best wishes,
Padster

 

[Starrsmother]

The say what she doesn’t expect you to say. She obviously has difficulties with the Catholic Church, so point her at a different, more liberal but still Christian, church: MCC, Quakers, Presbyterian, Episcopalian, whatever. She will still be in a Christian church and so still open to Christianity. If you insist on “My way or the highway”, then you might get the highway. Sometimes half a loaf is the best you can do in the short term.

Conforming to her expectations will only get her expected (and likely automatic) response. If you want a different, more thoughtful, response, then you need to confound her expectations.

$0.02

rossum

My friend–I already have “the highway” with her in terms of religion–and with due respect to your thoughts, I’d never point her to any church but the Catholic church even if she were open to it, which right now she isn’t. I will not be a hypocrite for anyone–including my own beloved child!. I simply tell her over and over how much I love her and that I will do anything in my ability to help her–except to go to hell for her. She’s on her own there. And yes, it breaks both my heart and my husband’s.

 

[Allegra]

And as I’ve told my daughter, There may just be a Pelosi-sized hole in hell just waiting for her!

I don’t think I could say something like that to my daughter. I hope you have other, more loving things to tell her as well.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

What’s wrong with stoicism?

The fact that it is a far cry from Christianity. See blog.logos.com/2013/10/the-stoics-and-the-early-church/

 

[Prodigal_Son]

Prodigal Son, you speak with wisdom. There is only one point I’d like to make as the mother of a lesbian daughter. The point I humbly make is this: if someone doesn’t believe that a particular action or activity is a sin in the first place, then it doesn’t matter whether it’s on page 1 or page 200–they aren’t buying into it.

Of course not. They simply make the following argument:

1. If Catholicism is true, then gay sex is wrong.
2. Gay sex is not wrong.
3. Therefore, Catholicism isn’t true.

There is no way to combat this argument without attacking premise #2. But the interesting thing is that you can’t START by attacking premise #2. You can’t start by saying what’s wrong. You have to introduce them to the person of Jesus, a Jesus who doesn’t care one whit if your sin is theft or lust or sodomy or envy or rape – He only cares that you turn wholly to Him and receive His mercy.

Once we encounter that love and mercy, we will be asking Him what He wants us to give up for His sake. Our task, as Christians, is to model the mercy of Jesus. What does that mean? Lowering ourselves so as to be there with the gay person in his or her experience, and accepting the experience wholeheartedly. When Jesus met the woman at the well, He asked her for water. She was a sinner, but He put himself below her.

Your daughter is seeking something GOOD in her sinful actions. She just doesn’t recognize that it’s fool’s gold – that the good of these feelings and this pleasure is a false good, and that the good of genuine friendship is not aided by the sort of sexual activity she’s involved in. (I’m assuming she’s sexually active. If not, then I don’t see why there would be such a rift between you).

As I shared, my own child is gay and l get totally tired of molly-coddling her beliefs! Sometimes, I want to just scream at her: “Frankly, your lifestyle is sinful at best and just plain disgusting at the least.”

I will pray that the Lord gives you patience. Patience is, in my experience, the most challenging virtue.

As for her lifestyle being disgusting, aren’t all our lifestyles disgusting? I don’t know about you, but I am a filthy sinner, and it is only through God’s grace that I have ANYTHING good in my life.

 

[Padster]

The fact that it is a far cry from Christianity. See blog.logos.com/2013/10/the-stoics-and-the-early-church/

Ahh, I think we are conflating two different subjects here. I was referring to ‘being stoical’. I see nothing wrong with that. The Second World War could never have been won without it.

Best wishes,
Padster