Seventh Day Adventist Church and Abortion

[adventistnomore]

Maria 1215

Good point Maria

Ditto. that’s a fantastic insight

 

[Renton405]

Because a down syndrome child isn’t worth years of love and sacrifice?

Bestiality is also very rare, and very damnable.

I don’t think you can get pregnant from beastiality…

Very abominable sin though, true…

Can’t rape victims immediatly go to the hospital after they are raped and take the morning after pill? I think you have 72 hours before conception forms anyway…why do woman wait till they get pregnant and make the unborn child suffer with an abortion?

 

[Renton405]

gosh, it feels great to feel Catholic.

I agree…

It shows that it is the mark of the true church of christ… Not only because we have been here 2000 years and are connected to the apostles historically, but because we have ACTUALLY stand up for these things while all the other churches have dilly dallyed around…Is there any other church that takes so a stern position against the commandment “Thou shall not skill”?

 

[Maria1212]

I agree…

It shows that it is the mark of the true church of christ… Not only because we have been here 2000 years and are connected to the apostles historically, but because we have ACTUALLY stand up for these things while all the other churches have dilly dallyed around…Is there any other church that takes so a stern position against the commandment “Thou shall not skill”?

I agree. The Catholic Church refuses to “water down” the teachings of Christ. The Catholic Church does not add to the teachings of Christ and his apostles and the Catholic Church does not take away any of our Lord`s teachings.

Sincerely,

Maria1212

 

[djconklin]

Is there any other church that takes so a stern position against the commandment “Thou shall not skill”?

The use of the word “kill” is a mis-translation of the Hebrew (English characters) “ratsach.” The word means “to murder.”

–Rajmund Dabrowski
Communication Director
Seventh-day Adventist Church
World Headquarters

So this is indeed an official statement, and the Adventist church is therefore officially pro-choice.

I can’t imagine any church in the world allowing a communications director setting down what one’s beliefs are. What you have is a committee who decided on a set of principles to guide people when making a difficult decision. These were never voted on by the world church which is REQUIRED in our church for it to become an official belief of the church.

As one counselling professor noted about abortion: what Satan has done is to pit two God-given rights against each other: the right to life and the right to choose. Some people would deny people the right to choose and kill millions (I’ve heard 25, but that seems hard to believe) who disagree with them–see ccel.org/f/foxe/martyrs/home.html.

 

[Maria1212]

The use of the word “kill” is a mis-translation of the Hebrew (English characters) “ratsach.” The word means “to murder.”

I can’t imagine any church in the world allowing a communications director setting down what one’s beliefs are. What you have is a committee who decided on a set of principles to guide people when making a difficult decision. These were never voted on by the world church which is REQUIRED in our church for it to become an official belief of the church.

As one counselling professor noted about abortion: what Satan has done is to pit two God-given rights against each other: the right to life and the right to choose. Some people would deny people the right to choose and kill millions (I’ve heard 25, but that seems hard to believe) who disagree with them–see ccel.org/f/foxe/martyrs/home.html.

I would find it difficult to belong to a church whose beliefs I did not share. Frankly, I do not care what a counselling professor says on abortion. I care what the Bible says. You can argue over semantics all you want, or rationalize all you want, but kill, and murder are the SAME thing. If you kill a person, you murdered them. If you murdered a person, you killed them. It means the same thing. As I posted earlier, in Japanese, there is only one verb to describe that same action. The action of taking another`s life.

To recap, the Catholic Church does not permit abortion, because abortion kills an unborn baby, which violates the Lords commandment not to kill/commit murder. The Adventist Church permits abortion under certain circumstances. The Catholic Church adheres to this commandment, whereas the Adventist Church permits a loop hole. Christians do not have the right to kill/murder innocent unborn babies. Rather, Christians choose to follow Gods commandments. Some Christians may fail, by choosing sin over God`s commandments, but they should still strive to live by and follow what our Lord taught.

Sincerely,

Maria1212

 

[djconklin]

I would find it difficult to belong to a church whose beliefs I did not share.

I wouldn’t either; in fact, I’d go further and say that any church that does not teach what the Bible says I couldn’t belong too.

Frankly, I do not care what a counselling professor says on abortion.

1. He is a highly intelligent person.
2. He follows the Bible.
3. He gave us something to think about.

I care what the Bible says.

Excellant choice!

You can argue over semantics all you want, or rationalize all you want, but kill, and murder are the SAME thing.

If that was true then why did Israel kill men, women and choildren when they netered into the Promised Land? If that was true why did God allow capital punishment?

If that was true is God a murderer when He kills the wicked on the judgment day?

If all killing is murder then why did God set up cities fo safety?

If you kill a person, you murdered them. If you murdered a person, you killed them.

Likewise, if you could have saved someone and you (pro-choice) chose not to then you murdered them in cold-blood and with intenet.

If you murdered a person, you killed them. It means the same thing.

And we now tknow based on what the Bible says that this is not so.

As I posted earlier, in Japanese, there is only one verb to describe that same action. The action of taking another`s life.

Not relevant; the Bible was written in Hebrew. You are going by a flawed English translation.

The Adventist Church permits abortion under certain circumstances.

This is a misstatement of the facts. A committee gave guidance counsel. They are NOT THE ADVENTIST CHURCH!!! DO YOU FINALLY GET THE MESSAGE??? Try to tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth–the BIBLE says do not bear false witness against your neighbor --it is a SIN! And the wages of sin is DEATH!!!

Clipping the rest!

 

[SDA2RC]

This is a misstatement of the facts. A committee gave guidance counsel. They are NOT THE ADVENTIST CHURCH!!! DO YOU FINALLY GET THE MESSAGE??? Try to tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth–the BIBLE says do not bear false witness against your neighbor --it is a SIN! And the wages of sin is DEATH!!! Clipping the rest!

DJConk,
The committee acted under the authority of the democratically elected General Conference, therefore, their statement is officially representative as the teaching of the Seventh-Day Adventist Church. It was accepted and published on the GC Webpage. It is riduculous to claim that what is taught on the GC webpage is not the teaching of the SDA Church. Especially when you keep referring us to that SAME website to learn what the SDA Church teaches.

 

[Maria1212]

I wouldn’t either; in fact, I’d go further and say that any church that does not teach what the Bible says I couldn’t belong too.

Amen! I agree 100 percent. That is why I am Catholic.

Sincerely,

Maria1212

 

[Maria1212]

And we now tknow based on what the Bible says that this is not so.

You have not proved your point. There is a difference between taking the life of an unborn child, and killing someone in self-defense. As for people going to hell on Judgement Day, they choose hell by separating themselves from God. (see the thread on Adventists and Hell).

This is a misstatement of the facts. A committee gave guidance counsel. They are NOT THE ADVENTIST CHURCH!!! **DO **

It is you, who are not understanding the position, and teaching of your own Church. Why is it that you, multiple times, cite the Adventist website as an official source, yet when I do, it is suddenly unofficial. You can rationalize this all you want, but I dont buy it. The Adventist Church posted their teachings on their official website, and after being contacted, stated that it was their official position. (See Stephen Korsmans previous post. If you have a problem with the official website of your church, or their teachings or statement, please argue about it with them, not me.

I am not lying about anything. Fellow posters can scroll up and read the thread to see that is not the case. It is against the Lord`s commandments to terminate the life of a child who has not yet been born. I am happy to talk about just war or the death penalty on a different thread, but that is off-topic to this thread. This thread is on abortion and the teachings of the Catholic Church and on abortion and teachings of the Adventist Church.

Sincerely,
Maria1212

 

[Maria1212]

DJConk,
The committee acted under the authority of the democratically elected General Conference, therefore, their statement is officially representative as the teaching of the Seventh-Day Adventist Church. It was accepted and published on the GC Webpage. It is riduculous to claim that what is taught on the GC webpage is not the teaching of the SDA Church. Especially when you keep referring us to that SAME website to learn what the SDA Church teaches.

I agree.

Sincerely,

Maria1212

 

[Sixtus]

Because a down syndrome child isn’t worth years of love and sacrifice?

Who says that Down Syndrome children are going to be disabled.! That is an assumption you just cannot make.

I worked with a collegue a few years ago, she was a very formidable lady. She was qualified in law and was very good at understanding complex problems. She was Downe. There was nothing disabled about her

My daughter was told her third child had Downs as it showed up on the scan. They wanted her to have an abortion. She wanted to go ahead on the basis 'she did not feel qualified to play God!
Plus the unborn child was still ‘the fruit of her womb and every bit valued!’

It almost cost her, her marriage as the son-in-law did not want a Down child. Her, my wife and I had a plan drawn up how we would cope. Alas, it as all in vain, the child was born absolutely normal. Though she has a slight Downes look, she is very bright, and far ahead of her older sibblings. She is 5-years old but has a reading age and problem solving age of 11!

Just shows that you just do not know. How many normal children have been mis-diagnosed and killed by mistake

 

[Maria1212]

Who says that Down Syndrome children are going to be disabled.! That is an assumption you just cannot make.

I worked with a collegue a few years ago, she was a very formidable lady. She was qualified in law and was very good at understanding complex problems. She was Downe. There was nothing disabled about her

My daughter was told her third child had Downs as it showed up on the scan. They wanted her to have an abortion. She wanted to go ahead on the basis 'she did not feel qualified to play God!

It almost cost her, her marriage as the son-in-law did not want a Down child. Her, my wife and I had a plan drawn up how we would cope. Alas, it as all in veign, the child was born absolutely normal.

Just shows that you just do not know. How many normal children have been mis-diagnosed and killed by mistake

I agree, medical science is not perfect, and errors are often made. But children, even with severe Down Syndrome bring many blessings to us. It is not our decision, as Christians, to terminate their life before they are born. And for non-Christians, it should still not be considered a “right” to terminate an unborn child.

Sincerely,

Maria1212

 

[adventistnomore]

]
This is a misstatement of the facts. A committee gave guidance counsel. They are NOT THE ADVENTIST CHURCH!!! DO YOU FINALLY GET THE MESSAGE?!?!?!?!?!?!?

From the CONSTITUTION OF THE GENERAL CONFERENCE OF SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTISTS, Art. VIII, Sec. 1, a:

"During the intervals between Sessions of the General Conference, the Executive Committee is delegated the authority to act on behalf of the General Conference in session. The membership of the Executive Committee includes representatives of all the divisions of the world field and the presidents of all union conferences and union missions, and therefore speaks for the world Church. Major items affecting the world Church are considered at the Annual Council meetings of the Executive Committee, when all the members of the Committee are invited to be present. The authority, therefore, of the Executive Committee is the authority of the world Church."

Your accusation that we have been “bearing false witness” about the authority of this document are manifestly erroneous; I hope you will retract that charge. Remember, you’re not dealing with random Catholics; many of us were born and raised Adventists. Apparently, we know the church better than many of the Adventists on this forum.

Please retract your claim, and concede that you were mistaken on this point.

 

[jpeach]

I thought this was posted already but I don’t see it…
This was a very revealing thread about SDA’s view on abortion. And much of the discussion centered on whether there was an authoritative by SDA pronouncement about it. For one person it doesn’t really matter what the SDA Church leadership says; its the Bible that’s authoritative. This is simply Sole Scriptura, Bible Alone. In effect we become our own “Pope”. The assembly of God was enpowered by Jesus to bind and lose. Paul writes that the Church is the pillar and foundation of the truth (not E.G. White). (1 Tim 3: 15) But in the darkness of the slaughter of millions of unborn, a Church needs to pronounce something more definitive than abortion is ultimately a matter of personal conscience, which same logic could be applied to murder or slavery. Fully understanding GC is not an authoritative body next to the Bible…rather its just me, the “Pope” doing the interpreting.

 

[Arglaze]

Just couple of points. I’m an Adventist, but I trust that my catholic brothers and sisters whom I believe are most times more humble than my own will still hear my comment.

1. Yes, the SDA church is very anti roman catholic institution, but we have a good reason for it, which we can discuss in a different forum. That doesnt mean we hate Catholics, it just means that we disagree. to hate Catholics would mean to hate Christ, since u are also created in the image and likeness of our Maker.
2. On the abortion issue. Why would anyone want to force his/her will on anyone? I speak in behalf of the father, mother, and more importantly the voice who can’t defend himself, the baby. Of course the Adventist Church opposes abortion, Catholics don’t seem to have a problem with that part. The problem arises when we give exceptions for when to abort.
   Even Christ has pointed to exceptions to the rule. We can’t generalize something so sensitive with a ‘its never ok’ argument. Just like when there’s a time to save, there’s a time to take lives like Solomon says. No one in their right God given mind would want a baby to die, only a sick mind would take pleasure in doing something like that, even if its a special needs child. But that doesnt mean that everyone will have the conviction, character, courage, and patience it takes. So if God’s blessed u with those virtues, then great, but if someone doesnt have them and they don’t want to raise a child, or the preffer a baby to die to save the mother, or if that is the mother’s decision, then “let he who is without sin cast the first stone”. Because once that baby is born it will not be use caring for him.
3. The comment on murder vs kill. Yes, its a poor translation from the original Hebrew script. If it were not so, then God sins by destroying sinners in the Bible every time. To keep it as simple as I can. In the biblical context, Murder involves a selfish motive and a previous intent to kill someone. A baby that is aborted because you don’t feel like u want the responsibility for your mistake is murder. Kill involves taking a life as a result of a circumstance that is involuntary, out of your control, self defense, or to save someone, even if that means saving it from itself. God doesnt murder, he kills (always out of mercy, for he is love).
   so the real question is: is it morally right to kill a baby if that can save the mother, or if the baby is considerably damaged by disease, etc.? Believe it is, and I dare not condemn the mother or the trainned doctor whose job it is to save lives and aliviate pain. Leaving the mother to suffer and die is too inhumane, and cruel. But this case is so rare, that only the people present there can determine. And remember that all judgment is commuted to Jesus hands.

But for those who want the government to force their religious conviction on abortion, are just giving place to the Old Roman Catholic System. Catholics should limit themselves to share their faith and live up to the light they have, but condemning and accusing is the work of Satan. I’m not opposed however to a priest showing u by the scriptures what Heaven condems, because only God is Righteous. And I say this knowing that I disagree with almost 98% of what Catholics believe in

1. One last point. We don’t believe the Sabbath is more important than life. It is those who persecute and kill us for our Sabbath that believe life is of no value. We worship on the Sabbath to acknowledge Jesus as our maker. Others worship on Sunday to follow old traditions established by previous popes and emperors. If u think I’m making that up, ask a priest who knows catholic history. I know because I was raised on a catholic country where they forced me to take catholic classes in school.

Love and peace and may God bless u with all that your heart desires,

<>

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

From the CONSTITUTION OF THE GENERAL CONFERENCE OF SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTISTS, Art. VIII, Sec. 1, a:

"During the intervals between Sessions of the General Conference, the Executive Committee is delegated the authority to act on behalf of the General Conference in session. The membership of the Executive Committee includes representatives of all the divisions of the world field and the presidents of all union conferences and union missions, and therefore speaks for the world Church. Major items affecting the world Church are considered at the Annual Council meetings of the Executive Committee, when all the members of the Committee are invited to be present. The authority, therefore, of the Executive Committee is the authority of the world Church."

Your accusation that we have been “bearing false witness” about the authority of this document are manifestly erroneous; I hope you will retract that charge. Remember, you’re not dealing with random Catholics; many of us were born and raised Adventists. Apparently, we know the church better than many of the Adventists on this forum.

Please retract your claim, and concede that you were mistaken on this point.

Good morning all,

I was surprised to see this thread this morning, since I have not seen it before.

The official postion of the SDA church on abortion is definitely not pro-life. If it were, then the SDA church would take the official postion that abortion would only be allowed to save the life of the mother. Since this situation is the rarest of all abortions performed. The “squishy” guidelines of the SDA church on abortion, allows much room for performing abortions for just about any reason. And to allow the hospitals to use these guidelines to formulate their own policies regarding abortion swings the door wide open.

I know of what I speak. I was a Seventh-day Adventist, who knowing that abortions were being performed in the hospitals in the Columbia Union, took it upon myself to write to the Union President, and finally to the General Conference president back in the early 1990s. My purpose for writing was to urge these leaders to adopt a policy on abortion in our hospitals, that abortion would only be performed to save the life a mother. This would dramatically reduce the number of abortions performed in SDA hospitals, in Maryland, California, and world-wide.

The Union president politely blew off my first letter as pertaining to rumors which were not ture. I then obtained statistics on abortions performed in 3 area SDA hospitals. In a two year period there were approximately 2,000 abortions. The income from these was well over $1.5 million dollars. This is a very lucrative business, but not one in which a Christian church should be involved…especially one that makes such bold claims “to the Law…”.

I was acquainted with a pro-life OB/GYN who practiced in Arlington hospital in Virginia. This is a public, secular hospital that adopted the policy of only performing abortions to save the life of the mother. In the same time period there were approximately 7 to 14 abortions performed. Quite a stark difference.

As usual, when confronted with the facts that contradict cherished beliefs, even the SDA leaders chose to ignore my correspondence. There are a few others who have tried to work for changes in SDA church policy. One pastor, who was on the Columbia Union board resigned because of the SDA abortion stand.

I ran into a former SDA professor of mine a year or two ago, and he shared with me his efforts in opposing the SDA church stand on abortion. He was on television and radio with his message and the Potomac conference was not very happy with his work. He shared with me the view of Loma Linda ethicists as follows:

Loma Linda ethicists call unwanted pregnancies "recreational accidents(like happens when a person trips walking off of a curb)."

There are SDAs who are opposed to abortion, and have no idea what is going on in SDA hospitals, nor the danger caused by the SDA Church position on abortion.

It was this issue that led me to decide to no longer belong to the SDA church in 1994. My decision to join the Catholic Church was for other reasons, but I always admired the Catholic Church stand for life in opposition to abortion and unjust war. I plan to place my correspondence with the SDA church leaders as an appendix in a book I plan to write about my conversion to the Catholic Church having been a SDA. I only wish I had the knowledge and technology to post that correspondence here.

To all the SDAs who are opposed to abortion, continue to pray and work for change in your church’s policy…it is not Christian. I would be willing to give you any advice I can as to how to obtain hospital statistics if you have a SDA hospital in your conference.

God bless all!!

 

[imroc]

To comfort the mother? To spite her rapist? Do you seriously believe there is anything she could have done which would comfort her?

This is where I find alot of people falling short in faith. Your question is greatly disturbing and exemplifies a serious problem within Christianity.
We must walk in faith. We must live that faith out and accept the cross we’ve been handed at whatever worldly cost it may be. Your question essentially comes down to a leap of faith. Alot of Christians are living in faith until a relative crisis develops and lose their faith so much to the point that they look to worldly advise. I’m greatly saddened by your remark, yet I really think this is an issue that we must all pray on and seek God’s will. Life isn’t going to be peachy cuz your a Christian, my friend. You must pick up that cross…

I am talking about a woman who is not herself anymore, about an unrecognizable human being which does not wish to have any part in conceiving the child of her rapist. She would rather be dead then pregnant!

Then my answer to you (not that women, because it’s not just a dry statement that she needs to hear), is that we are to strip ourselves of the world and be clothed in Christ. MANY great saints have accepted their cross, bore it and lived life in acceptance of such. A few of which bore much worse crosses, I dare to say. The world and flesh are what we live in and for so many times and it will take great faith to live apart from these. But NOT a leap of faith. If she’d rather be dead than pregnant then there’s a serious lack of comtemplation in the will of God. It’s easy for us to try and look at the old testament and even the slaughter of jews by the nazis, but when it comes down to us as individuals, it’s a different story and how unbearable that story would be.

If you ever would have experienced something like this you would know that under which circumstances that decision is made and you would feel that mother’s horror which is beyond comprehension. Is this matter really so simplistic to you?

The matter is significant because I believe it was St. Paul who exclaimed that we do not do evil so good may come. It’s that simple. I think one of the great accomplishments of Satan has been to take advantage of the so-called protestant reformation by detatching christians from the acceptance humility and sufferering in order to be more sanctified in Christ our Lord. Even catholics in modern days are quick to look away from suffering due to the influences such as Joel Osteen.

Matthew 16
21 From that time on, Jesus began to show his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer greatly from the elders, the chief priests, and the scribes, and be killed and on the third day be raised. 22 Then Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him, “God forbid, Lord! No such thing shall ever happen to you.” 23 He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are an obstacle to me. You are thinking not as God does, but as human beings do.” 24 Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Whoever wishes to come after me must deny himself, take up his cross, and follow me. 25 For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will find it. 26 What profit would there be for one to gain the whole world and forfeit his life? Or what can one give in exchange for his life? 27 For the Son of Man will come with his angels in his Father’s glory, and then he will repay everyone according to his conduct. 28 Amen, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”

I hate to say it, but it’s simple to state. I approach with you with such words as to why we must stand firm in pro-life without exception. However, I pray that none of us would ever approach a women in such a crisis in this tact. We must practice pure faith, hope and love to comfort such a person. And in your faith may she recieve the graces that will be necessary for her to carry on such a burden.

 

[imroc]

a) “threats to the pregnant woman’s life” – how often does that occur? And would the critics really say that its more loving to kill both by not treating them? And, I’d ask the doctors is there any way that you could do a C-section and save the baby as well? It may not be possible and I’d be the last one, unlike some, who’d say that the doctor is a cold-hearted butcher looking to kill someone. We can ask the same question about the rest:

b) “serious jeopardy to her health”

I pray you read more about: Gianna Beretta Molla
I love these quotes especially:

“If you must choose between me and the baby, no hesitation; choose – and I demand it – the baby. Save him!”
“Also in suffering, let us say: Thanks be to God.”
"If one were to consider how much Jesus has suffered, one would not commit the smallest sin."

Also visit: Evangelium Vitae: Encyclical Letter on the Value and Inviolability of Human Life
His Holiness Pope John Paul II

c) “severe congenital defects carefully diagnosed in the fetus”

May I ask what would be done to this poor fetus if it had been born without detection of such congenital defects? Is it ok to kill the poor child then? Or is it only acceptable (and seemingly virtuous according to the general council) to kill the poor child in the sanctity of it’s mother’s womb?

 

[Sabbath_Keeper]

I now refer you to forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=277271 Post #23