Seventh Day Adventist Church and Abortion

[Patrick_Murebil]

Only after people wouldn’t let it go. But the church never voluntarily offered to do this until after the intervention of lawyers and politicians. A complete hypocrisy.
I don’t wanna single out Catholics only. My statement simply says that All churches are subject to these kind of things happening because we are humans. Catholics protect their own.

They didn’t open the threshold because they wanted to be nice about it, they were worried about what others might say. This happens in the RCC, it also happens everywhere.
That is planet earth.

Arglaze,

There is forgiveness for all who have particpated in abortions. There is forgiveness for the male who fathered the child and encouraged his partner that it would be ok to end the life their child. There is forgiveness for the doctor who violated his oath to preserve life and performed the procedure to end the life of a child. There is forgiveness for all the friends of the pregnant woman who encouraged her to end the life of her child. There is forgiveness for the parents and relatives of the pregnant woman who encouraged her to end the life of her child. And there is forgiveness for the woman, who for whatever reason, chose to end the life of her child.

There is forgiveness from God when we confess our sins and then we turn from them. There is forgiveness of all sins thanks to our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ and the love and mercy of God. There is forgiveness.

And only sins need to be forgiven, not righteousness. Sin is condemned, not righteousness.

The Church condemns sin, and leads sinners to the forgiveness offered through Jesus Christ. The Church does not condemn sinners, but works for their salvation by leading them to the Saviour, and as God’s servant ministers to the reconciling of sinners with God.

There is forgiveness. For participating in abortion, rape, lying, stealing, hypocrisy, child abuse, and the list goes on and on and is as long as the billions of people on this planet.

There is forgiveness. For priests, pastors, politicians, bureaucrats, doctors, lawyers, plumbers, farmers, truck drivers, neighbors, family memebers, free loaders, sinners, me, and you.

There is forgiveness.

There is forgiveness.

There is forgiveness Arglaze.

God bless all!!!

 

[Maria1212]

I stand on God’s Word and that alone. .

Dear Arglaze,

I recommend you read the book A Biblical Defense of Catholicism by Dave Armstrong. As I have stated numerous times on this thread, far from straying from what the Bible teaches, Catholicism is thoroughly Biblical and is the only Christian religion in full conformity with what the Bible says.

Why dont you get copy and we can discuss it on a new thread. If your local library does not have a copy, the library at a local Catholic Church might have a copy you can borrow. I promise we dont bite!

Sincerely,

Maria1212

 

[Stephen_Korsman]

Since you bring that up.

If a national Sunday Law passes that forces everyone to worship on Sunday, then reconsider on which side you are standing, because we will not be the ones hunting people for their day of worship with guns. I’d rather be called crazy now and see you in heaven some day, than not be called crazy and loosing a soul for God. I’m willing to give my life for that cause.

If it doesn’t occur, then feel free to say of us as you please.
Anyone reading this, mark our words.

It would be wrong for us to persecute you for keeping the wrong day. It’s hard to imagine, though, that such a law would be passed.

What isn’t hard to imagine is that the Adventist church would sanction the death of innocent humans under certain convenient circumstances. It’s not hard to imagine, because the Adventist church already does.

If it is antiChrist to persecute those who worship in Saturday, it can only be more antiChrist to persecute the unborn. So when the National Sunday Law comes about (in whatever parallel universe), Adventism will still have no moral high ground.

 

[Sabbath_Keeper]

Hi Maria,

As I thought about what SabbathKeeper said yesterday regarding those statistics being 20 years old, the thought occured to me to try and obtain some more statistics that are updated. When I initially contacted the compturer center, the man who sent me the report was kind and did not charge me for the first two years. When I call for 1993 statistics, he gave me the first 6 months of the year, which was all he had at the time, and told me that if I called him again he would have to charge me. Receiving those statistics was an answer to prayer at that time, I had no money to pay for those reports.

God bless all!!!

Sorry it has taken me so long to respond to all the posts, and I see that there are quite a few since the last time I was able to access this forum.

Patrick, I applaude your efforts to get current facts and stats. this is very commendable. If it were within my power to do so I would contribute to your efforts financially, however, as my situation percludes my doing so please accept my prayerful support for I to would be interested in what you discover on this matter. Howbeit, I still stand by the accertion that each of us are endowed with the God given, shall we say responsibility instead of right, to choose according to our on conscience, even if that choice violates the will of God, for we were not created as automatons to mimic a love for God but we were created with a freewill so that we may expound a true love for God.

We live in a world where not everyone believes in God in the same way and there are those who do not believe in God at all. Are we to impose our beliefs and our morals on these people? Will we trample on their conscienousnesses in favor of what we know to be truth? As has been stated over and over again, it is not the intent of the SDA movement to condemn those who make choices contrary to the will of God. Their choices must be reconned (sp) with eventually at the Judgment, but we are not to judge them today, all we can do is council to the best of our ability, which is what the SDA movement stipulates in its statements concerning this issue.

Abortion, in my personal view is wrong, however, I cannot in all due conscience force my beliefs on anybody, even if those beliefs are no alignment with the will of God, for it is he who it is that gave all men, and as can be seen in the actions of Satan, and all Angels ffee will to choose right or wrong.

Again, may God be with you in endevouring to obtain the stats you are seeking.

 

[Sabbath_Keeper]

I respectfully disagree with you. I could make the same claim that Catholics only take some parts of the Scripture, and not the whole. Moreover, Catholics hold the principles taught by the priests as similar and in some cases above the Word of God.]

I understand you disagree. I am trying to explain why we believe what we believe. It is the Holy Spririts job to change another persons mind. However, it is not true that Catholics put what a priest says above the Word of God. Catholic teaching NEVER contradicts or violates the Word of God.

On this point you need to research the dogmas a little more concerning the position of the RCC on this matter. From my understanding and study of church documents and history the RCC claims authority over the scriptures due to their being the ones to have compliles those same scriptures into a viable consolidated document vis a vis the Bible. It is also claimed that Tradition has greater pressident then scripture and therefore scripture, for all entents and purposes, falls third in the line of authoritative dogma for the RCC.

As to your claim that the RCC has not contradictory teachings concerning the Word of God, there are more contradictions then I can count of both of my hands, however, this is all off topic but I found it important to respond, start another theard and I will elaborate.

You insistance on condemning all SDA movement because of its position concerning the free will of all mankind, and this is what this discussion amounts to, lacks the love of Christ. You continually misunderstand and prejudge that which you not only do not understand, but refuse to understand, which in itself is sinful by nature. I am not here to judge you, only God is accorded that perrogative, nor would I or do I want to be your judge.

**
I believe there are exceptions for abortions when I read the Bible as a whole. Not everything is black and white.**

God`s commandments are black and white. There are no exceptions.

This could be said of all God’s commandments, yet throughout history the RCC leadership has allowed exceptions when it has suited their desires in contradiction to God’s commandments.

Catholics may not believe it’s ok to abort an unborn child. Good for you. But God doesn’t condemn with hell anyone else for doing so when there’s a just reason. Like on rape, and babies that are born with extreme congenital defects. Why bring that baby up like that? so that the RCC can have more members?

Christians with an accurate understanding of Gods commandment know it is never okay to murder an unborn child. Catholics are Christian, but many of our non-Catholic Protestant brothers and sisters have this same understanding. Many Jews are also pro-life based on the teachings of the Torah. The Pro-life movement is not a uniquely Catholic movement. It is made of of people of all faiths who understand that abortion terminates the life of another human being. But as a Catholic, there are no exceptions to our Lords teachings. Adventists obviously insert their own exceptions, or they would not permit abortion. But to reiterate, our Lord decides when life starts and when it ends. To decide on our own and kill the life of another is a violation of our Lord`s teaching.

As there are Catholics and Protestants that hold the same view concerning Abortion so also are there those that hold that everyone has a God given responsibility to choose as their conscience deems. This is not and exlusive SDA position, as you make it sound. Nor do numbers of supporters or desenters make a position right or wrong. I wonder what sort of punishments you invision for those who violate the doctrines of the RCC, not just this position but all?

Your statement that Catholics are against abortion to “get more members” is offensive and appalling.
.

Absolutely uncalled for.

 

[Sabbath_Keeper]

=Arglaze;4360574]But Go ahead and condemn with hellfire all those who do.In regards to the many complicated cases and very complex moral situations, the Catholic church is plainly wrong. And I will say that to the Pope’s face if he were in front of me.

As to contraditions I refer to the previous post. However, the Pope claims to be able to absolve sins and therefore, if he can absolve he can condemn, afterall that is what excommunication is all about, for in the RCC to excommunicate is the same as comdemnation. You may not be able to condemn anybody but the RCC claims this authority “what you lose, what you bid” paraphrasing here.

As a Christian it is your duty to inform the lost of Christ’s sacrifice for them and reveal his love to them by being an example. Do you show that by condemning or by showing mercy and kindness?

---

The RCC dares accuse women that abort, but dares not submit child rapists to face justice. I can’t respect that.****

Off topic

The Catholic Church does not permit the murder of unborn children.

I suggest you read “Fox’s Book of Martyrs” before you make this sort of comment.

The Church treats women who have had abortions with compassion and ministers to them to help them heal. Check out this website for more info. rachelsvineyard.org/

Any site that can administer to those who are considering or have obtained an abortion, from what ever source, I believe if welcome.

But again, murder of unborn children, violates Gods commandments, not that of the current Pope. Catholic doctrine/teaching never contradicts the Word of God. And it never changes. Thus the Catholic Church will never permit abortion. It is Gods teaching, and that is the reason why.

It has often been said that one should never speak in absolutes. The RCC has contradicted the Word of God and I do not believe it has never permitted abortion, no matter what you may have been told.

***The only authority I respect is the Word of God.
The commandment is not Kill as in just taking life. The commandment is “Thou Shalt not Murder” and what God sent Israel to do to those babies was not murder, it was killing.

---

By respecting the Word of God, you respect the authority of the Catholic Church, although you may not realize it. Check out the history of the Bible and where it came from. It didn`t just fall out of the sky. You have the Catholic Church to thank for preserving the written word of God for 2,000 years.

I’m really getting tired of this argument. The scriptures were written BEFORE the RCC ever compiled them. The Old testement was written long before the Church ever existed and was preserved by the JEWS not the Christians. The Old Testament is still in possession of the JEWS and therefore the Church would not have needed to try to preserve them for they would still be available to us through the JEWS.

The New Testament was written in the early church by the apostles. The letters were duplicated and passed among the other churches throughout the Roman Empire. Granted, the Apostles also taught by word of mouth, but, as you are so fond of stating over and over again, they would not have contradicted anything they had written, therefore the written word of the Apostles, by the guidance of the HS, is as valid today as it was when it was first given, and contains more authority than tradition due to the fact that man, in his sinful and wanton nature, tends to corrupt, through Satan, everything he touches.

As a side note, and please take this in the loving manner it is intended, I find it disconcerting that the RCs have become very arrogant concerning their faith. They seem to ignore the scriptures which warn us about becoming to selfcentered in our faith that we think we can do no wrong and that we will always be in God’s good graces. This is not the case, for, as God pruned away the dead branches and grafted in the new he can also cut away those same grafted in ones and cast them into the fire as well. Do not blindly follow without questioning for to do so you may be lead into a pit.

God Bless

 

[Arglaze]

Dear Arglaze,

I recommend you read the book A Biblical Defense of Catholicism by Dave Armstrong. As I have stated numerous times on this thread, far from straying from what the Bible teaches, Catholicism is thoroughly Biblical and is the only Christian religion in full conformity with what the Bible says.

Why dont you get copy and we can discuss it on a new thread. If your local library does not have a copy, the library at a local Catholic Church might have a copy you can borrow. I promise we dont bite!

Sincerely,

Maria1212

Sure, read yourself the book “The Great Controversy” by Ellen White, and I’d b more than glad to read yours. Any SDA church near you might have a copy.

AG

 

[Maria1212]

Sure, read yourself the book “The Great Controversy” by Ellen White, and I’d b more than glad to read yours. Any SDA church near you might have a copy.

AG

I am more than familiar with Ellen Whites writings already but thank you for the recommendation. I enjoy reading that literature/books and articles that argue something I dont already agree with. I am not afraid to question my assumptions, or to ask myself why I believe what I believe. That is why I have read the writings of the early Christian fathers, the history of where we got the Bible and why the Protestant Bible has less books etc. I have read books by people of all faith. That has only increased my faith. I am never afraid to read what the “the critics” have to say. My Catholic teachers always recommended we study other faiths, and study what nonbelievers have to say about Catholicism. It helps you come to a more mature understanding of your own beliefs.

Since you think Catholicism is so unbiblical, I strongly recommend you read that book. At minimum, it will help you understand why Catholics believe what they do. Because if you engage in dialogue with us, you need accurate understanding of our faith and what it is we actually believe, And you need to know why we believe what we believe.

Don`t be afraid to read the book I recommended. Especially if you are so sure you are right. My invitation to read and discuss the book is extended to everyone on this thread but I am sure we will both learn a lot even if it is just us.

Sincerely,

Maria1212

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

Sorry it has taken me so long to respond to all the posts, and I see that there are quite a few since the last time I was able to access this forum.

Patrick, I applaude your efforts to get current facts and stats. this is very commendable. If it were within my power to do so I would contribute to your efforts financially, however, as my situation percludes my doing so please accept my prayerful support for I to would be interested in what you discover on this matter.

Hello SabbathKeeper,
I never really expected a financial contribution from you…I was trying to be humorous (which is difficult enough for me in the first place, let alone trying to make that transition in this format)

Facts are an important part of arriving at the truth. Faith is an even more important part of arriving at The Truth.

Howbeit, I still stand by the accertion that each of us are endowed with the God given, shall we say responsibility instead of right, to choose according to our on conscience, even if that choice violates the will of God, for we were not created as automatons to mimic a love for God but we were created with a freewill so that we may expound a true love for God.

How about we say that God gives us the “freedom” to choose according to our own conscience and desires, rather than a “right” or a “responsibility”. And in that freedom to make choices, we can make choices that are right (righteous), or wrong (sinful). The phrase “freedom to choose” seems more in line with the freewill that you mention above.

We live in a world where not everyone believes in God in the same way and there are those who do not believe in God at all. Are we to impose our beliefs and our morals on these people? Will we trample on their conscienousnesses in favor of what we know to be truth?.

I agree with what you say above and that we are not to use coercion, force, or imposition, to place our morals on others. I don’t think we should trample anyone to teach our beliefs to others or to stand up for them ourselves.

As has been stated over and over again, it is not the intent of the SDA movement to condemn those who make choices contrary to the will of God. Their choices must be reconned (sp) with eventually at the Judgment, but we are not to judge them today, all we can do is council to the best of our ability, which is what the SDA movement stipulates in its statements concerning this issue.

As a former SDA I agree with you that it is not the intent of the SDA church to condemn sinners, nor be the final judge of their actions. I agree with you that counseling people who seek help in this matter, or any other moral issue they are dealing with, is good.

Would you agree with me that it is the responsibility of a Christian organization to not provide the means and opportunities for people to make choices that are against the teachings of Jesus which would lead them into sinful acts?

Abortion, in my personal view is wrong, however, I cannot in all due conscience force my beliefs on anybody, even if those beliefs are no alignment with the will of God, for it is he who it is that gave all men, and as can be seen in the actions of Satan, and all Angels ffee will to choose right or wrong.

Again, may God be with you in endevouring to obtain the stats you are seeking.

I am glad that you believe abortion is wrong. And I appreciate your desire to not force your beliefs on anybody. Having read many of your other posts, I believe you when you say that.

But let me ask you a couple questions about providing or withholding those things that you believe are wrong that other people may think are right and ok to do, so as to not interfere with their right to make freewill choices.

We all agree that abortions, for some reasons, are allowed in SDA hospitals. One of the reasons for why you defend this is because you do not want to impose or force your principles on others who may not have arrived at that place where you are spiritually in your relationship with God. And I respect your position.

So based on SDA teaching and beliefs, would you be in favor of allowing the following things into SDA hospitals and institutions since there are those people who freely make the choice for them? Would be in favor of providing access to the following in SDA hospitals and institutions to allow others to exercise their freewill? Even if you counseled them against it before hand and they still wanted access to the following?:

1. Tobacco
2. Alcohol
3. Pork, shellfish, etc.
4. Pornographic materials

If yes, then you are at least consistent in your philosophy. If no, then I’d love to know why?

God bless all!!!

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

Since you bring that up.

If a national Sunday Law passes that forces everyone to worship on Sunday, then reconsider on which side you are standing, because we will not be the ones hunting people for their day of worship with guns. I’d rather be called crazy now and see you in heaven some day, than not be called crazy and loosing a soul for God. I’m willing to give my life for that cause.

If it doesn’t occur, then feel free to say of us as you please.
Anyone reading this, mark our words.

Arglaze,

Perhaps you can clear up some confusion for me. You mention the National Sunday Law and people being hunted down with guns who will not agree to be forced to worship on Sunday.

As a former SDA I used to believe that sabbath/saturday keeping was important, as you seem to express above, and that it would be a matter of salvation as to whether or not “people obeyed God and kept saturday or obeyed man and kept sunday.”

I brought that up in another thread in one of my many “energetic” conversations with Protestant101 (see forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=247591&page=17)).

I referenced the official SDA website that talks about the sabbath being a “special test” at the end of time, a quote from Ellen White who stated that it meant eternal life to keep the sabbath, and three entire chapters from “The Great Controversy” which you suggested that Maria1212 read.

Protestant101 assured me that I was “cherry picking” the things I referenced, and that the SDA church does not teach these things any more…and since the majority of my references were entire chapters from the Great Controversy…and I always believed what I asserted…can you tell me if the SDA church still believes what EGW wrote, or has the church really changed that much in since 1994?

Thanks in advance for your answer.

God bless all!!!

 

[Sabbath_Keeper]

Hello SabbathKeeper,
I never really expected a financial contribution from you…I was trying to be humorous (which is difficult enough for me in the first place, let alone trying to make that transition in this format)

Facts are an important part of arriving at the truth. Faith is an even more important part of arriving at The Truth.

Thanks for letting me off the hook.
Yes facts are important, that’s why I requested more current info.

How about we say that God gives us the “freedom” to choose according to our own conscience and desires, rather than a “right” or a “responsibility”. And in that freedom to make choices, we can make choices that are right (righteous), or wrong (sinful). The phrase “freedom to choose” seems more in line with the freewill that you mention above.

Exactly, we are therefore in agreement.

I agree with what you say above and that we are not to use coercion, force, or imposition, to place our morals on others. I don’t think we should trample anyone to teach our beliefs to others

or to stand up for them ourselves.

I’m not understanding this. Are you saying we shouldn’t stand up for what we believe? If that’s the case, what spread God’s truth? I’m confused.

As a former SDA I agree with you that it is not the intent of the SDA church to condemn sinners, nor be the final judge of their actions. I agree with you that counseling people who seek help in this matter, or any other moral issue they are dealing with, is good.

Would you agree with me that it is the responsibility of a Christian organization to not provide the means and opportunities for people to make choices that are against the teachings of Jesus which would lead them into sinful acts?

I would say it is the responsibility of an organization to evaluate the each situation according to the problems and difficulties presented before judging whether an sinful act is being committed. To participate in a willful act of sin with full knowledge that that act is a sinful act I would not support.

Now I pose a question to you. Is it appropriate for a member of an organization to challenge the dictates of its leadership when that member discovers errors within that organization and for that member to expect a just and fair hearing concerning his/her discoveries without prejudice or malice?

I am glad that you believe abortion is wrong. And I appreciate your desire to not force your beliefs on anybody. Having read many of your other posts, I believe you when you say that.

But let me ask you a couple questions about providing or withholding those things that you believe are wrong that other people may think are right and ok to do, so as to not interfere with their right to make freewill choices.

We all agree that abortions, for some reasons, are allowed in SDA hospitals. One of the reasons for why you defend this is because you do not want to impose or force your principles on others who may not have arrived at that place where you are spiritually in your relationship with God. And I respect your position.

So based on SDA teaching and beliefs, would you be in favor of allowing the following things into SDA hospitals and institutions since there are those people who freely make the choice for them? Would be in favor of providing access to the following in SDA hospitals and institutions to allow others to exercise their freewill? Even if you counseled them against it before hand and they still wanted access to the following?:

1. Tobacco
2. Alcohol

I think these two points are mute as there are laws which govern these in all the states and by which hospitals today are obliged to follow. However, if these laws were not enforce, I would have to say no I would not support these, not because of religious beliefs but because of health concerns.

Cont.

 

[Sabbath_Keeper]

1. Pork, shellfish, etc.

1. Pornographic materials

I believe that all religious institutions should be allowed to determing what types of media materials should not allowed within thier facilities. Then of course there is a fine line to be drawn concerning what is considered pornography and what is not. Most so called “Romance” novels I would consider pronographic by nature, but most mainstream American woman do not, at least the ones that read them don’t. And you will find those that read them have no quams in reading them openly and in full view of whomever is around.

Saying that, again, a persons choice to sin or not to sin is between them and God. I would imagine even in an institution that forbids these types of materials within there confines someone, someway, somehow, will find means to sneak in and hide said materials if at all possible.

As someone who used to be addicted to Pornography I oppose this medium with all my heart and soul. If at all possible I would outlaw it. But that would impose laws contrary to the Free Speech Articles of the Constitution as defined by the Judicial System of this country. As a Christian I must abide by the laws of those appointed over me. I don’t have to, however, avail myself of these materials eventhough these authorities say I have a “right” to them. This is what seperates the saved from the lost, knowing to do right and doing it.

Should a patient be allowed pornographic materials within the confines of a health establishment. The constitution says yes. So until the constitution is changed or until such laws are passed to restrict or outlaw pornography the patients rights have presidence over the hospital administrations rules, as much as I would like to disagree.

If yes, then you are at least consistent in your philosophy. If no, then I’d love to know why?

God bless all!!!

We are stuck between a rock and a hard place. We are God’s people living in an unGodly world, by the rules of the unGodly. All we can do is rely on the HS and the Grace of God to see us through until our Lord returns to vindicate us. Until then we must presevere as best we can.

 

[Sabbath_Keeper]

1. Pork, shellfish, etc

1. Pornographic materials

I believe that all religious institutions should be allowed to determing what types of media materials should not allowed within thier facilities. Then of course there is a fine line to be drawn concerning what is considered pornography and what is not. Most so called “Romance” novels I would consider pronographic by nature, but most mainstream American woman do not, at least the ones that read them don’t. And you will find those that read them have no quams in reading them openly and in full view of whomever is around.

Saying that, again, a persons choice to sin or not to sin is between them and God. I would imagine even in an institution that forbids these types of materials within there confines someone, someway, somehow, will find means to sneak in and hide said materials if at all possible.

As someone who used to be addicted to Pornography I oppose this medium with all my heart and soul. If at all possible I would outlaw it. But that would impose laws contrary to the Free Speech Articles of the Constitution as defined by the Judicial System of this country. As a Christian I must abide by the laws of those appointed over me. I don’t have to, however, avail myself of these materials eventhough these authorities say I have a “right” to them. This is what seperates the saved from the lost, knowing to do right and doing it.

Should a patient be allowed pornographic materials within the confines of a health establishment. The constitution says yes. So until the constitution is changed or until such laws are passed to restrict or outlaw pornography the patients rights have presidence over the hospital administrations rules, as much as I would like to disagree.

If yes, then you are at least consistent in your philosophy. If no, then I’d love to know why?

God bless all!!!

We are stuck between a rock and a hard place. We are God’s people living in an unGodly world, by the rules of the unGodly. All we can do is rely on the HS and the Grace of God to see us through until our Lord returns to vindicate us. Until then we must presevere as best we can.

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

Thanks for letting me off the hook.
Yes facts are important, that’s why I requested more current info.

Hi SabbathKeeper,

We’re all off the hook!! The man was kind enough to supply 2 years worth of stats at no charge!! Praise God that He can answer a prayer that quickly!! (Everyone who prayed about this, please remember to say a prayer of thanksgiving!!) I asked about charges, and they are $200.00 per year…so Praise God!!!

I will post them as soon as I can!!

I’m not understanding this. Are you saying we shouldn’t stand up for what we believe? If that’s the case, what spread God’s truth? I’m confused.

WHAT??? Confused by my unedited ramblings??? Well…me too…what was the question?

No, all I meant to say is that when we stand up for our beliefs, which we should, we should do so with love…Christian love…the Love of God…and mannnnn that can be a test on these threads at times. Thank God for prayer, forgiveness, and reconciliation!!

I would say it is the responsibility of an organization to evaluate the each situation according to the problems and difficulties presented before judging whether an sinful act is being committed. To participate in a willful act of sin with full knowledge that that act is a sinful act I would not support.

I agree that commiting a willful act of sin is sin. I agree that not knowing something is sinful changes the situation.

But a Christian organization should know what is sinful…they should have had some time to think about that since they are a Christian organization.

It would seem to be the duty of the Christian organization in evaluating each situation, especially in the counseling phase, to point out to the person being counseled that what they are about to do is sin, and will carry with it consequences both here on earth and for eternity.

For example:

1. Someone comes to a minister, priest, lay Christian, and says, so&so stole something from me. I want to go kill him. Would the Christian person’s response be to evaluate that situation and give any advice other than “NO DON’T DO THAT”?
2. Someone comes to a minister, priest, lay Christian and says “My wife won’t have sex with me, so I am going to go and have sex with women who are not my wife.” Would the Christian person’s response be to evaluate that situation and give any advice other than “NO DON’T DO THAT”?
3. Someone comes to a minister, priest, lay Christian ans says “I’m pregnant, and this is not a good time for me to have a baby, so I think I’m going to get an abortion.” What is the response of the Christian person now?

Now I pose a question to you. Is it appropriate for a member of an organization to challenge the dictates of its leadership when that member discovers errors within that organization and for that member to expect a just and fair hearing concerning his/her discoveries without prejudice or malice?

I believe that not only is it appropriate to bring to the attention of an organization’s leadership, sinful behaviour that is going on in that organization, it is the duty of a Christian to do so. And to do so with love as Jesus would.

Having been involved before in bringing problems to the attention of organization leadership, I would have to say that you can expect a just and fair hearing without prejudice or malice…but dont be surprised or disappointed if you don’t receive that.

I think these two points are mute as there are laws which govern these in all the states and by which hospitals today are obliged to follow. However, if these laws were not enforce, I would have to say no I would not support these, not because of religious beliefs but because of health concerns.

That is a fair answer. But don’t be willing to compromise your principles, even if they are not because of religious beliefs, just because the laws of the land say that violation of your principles is legal. You are NOT obliged to follow any law of the land that conflicts with God’s Law. You may suffer earthly penalties for not following the law of the land, you may even be martyred…but you are not obliged to follow man’s law if it contradicts God’s law.

That is why I was motivated to keep saturday holy at one time, rather than compromise.

God bless all!!!

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

QUOTE=Patrick Murebil;433. Pork, shellfish, etc

Yes I know what you mean. I just don’t think the government should dictate how a private organization performs its work. If SDA hospitals prefer to serve healthy food, the government should not be able to force them to do otherwise.

I believe that all religious institutions should be allowed to determing what types of media materials should not allowed within thier facilities. Then of course there is a fine line to be drawn concerning what is considered pornography and what is not. Most so called “Romance” novels I would consider pronographic by nature, but most mainstream American woman do not, at least the ones that read them don’t. And you will find those that read them have no quams in reading them openly and in full view of whomever is around.

Again my point is that a religious organization has the right/duty to prohibit access to those things they find disagreeabe, offensive, and sinful, no matter whether they are legal or not. If the government legalized herion tomorrow, I would not use it nor would I recommend or provide it for others to use.

Saying that, again, a persons choice to sin or not to sin is between them and God. I would imagine even in an institution that forbids these types of materials within there confines someone, someway, somehow, will find means to sneak in and hide said materials if at all possible.

As someone who used to be addicted to Pornography I oppose this medium with all my heart and soul. If at all possible I would outlaw it. But that would impose laws contrary to the Free Speech Articles of the Constitution as defined by the Judicial System of this country. As a Christian I must abide by the laws of those appointed over me. I don’t have to, however, avail myself of these materials eventhough these authorities say I have a “right” to them. This is what seperates the saved from the lost, knowing to do right and doing it.

Should a patient be allowed pornographic materials within the confines of a health establishment. The constitution says yes. So until the constitution is changed or until such laws are passed to restrict or outlaw pornography the patients rights have presidence over the hospital administrations rules, as much as I would like to disagree.

People will always find ways to go against the rules of an organization and sneak in porn, alcohol, cigarettes, etc., just as doctors may find ways to “sneak” abortions.

Just because some people will find ways to smoke, drink, pornogate (is that a word?), abort, steal, rape, muder, etc., does not mean that religious organizations should provide the means, or promote the activity of these things which are immoral, not matter whether or not they are legal.

We are stuck between a rock and a hard place. We are God’s people living in an unGodly world, by the rules of the unGodly. All we can do is rely on the HS and the Grace of God to see us through until our Lord returns to vindicate us. Until then we must presevere as best we can.

Yes we are stuck…and AMEN to relying on God and His Grace and to perservering…but brother, as God’s people we are not bound to live by the rules of the unGodly.

There is a better way…even here in this world!!!

God bless all!!!

 

[Sabbath_Keeper]

Yes I know what you mean. I just don’t think the government should dictate how a private organization performs its work. If SDA hospitals prefer to serve healthy food, the government should not be able to force them to do otherwise.

And the same should be said of providing abortions as well. It should be upto the policies of the hospital administration to determine what they will and will not do concerning this issue. Unfortunately, the governments of the world are tending more and more to force this upon those hospitals that prefer not to participate. Sadly, health care for all is being jeopardized because of it.

Again my point is that a religious organization has the right/duty to prohibit access to those things they find disagreeabe, offensive, and sinful, no matter whether they are legal or not. If the government legalized herion tomorrow, I would not use it nor would I recommend or provide it for others to use.

Nor would I, however, that does not preclude the “legal” right, though it be a moral wrong, for others to do so. And if a government made it a requirement that a health facility were to supply or acquiese to the “needs” of those who partake of that form of death, then we again have the same situation as stated above.

People will always find ways to go against the rules of an organization and sneak in porn, alcohol, cigarettes, etc., just as doctors may find ways to “sneak” abortions.

Again I agree, as to sneaking abortions, we know that this is already happening so that the statistics are skewed. Which brings me to the point of what would happen if forbidding abortions completely came into effect? Would we once again return to the back alley abortions of not so long ago wherein the survival rates were doubtful? There is no way of telling what the abortion rate was at that time so statistical comparisons cannot be made, but would you rather have someone at least go through counciling without free of being targeted as a law breaking then and having them possibley choosing to not abort then to abort without the option of counsiling? For myself, I would rather they at least be given an intelligent choose through compassionate discourse than down right legal condemnation.

Just because some people will find ways to smoke, drink,

pornogate (is that a word?),

I love it abort,

steal, rape, muder, etc., does not mean that religious organizations should provide the means, or promote the activity of these things which are immoral, not matter whether or not they are legal.

And you are correct, I concede. And I also agree that this sort of thing needs to be brought up to the leaders of any organization that does this and a clarification on these policies should be made to all the laity. However, we also need to remember, not all who claim to be of a particular faith are truly of that faith. Each faith has its apostates, hypocrites and whatever other name one wishes to apply. As for me, you alread know my views, I can only do what I can do through the Grace of God and Pray.

Yes we are stuck…and AMEN to relying on God and His Grace and to perservering…but brother, as God’s people we are not bound to live by the rules of the unGodly.

There is a better way…even here in this world!!!

God bless all!!!

Yes there is a better way, but we also need to be aware of what is going on around us. Not only with in our own countries, but with in our perspective faiths and communities as well as other countries, faiths and communities. We now live an a world were a diversity of forces are working together and against one another to bring about what these forces believe to be the end of turmoil and eventually result in a “utopian society” here on earth. And most wish to do it without God, thus the unGodly world we live in.

 

[Sabbath_Keeper]

Sorry but I got these out of order, my bad…

Hi SabbathKeeper,

We’re all off the hook!! The man was kind enough to supply 2 years worth of stats at no charge!! Praise God that He can answer a prayer that quickly!! (Everyone who prayed about this, please remember to say a prayer of thanksgiving!!) I asked about charges, and they are $200.00 per year…so Praise God!!!

I will post them as soon as I can!!

WHAT??? Confused by my unedited ramblings??? Well…me too…what was the question?

No, all I meant to say is that when we stand up for our beliefs, which we should, we should do so with love…Christian love…the Love of God…and mannnnn that can be a test on these threads at times. Thank God for prayer, forgiveness, and reconciliation!!

Agreed

I agree that commiting a willful act of sin is sin. I agree that not knowing something is sinful changes the situation.

But a Christian organization should know what is sinful…they should have had some time to think about that since they are a Christian organization.

It would seem to be the duty of the Christian organization in evaluating each situation, especially in the counseling phase, to point out to the person being counseled that what they are about to do is sin, and will carry with it consequences both here on earth and for eternity.

For example:

1. Someone comes to a minister, priest, lay Christian, and says, so&so stole something from me. I want to go kill him. Would the Christian person’s response be to evaluate that situation and give any advice other than “NO DON’T DO THAT”?
2. Someone comes to a minister, priest, lay Christian and says “My wife won’t have sex with me, so I am going to go and have sex with women who are not my wife.” Would the Christian person’s response be to evaluate that situation and give any advice other than “NO DON’T DO THAT”?
3. Someone comes to a minister, priest, lay Christian ans says “I’m pregnant, and this is not a good time for me to have a baby, so I think I’m going to get an abortion.” What is the response of the Christian person now?

“NO DON’T DO THAT.”

“Why, It’s not convenient for me to have this baby.”

“Convenience is NOT a viable reason for aborting a baby. Look what has been created. If you don’t want the baby there are those who do, give it birth and allow others to nurture it.”

That is the proper response. Your scenerio is very simplistic.

I believe that not only is it appropriate to bring to the attention of an organization’s leadership, sinful behaviour that is going on in that organization, it is the duty of a Christian to do so. And to do so with love as Jesus would.

Having been involved before in bringing problems to the attention of organization leadership, I would have to say that you can expect a just and fair hearing without prejudice or malice…but dont be surprised or disappointed if you don’t receive that.

I don’t mean to be judgmental, please do take this as such, this is historical. This has not been, nor does it appear to be the way the RCC handles those who bring to light those doctrines which MAY NOT be in line with what Christ or the Apostles taught.

That is a fair answer. But don’t be willing to compromise your principles, even if they are not because of religious beliefs, just because the laws of the land say that violation of your principles is legal. You are NOT obliged to follow any law of the land that conflicts with God’s Law. You may suffer earthly penalties for not following the law of the land, you may even be martyred…but you are not obliged to follow man’s law if it contradicts God’s law.

“Knowing to do right and not doing it is sin.” This I agree with.

That is why I was motivated to keep saturday holy at one time, rather than compromise.

God bless all!!!

And I, of course, am still convinced that it still should be. (After over 50 years of not)

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

And the same should be said of providing abortions as well. It should be upto the policies of the hospital administration to determine what they will and will not do concerning this issue. Unfortunately, the governments of the world are tending more and more to force this upon those hospitals that prefer not to participate. Sadly, health care for all is being jeopardized because of it.

I agree! And since abortion is legal in this country, every hospital has legal protection to provide abortions. I just don’t think Christian hospitals should be involved in that business. There are plenty of other hospitals and clinics around that do provide abortions. We won’t be missed if we withdraw from that business.

Nor would I, however, that does not preclude the “legal” right, though it be a moral wrong, for others to do so. And if a government made it a requirement that a health facility were to supply or acquiese to the “needs” of those who partake of that form of death, then we again have the same situation as stated above.

I agree! And once again Christian hospitals should not participate, and Christians should work to keep a government requirement such as that out of our church hospitals.

Again I agree, as to sneaking abortions, we know that this is already happening so that the statistics are skewed. Which brings me to the point of what would happen if forbidding abortions completely came into effect? Would we once again return to the back alley abortions of not so long ago wherein the survival rates were doubtful? There is no way of telling what the abortion rate was at that time so statistical comparisons cannot be made, but would you rather have someone at least go through counciling without free of being targeted as a law breaking then and having them possibley choosing to not abort then to abort without the option of counsiling? For myself, I would rather they at least be given an intelligent choose through compassionate discourse than down right legal condemnation.

I agree with you that if abortions were made illeagal, as they once were in our country, people may choose the option of seeking out illeagal abortions. This may lead to a doctor’s office “after hours”, a patient’s home, or even a back alley.

But remember, that is that person’s choice at that time too. No one would be forced to break the law. That person is most likely making the choice to end her pregnancy outside the law, not being “forced” into a back alley to have an abortion (although I do not rule out the possibility of an evil person forcing a weak, pregnant, scared woman to obtain an abortion).

I agree that counseling is so very important for someone with an unexpected pregnancy and is considering ending it. It is not a crime to get pregnant, although a pregnancy could be the result of a crime. Even after counseling a choice may be made to end the pregnancy, but as Christians we should always counsel people to choose life.

And you are correct, I concede. And I also agree that this sort of thing needs to be brought up to the leaders of any organization that does this and a clarification on these policies should be made to all the laity. However, we also need to remember, not all who claim to be of a particular faith are truly of that faith. Each faith has its apostates, hypocrites and whatever other name one wishes to apply. As for me, you alread know my views, I can only do what I can do through the Grace of God and Pray

.

I agree! And always remember that there is hope and redemption for apostates, hypocrites, and whatever other names may appy…otherwise I wouldn’t be here. Praise God!! He is Love and His Mercy endures forever!!

Let’s join in prayer!!

Yes there is a better way, but we also need to be aware of what is going on around us. Not only with in our own countries, but with in our perspective faiths and communities as well as other countries, faiths and communities. We now live an a world were a diversity of forces are working together and against one another to bring about what these forces believe to be the end of turmoil and eventually result in a “utopian society” here on earth. And most wish to do it without God, thus the unGodly world we live in.

That is a very good observation! Utopian societies have failed one after another throughout history. And it is interesting to study the attempts to create and build utopian societies by governments. It is usually done by force, and lots of people end up getting killed (National Socialism and Communism being just two examples, and there are many more).

It is the Kingdom of God in which we live!!!

God bless all!!!

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

Sorry but I got these out of order, my bad…

It takes a lot of practice…hang in there:thumbsup: These quote things drove me nuts when I first came on here:blush:

Be interested in seeing them, God is SOOOOO good.

He is VERY GOOD!!! I will try to post the stats this afternoon, and I think you will be happy…I know I am!!! More than one of my prayers have been answered!!!

“NO DON’T DO THAT.”

“Why, It’s not convenient for me to have this baby.”

“Convenience is NOT a viable reason for aborting a baby. Look what has been created. If you don’t want the baby there are those who do, give it birth and allow others to nurture it.”

That is the proper response. Your scenerio is very simplistic.

I like your scenerio much better than mine!!! Would you be interested in helping MarysRoses and me write our book?

I don’t mean to be judgmental, please do take this as such, this is historical. This has not been, nor does it appear to be the way the RCC handles those who bring to light those doctrines which MAY NOT be in line with what Christ or the Apostles taught.

I believe I know what you are talking about, and I used to agree with you. But you would be surprised at how the RCC responds to those who disagree and bring these things up. I cannot go into all of it here…and really this is something only you and others can look into for yourselves and understand…and you can if you desire to.

The Inquisition is over. If it ever came back as many believe it will, I promise you I will be one of the first million or so who will be there to stand up against it.

But those fears of mine have been put rest after much study. And after much study, I’ve found that the doctrines, dogmas, and moral teachings of the Catholic Church are not out of line with the teachings of Christ and the Apostles…In fact there is no other church more in line with the teachings of Christ and the Apostles…at least in my opinion based on what I’ve studied.

But I would never be able to provide all those studies and conclusions on this forum. That is something a person needs to research, study, and pray and pray and pray about for God’s guidance. And God will answer that person’s prayer and guide them into all Truth!!!

“Knowing to do right and not doing it is sin.” This I agree with.

And I, of course, am still convinced that it still should be. (After over 50 years of not)

I like you SabbathKeeper!!!

God bless all!!!

 

[Sabbath_Keeper]

It takes a lot of practice…hang in there:thumbsup: These quote things drove me nuts when I first came on here:blush:

He is VERY GOOD!!! I will try to post the stats this afternoon, and I think you will be happy…I know I am!!! More than one of my prayers have been answered!!!

I like your scenerio much better than mine!!! Would you be interested in helping MarysRoses and me write our book?

Now there’s a strange mix, a joint venture between Catholics and a devoted SDA, well, actually I prefer to be called a devoted child of God myself, always striving for the truth and obedience. I don’t know what I would be able to contribute to any project of that sort, exept perhaps controversy…

I believe I know what you are talking about, and I used to agree with you. But you would be surprised at how the RCC responds to those who disagree and bring these things up. I cannot go into all of it here…and really this is something only you and others can look into for yourselves and understand…and you can if you desire to.

The Inquisition is over. If it ever came back as many believe it will, I promise you I will be one of the first million or so who will be there to stand up against it.

But those fears of mine have been put rest after much study. And after much study, I’ve found that the doctrines, dogmas, and moral teachings of the Catholic Church are not out of line with the teachings of Christ and the Apostles…In fact there is no other church more in line with the teachings of Christ and the Apostles…at least in my opinion based on what I’ve studied.

But I would never be able to provide all those studies and conclusions on this forum. That is something a person needs to research, study, and pray and pray and pray about for God’s guidance. And God will answer that person’s prayer and guide them into all Truth!!!

Perscution is coming, we can be certain of that. From which quarter? That depends upon propetic intrepretation. And that is the reason I renewed my studies after 10 years of neglect. I wish now that I had kept up with world events better, I am playing catch up and it is an undaunting task. But what I am learning is an eye opener, there is more to this than can be seen on the surface.

I like you SabbathKeeper!!!

God bless all!!!

Hey, I grow on people

It’s a pleasure to discourse with you as well.