Seventh Day Adventist

[Delraek]

Well, Acts 20 does show that the first day of the week was the day the disciples got together to break bread:

7 Now on the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul, ready to depart the next day, spoke to them and continued his message until midnight.

What is your definition of the Lord’s Day?

 

[rstrats]

Delraek ,

re: “Well, Acts 20 does show that the first day of the week was the day the disciples got together to break bread…”

Actually, Acts 2:46 says that the believers broke bread every day.

re: “What is your definition of the Lord’s Day?”

As you know, the term is used only once in the Bible (Revelation 1:10) and I think that it is being used there to refer to the theme of the book - the events of the Day of the Lord, ending in the second coming of the Messiah.

 

[rstrats]

DianJo,

re: “Rev 1:10 - John specifically points out that he witnesses the heavenly Eucharistic liturgy on Sunday, the Lord’s day, the new day of rest in Christ.”

I am not aware of anyplace in the book of Revelation that has anyone receiving Holy Communion. What do you have in mind?

 

[DianJo]

DianJo,

re: “How will these do?”

With all due respect, none of those verses refer to the first day of the week as the “Lord’s Day”.

Well, let’s see:
Matt.28:1 says, “After the sabbath, as the first day of the week was dawning…” The title of this chapter is called “The Ressurection of Jesus.” Thus the first day of the week is being established by the writer as the Lord’s day…

Mark 16:2, 9 and John 20: 1, 19 also are establishing the first day of the week as the day of Jesus’s resurrection.

Acts 20:7 Paul explicitly says that they gathered together on the “first day of the week to break bread.” That’s gathering to celebrate the Eucharist, the usual form of Sunday worship for Christians commemorating the day the Lord rose from the dead.

I’m really not going to repeat everything I posted above - the explanations of the verses are plain and everyone else is corroborating…so, if you can’t see the words that say the Lord’s day is the first day of the week - after the Sabbath, which would be Sunday and that the first day of the week is the day of Jesus’ resurrection and the writers of the NT say they meet together on the first day of the week to breaking bread, Then all I can conclude is that you are choosing to ignore it and you are choosing to stay in your unfortunate ignorance.

So be it.

 

[DianJo]

Delraek ,

re: “Well, Acts 20 does show that the first day of the week was the day the disciples got together to break bread…”

Actually, Acts 2:46 says that the believers broke bread every day.

re: “What is your definition of the Lord’s Day?”

As you know, the term is used only once in the Bible (Revelation 1:10) and I think that it is being used there to refer to the theme of the book - the events of the Day of the Lord, ending in the second coming of the Messiah.

WRONG!
There’s your problem, right there - I bolded and enlarged it so you couldn’t miss it.

It is YOUR interpretation, it’s not the universal interpretation of 2000 years, it’s not what the Apostles passed on and it’s not what those in the first early centuries (ie, Church fathers, bishops…) responsible for teaching the faithful passed on either.

 

[DianJo]

DianJo,

re: “Rev 1:10 - John specifically points out that he witnesses the heavenly Eucharistic liturgy on Sunday, the Lord’s day, the new day of rest in Christ.”

I am not aware of anyplace in the book of Revelation that has anyone receiving Holy Communion. What do you have in mind?

That one verse does not specifically refer to Holy Communion. What the explanation of the verse in my initital post is that the Mass is a reflection of the book of Revelation - the wedding feast, the heavenly feast. The Mass is celebrated on Sunday, which John mentions that he has his vision on the Lord’s day - Sunday.

You are not “aware of anyplace in the book of Revelation that has anyone receiving Holy Communion” because you refuse to actually see the words of scripture and their meaning as taught by the one commissioned to protect and profess it. You prefer to hold to YOUR interpretation.

If you can ever let go of that arrogance - yes, arrogance because that’s what it is when WE think we know more than God, let yourself be lead and taught by the Church then maybe you will one day see the blatant meaning that’s been staring you in the face for all these years. I hope so.

Good luck to you and Godspeed.

 

[Lysimachus]

Dear DianJo,

How are you this fine evening? I pray well. I’ll be upfront and say that I read some of your posts and I based on my duty toward God, I have made some thorough responses based on the light of scripture and what the spirit has told me to tell you.

Please bear in mind that none of the following is “copy/paste” material. It is all my own personal writing which has taken me several hours today. Since each post allows no more than 5000 characters and I have much to say, I am forced to chop up my response into 7 posts.

Part 1

Isaiah 1:13 - God begins to reveal His displeasure with the Sabbath.

The actual text quotes thus from the KJV: “Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and Sabbaths,[notice plural] the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting.”

The true understanding of the definition of “Sabbaths” here are those “shadow Sabbaths” of Colossians. This is not the 7th Day Weekly Sabbath of the 4th commandment. The “sabbath days” referred to here are the feast days given to ancient Israel, such as, unleavened bread, feast of weeks, feast of tabernacles, etc. This has nothing to do with God’s Seventh-Day weekly Sabbath–the day that God sanctified and hallowed, and of which he later said: “Remember the Sabbath Day to keep it Holy” (see Genesis 2: 2,3, Exodus 20: 8-11). The Shadow sabbaths are more clearly defined in an article by Michael Schiefler entitled “The Shadow Sabbaths of Colossians 2:17.” (You can read it here: biblelight.net/shadow.htm)

If you do not come to accept that there is a VAST difference between these two Sabbath types, then I’m afraid it is impossible for us to find any common ground. The Word of God is sure, yet if you intend to interpret it with your preconceived ideas and notions, it will lead you toward nothing but folly and utter ruin, for I cannot in good conscience keep from warning you that you are on the wrong side.

Matt. 28:1; Mark 16:2,9; John 20:1,19- the Gospel writers purposely reveal Jesus’ resurrection and appearances were on Sunday. This is because Sunday had now become the most important day in the life of the Church.

Just because Jesus rose on Sunday bears no specific command to honor it in any special way. Back in creation, Day 1 was when God began his work of creation, and on the Seventh Day he rested. Likewise, Day 1 is when Christ awoke from rest and went STRAIGHT to work to make intercession with His father in heaven on our behalf. The Sabbath represents “rest from sin”. Jesus told us that the son of man was the Lord of the Sabbath: “For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.” Matthew 12:8. Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath. He never changed the Sabbath, but showed us how to keep it “Then said Jesus unto them, I will ask you one thing; Is it lawful on the sabbath days to do good, or to do evil? to save life, or to destroy it”? ~ Luke 6:9

The Sabbath not only involves physical rest from labor, but it is a symbol of the rest that Christ gives us from sin (see Hebrews 4:2-11). The majority of the Jews did not enter into that rest from sin because of unbelief. We are admonished by the author of Hebrews to enter by faith into that rest (Sabbath–a symbol of our rest from sin).

“For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works. And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest. Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts. For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God [did] from his. Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.” Hebrews 4:2-11

(Continued…)

 

[Lysimachus]

Part 2

Acts 20:7 - this text shows the apostolic tradition of gathering together to celebrate the Eucharist on Sunday, the “first day of the week.” Luke documents the principle worship was on Sunday because this was one of the departures from the Jewish form of worship.

Simply because the apostles “gathered together” still does not hold a shred of evidence that Sunday is to be held as any “special” day. Instead, every day of the week is made by God, and we should worship God every day. Sunday was a convenient time on weekends for the apostles to come together, yet regardless of what day they met during the week, they ALWAYS came together and worshipped God on the Seventh-Day Sabbath.

“And he reasoned in the synagogue every Sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks.” ~ Acts 18:4

“And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath.” ~ Acts 13:42

Your interpretation that the Apostles came together to celebrate the “Eucharist” on Sunday in Acts 20:7 is only a figment of your wild imagination. You are improperly using the definition “break bread” to carelessly represent the celebration of communion (Lord’s Supper). But “break bread” in this proper understanding simply means “to eat”. That’s it! The disciples broke bread EVERY day.

The definition of “break bread” in Acts 20:7 is absolutely no different than Acts 20:11 where it says: “ When he therefore was come up again, and had broken bread, and eaten, and talked a long while, even till break of day, so he departed.”.

“Wherefore I pray you to take some meat: for this is for your health: for there shall not an hair fall from the head of any of you. And when he had thus spoken, he took bread, and gave thanks to God in presence of them all: and when he had broken it, he began to eat.” ~ Acts 27:34,35

Please tell me, does this instance of breaking bread sound like the “Eucharist”? If not, then how can you interpret the breaking of bread in Acts 20:7 as that of the “Eucharist”? Sounds like you just went off a wild shoot.

Notice that as Paul continued to preach long after the death of Christ, they continued to worship on the Sabbath day: "And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God."~ Acts 13:44.

It is important to note that modern research has established that the early Christians continued to worship on the Sabbath day according to the commandment 300 years after the death of Christ. Then gradually, Christians began to keep the seventh-day sabbath and the pagan “day of the Sun”. As Christianity became paganized through the influence the early Catholic fathers who developed a church, half pagan and half christian, with the help of Emperor Constantine, who brought in the first Sunday law. But even through the Dark Ages the true persecuted Christians continued to keep the Sabbath holy in the mountains and caves running from the great persecution, first from pagan Rome, and then from Papal Rome. These Christians were, the Waldenses, the Huguenots, the Vaudois, Moravians, Albagensians, Bohemians, etc. Though severely persecuted and slaughtered by the fierce Catholic Church through the inquisition, they continued to faithfully keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

You see DianJo, it is you who is twisting scripture. Not the people you are accusing. I can only pray you will take what I am writing seriously because it was after great contemplation that I felt the impression from God to bear this message to you.

1 Cor. 16:2 - Paul instructs the Corinthians to make contributions to the churches “on the first day of the week,” which is Sunday. This is because the primary day of Christian worship is Sunday.

Once again, there is no reference to Sunday being a “holy day”, or a day of “worship”.

“Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as [God] hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.” – 1 Cor. 16:2

Hmm…does anyone here gather what DianJo is gathering? It is quite evident that Paul is ordering the churches of Galatia that the FIRST day of the week is a day of “work”—to gather that up their contributions rather than gathering them up when Paul comes to visit them. Sunday is the beginning of the week—a great time to start getting your things together than to start doing it when Paul gets there to preach to them on SABBATH.

(Continued…)

 

[Lysimachus]

Part 3

Col. 2:16-17 - Paul teaches that the Sabbath was only a shadow of what was fulfilled in Christ, and says “let no one pass judgment any more over a Sabbath.”

Once again, refer to my initial response and to the article entitled “The Shadow Sabbaths of Colossians”: biblelight.net/shadow.htm

There is a VAST difference between the shadow Sabbaths and the 7th Day Sabbath as established in the Moral Decalogue and written by the “finger of God” (not the Mosaic Laws of rights and ceremonies). Also, please refrain from making any responses until you have read all that I have said, and the articles I have provided thoroughly.

2 Thess. 2:15 - we are to hold fast to apostolic tradition, whether it is oral or written. The 2,000 year-old tradition of the Church is that the apostles changed the Sabbath day of worship from Saturday to Sunday.

But are we talking about the traditions of God? Or the traditions of men? There is no scriptural text ANYWHERE that provides any reason to suggest the Apostles changed the day from Saturday to Sunday. Notice that after the cross the faithful Jews who had become faithful Christians (that is, followers of Christ) continued to keep the Sabbath holy according to the commandment: “And that day was the preparation, and the sabbath drew on. And the women also, which came with him from Galilee, followed after, and beheld the sepulcher, and how his body was laid. And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment.” Luke 23:54-56

Notice “according to the commandment”.

Heb. 4:8-9 - regarding the day of rest, if Joshua had given rest, God would not later speak of “another day,” which is Sunday, the new Sabbath. Sunday is the first day of the week and the first day of the new creation brought about by our Lord’s resurrection, which was on Sunday.

“Another Day” is “Sunday”? Talk about interpreting scripture their own way, if there ever was such a thing, you by far have exceeded my expectations by crowning yourself as “king of personal interpretation” ^.^.

Can God speak of another day if he has already given them the Seventh-Day Sabbath as their day of rest? Of course not! This is exactly why God would not and WILL NOT speak of another day! Ch 4:8 is an example of how when God sets out to accomplish something, He completes it - He does it beginning with the foundation of the earth. God set out to create this world. When He had finished, accomplished what He had set out to do, He rested on the 7th day as a testimony that God does what He says. If God hadn’t completed creation and stopped to do something else, there wouldn’t be a literal 7th day Sabbath and the weekly cycle would not exist as we know it. There would have been another day appointed.

It is absolutely impossible for Hebrews 4:8 to be speaking of Sunday when verse 10 clarifies verse 4:

“For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works. ~ Hebrews: 4:4

Here we clearly see that Christ (our example) rested on the Seventh-Day Sabbath from all His works. Now let’s go further to verse 10:

“For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. ~ Hebrews 4:10

Verse 4 clearly identifies this “rest” as the Seventh-Day. Then verse 10 (which is AFTER verse 8) clearly describes what a Christian will do if they enter into that same rest that God entered—we ALSOwill cease from doing our own works on the SAME day God rested—the Seventh-Day Sabbath—Saturday!

(Continued…)

 

[Lysimachus]

Part 4

Heb. 7:12 - when there is a change in the priesthood, there is a change in the law as well. Because we have a new Priest and a new sacrifice, we also have a new day of worship, which is Sunday.

How about we read and understand Hebrews 7 in its fullest context:

Ch. 7:9-17 “And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham. For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him. If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need [was there] that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron? For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law. For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar. For [it is] evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood. And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest, Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life. For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.”

When there is a change in the law, the question that remaineth is “which law?”. Obviously, this law which Paul wrote of is not speaking of the 10 Commandment Moral Decalogue which was written by the finger of God at Sinai, and even KEPT by Abraham, long before the Jews came into existence (Genesis 26:5).

“For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.” James 2: 10, 11. Unquestionably, James is quoting from those commandments of which Jesus said, “If ye love me, keep my commandments.” John 14:15.

Just think DianJo, when you keep Sunday instead of Saturday, you become guilty of all. I sure wouldn’t want to be in your shoes.

Does God change his moral law?

The eternal law–the 10 commandment decalogue written with the finger of God and given to Moses to ancient Israel was never nailed to the cross, for Jesus himself said "For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." Matthew 5:18

Tell me DianJo, when you look outside your window, do you see the earth? I don’t know about you, but when I look outside my window, I still see a spinning earth. The Bible clearly teaches that not ONE jot or tittle shall pass from the law.

Malachi 3:6 “For I am the LORD, I change not

So just what laws were changed?

While the Old Testament has many lessons for us and lays the foundation of the Gospel, there are some passages that no longer have a literal application, only a spiritual application. For instance, the rights and ceremonies of the Jews are no longer applied literally, so we no longer have to slay animals for Christ our Passover is sacrificed for us (1 Cor. 5:7). So this law of rights and ceremonies was no longer to be observed as was settled in the council of Jerusalem in Acts 15. “Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;” ~ Col 2:14. The “handwriting of ordinances” were handwritten by Moses, and known as the “Mosaic laws” and were given to the Children of Israel—which were “types” and “shadows” pointing to Christ’s life and death. The 10 Commandments were not a “type” or a “shadow”, rather a moral Decalogue written for “all men” and written by the finger of God: “And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God.” ~ Exodus 31:18

The laws of rights, ceremonies, feast keeping, etc. – these were the laws that were changed, NOT the 10 Commandments which were written by the finger of God for ALL MEN.

Rev 1:10 - John specifically points out that he witnesses the heavenly Eucharistic liturgy on Sunday, the Lord’s day, the new day of rest in Christ.

The Lord’s Day is the Seventh-Day Sabbath. Not Sunday. You may attempt to argue all you want, but in vain. This I promise you. You will never prove that the Lord’s Day is Sunday, no matter how hard you try. It will not be found in scripture, anywhere.

(Continued…)

 

[Lysimachus]

Part 5

Matt. 16:19; 18:18 - whatever the Church binds on earth is bound in heaven. Since the resurrection, Mass has been principally celebrated on Sunday

Exactly. And guess what? We’ll be keeping the Sabbath (Seventh-Day, not Sunday) in heaven.

Isaiah also reminds us that the Sabbath will be kept forever in the new earth: “For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain. And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.” Isaiah 66:22,23.

All flesh in heaven will come to worship before God EACH Sabbath Day!

If it were true that the Sabbath was no longer binding upon man after the crucifixion, then why are we told in scripture that we (all flesh) will keep the Sabbath in heaven? If it is no longer binding on earth, why will it be binding in heaven? If it was not obligatory for gentiles to keep the Sabbath on earth, then why will it finally be kept by gentiles in heaven? “All flesh” incorporates Jews and Gentiles alike. This is the “grafting” which Romans 11:13-26 is referring to, where Jews and Gentiles alike are grafted in as one nation making modern Israel after the spirit. Not after a bloodline.

Please remember that when Isaiah spoke of the Sabbath, the so called “Sunday Sabbath” did not exist. Only the Seventh-Day Sabbath. So when we quote Isaiah 66:22 and 23, the Seventh-Day Sabbath is the ONLY Sabbath which he can be referring to.

If, therefore, those who were brought up in the ancient order of things have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord’s Day, on which also our life has sprung up again by Him and by His death–whom some deny, by which mystery we have obtained faith, and therefore endure, that we may be found the disciples of Jesus Christ, our only Master." Ignatius, To the Magnesians, 9:1 (A.D. 110).

“And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time”. ~ Daniel 7:25

The Catholic Church for centuries has attempted to change God’s times and laws, but in vain. The Seventh-Day Sabbath is God’s final test for mankind as the leading powers slowly bring about a National Sunday Law which will force all men to worship on that Day. We know this to be true, for history will repeat itself of what the Catholics did for 1260 years from 538 AD to 1798 AD, as the “wore out the saints of the most high”.

There were LARGE numbers of European churches spread about Europe in France, Germany, Spain, Switzerland, England…such as the Albagensians, Paulicians, Petrobusians, Passaginians, Waldenses, Insabbatati, Beohemians, Huguenots…all God-fearing people that consisted of families with children that loved God, served Him, and kept His commandments. All during the dark ages (the 1260 years from 538-1798) these people were hunted down like wild animals, were brutally tortured, were burned to death at the stake for upholding their beliefs in the 10 Commandments and the Sabbath Day and not accepting that “God Gave the Church the Authority to Change the Laws”.

The question that must be asked now is….were the martyrdoms and sacrifices of these Sabbath-keeping Christians all in vain? Or would have they been better off in God’s eyes had they just succumbed to the Catholic traditions and honored Sunday? Or do we even comprehend just how much they died for an honorable cause…for His names sake?!

“Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.” ~ Matthew 7:14

Tell me, does the Catholic Church appear to be “few” to you? God’s true church will comprise of all denominations, peoples, and tongues. The Catholic Church is by far the largest Christian organization on this planet. America alone comprises of 60 million Catholics. Does that seem “few” to you?

What is God’s true church?

”Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.” ~ Revelation 14:12

We are plainly told that the patience of the saints are those who KEEP the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

(Continued…)

 

[Lysimachus]

Part 6

The seventh day, therefore, is proclaimed a rest–abstraction from ills–preparing for the Primal Day,[The Lord’s Day] our true rest; which, in truth, is the first creation of light, in which all things are viewed and possessed. From this day the first wisdom and knowledge illuminate us. For the light of truth–a light true, casting no shadow, is the Spirit of God indivisibly divided to all, who are sanctified by faith, holding the place of a luminary, in order to the knowledge of real existences. By following Him, therefore, through our whole life, we become impossible; and this is to rest." Clement of Alexandria, Stromata, 6:16 (A.D. 202).

Once again, this is the Catholic Church’s (man’s) interpretation, not God’s. Christ is our “rest”, and when did He rest? He rested on the Seventh-Day. Christ is our example. He fulfilled the law perfectly, and we are to pattern ourselves after his character.

Jesus even warned in Matthew 5:19: “Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.”

This is a very serious matter. The law cannot be kept without the love of Christ in the heart, that is why we are told that love is the fulfilling of the law: “Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.” Romans 13:10. Notice that here Paul has just listed just four of the ten commandments of the decalogue that we are to keep through love. “For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.” Romans 13:9. I trust you can realize that the fourth commandment is a part of this Decalogue.

Note that Paul is clearly telling us to fulfil the law of Christ: "Bear ye one another’s burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ." Galatians 6:2

Well, let’s see:
Matt.28:1 says, “After the sabbath, as the first day of the week was dawning…” The title of this chapter is called “The Ressurection of Jesus.” Thus the first day of the week is being established by the writer as the Lord’s day…

“If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thypleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words: Then shalt thou delight thyself in the LORD; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.” Isaiah 58:13,14.

Isaiah 58 CLEARLY tells you that the Sabbath Day is the “Lord’s Holy Day”….this is the “Lord’s Day”, NOT Sunday.

Did God later change his mind after the cross?

Once again, refer to Malachi 3:6 “For I am the LORD, I change not

"For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." Matthew 5:18

(Continued…)

 

[Lysimachus]

Part 7

I’m really not going to repeat everything I posted above - the explanations of the verses are plain and everyone else is corroborating…so, if you can’t see the words that say the Lord’s day is the first day of the week - after the Sabbath, which would be Sunday and that the first day of the week is the day of Jesus’ resurrection and the writers of the NT say they meet together on the first day of the week to breaking bread, Then all I can conclude is that you are choosing to ignore it and you are choosing to stay in your unfortunate ignorance.

So be it.

Just remember, when you point a finger at someone, there are 3 of your own fingers pointing back at yourself. You need to take your statement as some of your own medicine, otherwise, it is you who is choosing to stay in unfortunate ignorance.

If you can ever let go of that arrogance - yes, arrogance because that’s what it is when WE think we know more than God, let yourself be lead and taught by the Church then maybe you will one day see the blatant meaning that’s been staring you in the face for all these years. I hope so.

So far, from my readings, I have not found one person in this entire thread more arrogant than yourself. But only God can help you see this if you are willing. I can only do my part and warn you of your current deplorable state.

I shall conclude by stating that the Sabbath vs. Sunday controversy will soon come to a head worldwide. The battle will be between those who keep the Seventh-day Sabbath holy, which is the seal of the living God described in Revelation 7 and 14, and those who receive Sunday sacredness as the false day of rest (the Mark of the Beast). The Beast is the papacy of Revelation 13 (1st part). The second beast of Revelation 13, which represents the United States that started out as a Protestant power and will make an image to the first Beast (Rome), will try to cause all through Sunday legislation to have to worship the day of Rome’s authority. The true people of God will keep His commandments, including the true Sabbath, and they will receive the seal of God in their foreheads.

I would be happy to share the meaning of these prophecies in much greater detail and depth, providing you are open to look at it. Feel free to print out and share this study with anyone you see is willing to come together and search the scriptures.

May the love of Christ be with you all!

Your friend,

Marcos

"Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city." Revelation 22:14.

“Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man” ~ Ecclesiastes 12:13

The END

 

[Delraek]

Part 2
It is important to note that modern research has established that the early Christians continued to worship on the Sabbath day according to the commandment 300 years after the death of Christ. Then gradually, Christians began to keep the seventh-day sabbath and the pagan “day of the Sun”. As Christianity became paganized through the influence the early Catholic fathers who developed a church, half pagan and half christian, with the help of Emperor Constantine, who brought in the first Sunday law. But even through the Dark Ages the true persecuted Christians continued to keep the Sabbath holy in the mountains and caves running from the great persecution, first from pagan Rome, and then from Papal Rome. These Christians were, the Waldenses, the Huguenots, the Vaudois, Moravians, Albagensians, Bohemians, etc. Though severely persecuted and slaughtered by the fierce Catholic Church through the inquisition, they continued to faithfully keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

You see DianJo, it is you who is twisting scripture. Not the people you are accusing. I can only pray you will take what I am writing seriously because it was after great contemplation that I felt the impression from God to bear this message to you.

Your history is far from accurate. The following quotes are prior to 300 a.d.:

The Didache

“But every Lord’s day . . . gather yourselves together and break bread, and give thanksgiving after having confessed your transgressions, that your sacrifice may be pure. But let no one that is at variance with his fellow come together with you, until they be reconciled, that your sacrifice may not be profaned” (Didache 14 [A.D. 70]).

The Letter of Barnabas

“We keep the eighth day [Sunday] with joyfulness, the day also on which Jesus rose again from the dead” (Letter of Barnabas 15:6–8 [A.D. 74]).

Ignatius of Antioch

“[T]hose who were brought up in the ancient order of things * have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord’s day, on which also our life has sprung up again by him and by his death” (Letter to the Magnesians 8 [A.D. 110]).

Justin Martyr

“[W]e too would observe the fleshly circumcision, and the Sabbaths, and in short all the feasts, if we did not know for what reason they were enjoined [on] you—namely, on account of your transgressions and the hardness of your heart. . . . [H]ow is it, Trypho, that we would not observe those rites which do not harm us—I speak of fleshly circumcision and Sabbaths and feasts? . . . God enjoined you to keep the Sabbath, and imposed on you other precepts for a sign, as I have already said, on account of your unrighteousness and that of your fathers . . .” (Dialogue with Trypho the Jew 18, 21 [A.D. 155]).

“But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Savior on the same day rose from the dead” (First Apology 67 [A.D. 155]).

For the record, Constantine only legalized Christianity. He didn’t even become a Christian until right before his death.*

 

[Delraek]

It is important to note that modern research has established that the early Christians continued to worship on the Sabbath day according to the commandment 300 years after the death of Christ. Then gradually, Christians began to keep the seventh-day sabbath and the pagan “day of the Sun”. As Christianity became paganized through the influence the early Catholic fathers who developed a church, half pagan and half christian, with the help of Emperor Constantine, who brought in the first Sunday law. But even through the Dark Ages the true persecuted Christians continued to keep the Sabbath holy in the mountains and caves running from the great persecution, first from pagan Rome, and then from Papal Rome. These Christians were, the Waldenses, the Huguenots, the Vaudois, Moravians, Albagensians, Bohemians, etc. Though severely persecuted and slaughtered by the fierce Catholic Church through the inquisition, they continued to faithfully keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

Ok, I just googled the Waldenses and found nothing about Sabbath(Sat) worship vs Sunday worship - this is from encyclopedia.com:
The Waldenses proclaimed the Bible as the sole rule of life and faith. They rejected the papacy, purgatory, indulgences, and the mass, and laid great stress on gospel simplicity. Worship services consisted of readings from the Bible, the Lord’s Prayer, and sermons, which they believed could be preached by all Christians as depositaries of the Holy Spirit. Their distinctive pre-Reformation doctrines are set forth in the Waldensian Catechism (c.1489).

I also looked up the other groups you listed and nothing there either - just heretical groups during the time of the reformation! And not ONE listing Sunday worship as a problem! Where do you get this stuff??

 

[Delraek]

Part 7

I shall conclude by stating that the Sabbath vs. Sunday controversy will soon come to a head worldwide. The battle will be between those who keep the Seventh-day Sabbath holy, which is the seal of the living God described in Revelation 7 and 14, and those who receive Sunday sacredness as the false day of rest (the Mark of the Beast). The Beast is the papacy of Revelation 13 (1st part). The second beast of Revelation 13, which represents the United States that started out as a Protestant power and will make an image to the first Beast (Rome), will try to cause all through Sunday legislation to have to worship the day of Rome’s authority. The true people of God will keep His commandments, including the true Sabbath, and they will receive the seal of God in their foreheads.

I would be happy to share the meaning of these prophecies in much greater detail and depth, providing you are open to look at it. Feel free to print out and share this study with anyone you see is willing to come together and search the scriptures.

May the love of Christ be with you all!

Your friend,

Marcos

Your so-called “prophecy” is already going downhill considering the fact that Sunday in the U.S. isn’t even considered “special” anymore. It seems most people consider it a good shopping day or just another work day!

Since you’re obviously SDA, could you respond to my questions on this thread?: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=198998

Thanks!

 

[Lysimachus]

Hhi there Delraek, hope all is well with you!

By the way, before I continue, I just wanted to commend you on your response. I was expecting to be flamed for my beliefs, but your response surprised me. Your Christian deportment is highly attractive.

I’ll have to answer your other questions sometime later this week, but I’ll answer you now about the Waldenses.

Ok, I just googled the Waldenses and found nothing about Sabbath(Sat) worship vs Sunday worship - this is from encyclopedia.com:

The Waldenses proclaimed the Bible as the sole rule of life and faith. They rejected the papacy, purgatory, indulgences, and the mass, and laid great stress on gospel simplicity. Worship services consisted of readings from the Bible, the Lord’s Prayer, and sermons, which they believed could be preached by all Christians as depositaries of the Holy Spirit. Their distinctive pre-Reformation doctrines are set forth in the Waldensian Catechism (c.1489).

I also looked up the other groups you listed and nothing there either - just heretical groups during the time of the reformation! And not ONE listing Sunday worship as a problem! Where do you get this stuff??

There are writers who have maintained that the Waldenses made a general practice of observing the Seventh-Day Sabbath. This concept arose from sources which in the original latin describe the Waldenses as keeping the Dies Dominicalis, or Lord’s Day (Sunday), but in which through a practice which dates from the reformation, the word for “Sunday” has been translated “Sabbath”. But there is historical evidence of some observance of the Seventh-Day Sabbath among the Waldenses. A report of an inquisition before whom were brought some Waldenses of Moravia in the middle of the 15th century declares that among the waldenses “Not a few indeed celebrate the Sabbath with the Jews”:.-- Johann Joseph Ignaz Von Dollinger, Beitrage Zur Sektengeschichte Des Mittelalters (Reports On The History Of The Sects Of The Middle Ages, Munich, 1890, 2D PT., P. 661. There can be no question that this source indicates the observance of the Seventh-Day Sabbath.

Since I do not have much time left tonight, I just want to say that there are many, many, and I mean MANY old dusty ancient documents and books that you will never find on google or the internet. I’ve read extensive accounts of how the Catholic Church has desparately tried to cover up these historical documents, including the burning of books. Though the Catholic church has burned many books, God still has preserved several sources.

On more recent discoveries of Waldensian manuscrips, see M. Esposito, “Sur Quelques Manuscrits De L’Ancienne Litterature Des Vaudois Du Piemont,” In Revue D’ Historque Ecclesiastique (Louvain, 1951), P. 13 FF.;F. Jostes, “Die Waldenserbibeln,” In Historisches Jahrbuch, 1894; D. Lortsch, Histoire De La Bible En France (Paris, 1910), Ch. 10.

A classic written by one of the Waldensians “Barbs” Is Jean Leger, Historie Generale Des Eglises Ev Angeliques Des Vallees De Piemont (Leyden, 1669), which was written at the time of the great persectutions and contains firsthand information with drawings.

For the literature of Waldensian texts see A. Destafano, Civilita Medioevale (1944); And Riformatori Ed Eretici Nel Medioeve (Palermo, 1938); J.D. Bounous, The Waldensian Patois Of Pramol (Nashville, 1936); And A.Dondaine, Archivum Fratrum Praedicatorum (1946).

For the history of the Waldenses some of the more recent, reliable works are: E. Comba, History of the Waldenses in Italy (See later Italian edition published in Torre Pellice, 1934); E. Gebhart, Mystics And Heretics (Boston, 1927); G. Gonnet, IL Vallismo Medioevale, Prolegomeni (Torre Pellice, 1935); and Jalla, Histoire Des Vaudois Et Leurs Coloonies (Torre Pellice, 1935).

As for the edict against the Waldenses–a considerable portion of the text of the papal bull issued by Innocent VIII in 1487 against the Waldenses (the original of which is in the library of the university of Cambridge) is given, in an english translation, in John Dowling’s History Of Romanism (1871 ED.), B. 6, Ch. 5, SEC. 62.

As for the rest of the churches, there are volumes of old dusty literature that discuss their beliefs in the mountains in greater debts. I’ll return at a future date to continue our discussions.

Blessings to you!

 

[Delraek]

Hhi there Delraek, hope all is well with you!

By the way, before I continue, I just wanted to commend you on your response. I was expecting to be flamed for my beliefs, but your response surprised me. Your Christian deportment is highly attractive.

I’ll have to answer your other questions sometime later this week, but I’ll answer you now about the Waldenses.

There are writers who have maintained that the Waldenses made a general practice of observing the Seventh-Day Sabbath. This concept arose from sources which in the original latin describe the Waldenses as keeping the Dies Dominicalis, or Lord’s Day (Sunday), but in which through a practice which dates from the reformation, the word for “Sunday” has been translated “Sabbath”. But there is historical evidence of some observance of the Seventh-Day Sabbath among the Waldenses. A report of an inquisition before whom were brought some Waldenses of Moravia in the middle of the 15th century declares that among the waldenses “Not a few indeed celebrate the Sabbath with the Jews”:.-- Johann Joseph Ignaz Von Dollinger, Beitrage Zur Sektengeschichte Des Mittelalters (Reports On The History Of The Sects Of The Middle Ages, Munich, 1890, 2D PT., P. 661. There can be no question that this source indicates the observance of the Seventh-Day Sabbath.

Since I do not have much time left tonight, I just want to say that there are many, many, and I mean MANY old dusty ancient documents and books that you will never find on google or the internet. I’ve read extensive accounts of how the Catholic Church has desparately tried to cover up these historical documents, including the burning of books. Though the Catholic church has burned many books, God still has preserved several sources.

On more recent discoveries of Waldensian manuscrips, see M. Esposito, “Sur Quelques Manuscrits De L’Ancienne Litterature Des Vaudois Du Piemont,” In Revue D’ Historque Ecclesiastique (Louvain, 1951), P. 13 FF.;F. Jostes, “Die Waldenserbibeln,” In Historisches Jahrbuch, 1894; D. Lortsch, Histoire De La Bible En France (Paris, 1910), Ch. 10.

A classic written by one of the Waldensians “Barbs” Is Jean Leger, Historie Generale Des Eglises Ev Angeliques Des Vallees De Piemont (Leyden, 1669), which was written at the time of the great persectutions and contains firsthand information with drawings.

For the literature of Waldensian texts see A. Destafano, Civilita Medioevale (1944); And Riformatori Ed Eretici Nel Medioeve (Palermo, 1938); J.D. Bounous, The Waldensian Patois Of Pramol (Nashville, 1936); And A.Dondaine, Archivum Fratrum Praedicatorum (1946).

For the history of the Waldenses some of the more recent, reliable works are: E. Comba, History of the Waldenses in Italy (See later Italian edition published in Torre Pellice, 1934); E. Gebhart, Mystics And Heretics (Boston, 1927); G. Gonnet, IL Vallismo Medioevale, Prolegomeni (Torre Pellice, 1935); and Jalla, Histoire Des Vaudois Et Leurs Coloonies (Torre Pellice, 1935).

As for the edict against the Waldenses–a considerable portion of the text of the papal bull issued by Innocent VIII in 1487 against the Waldenses (the original of which is in the library of the university of Cambridge) is given, in an english translation, in John Dowling’s History Of Romanism (1871 ED.), B. 6, Ch. 5, SEC. 62.
Blessings to you!

Quote by Dr. Sam Bacchiocchi:

Did the Waldenses Observe the Sabbath?

A second example of existing inaccuracies in the Great Controversy, is the reference to the observance of the Sabbath by the Waldenses. Ellen White wrote: “Through ages of darkness and apostasy there were Waldenses who denied the supremacy of Rome, who rejected image worship as idolatry, and who kept the true Sabbath. Under the fiercest tempests of oppositions they maintained their faith.” 32

This statement suggests that Sabbathkeeping was common among the Waldenses. Most likely Ellen White believed that only some of the Waldenses kept the Sabbath, because later she writes about them saying: "Some of whom [Waldenses] were observers of the Sabbath."33

Did some of the Waldenses observe the Sabbath? I spent several hours searching for an answer in the two scholarly volumes Storia dei Valdesi - (History of the Waldenses), authored by Amedeo Molnar and Augusto Hugon. These two books were published in 1974 by the Claudiana, which is the official Italian Waldensian publishing house. They are regarded as the most comprehensive history of the Waldenses. To my regret I found no allusion whatsoever to Sabbathkeeping among the Waldenses.

continued…

 

[Delraek]

continued…

Sabbathkeepers or Sandal-Wearers?

The same search for historical evidences of Sabbathkeeping among the Waldenses has been conducted by other Adventist scholars. What they have found in some documents are references to the insabbati, a common nickname for the Waldenses. In the past some uninformed readers have taken this term to mean that the Waldenses were Sabbathkeepers. It is possible that Ellen White was influenced by this old interpretation.

Unfortunately the term insabbati has no connection to Sabbathkeeping. As Adventist Church Historian, Daniel Augsburger explains in the symposium The Sabbath in Scripture and History, the Waldenses were often called insabbati, not because they kept the Sabbath, but because the wore sandals. “The Latin word for sandals is sabbatum, the root of the Spanish zapato and the French sabot. The sandals were an outward sign of their being imitators of the apostles in living the vita apostolica and the justification of their preaching the gospel.” 34 In other words, the Waldenses were often called insabbati - (sandal-wearers), because many of them wore sandals cut away at the top in their itinerant ministry of preaching the Gospel.

biblicalperspectives.com/endtimeissues/eti_87.html

God bless!

 

[cascherman]

With the coming of Christ came many new CHANGES to the covenant between God and man.

-Baptism replaces Circumcision (The Perfected induction into the family of God)
-One Sacrifice replaces many never fulfilling sacrifices (The Perfect Sacrifice)
-2 great commandments replacing and encompassing the 10 commandments (The Perfected Commandments)
-Sabbath being perfected by the Lord’s Day, the Eighth Day, as the early writings explain, and the Lord’s sabbath still being celebrated (Epistle of Barnabas Ch. 15). (The Perfected Sabbath, rest day, not dismissed.)

Afterall, Paul says, “Let no one, then, pass judgement on you in matters of food and drink or with regard to festival or new moon or sabbath. THESE ARE SHADOWS OF THINGS TO COME; THE REALITY BELONGS TO CHRIST.” Colossians 2:16-17

There is NO indication from that verse that Paul is speaking of any one Sabbath or the other, so one CANNOT deduce from it that he is excluding the tradition Jewish sabbath.

It is an exciting realization to find that the early Christians more than less believed what modern day Catholics believe today, with merely a few more definitions than were thought of then.

God Bless.