Seventh Day Adventist

[SDA2RC]

For those of you who rely on Dr. Samuel Bacchiocchi for “evidence” against the Sabbath keeping of the churches in the Dark Ages, here is a refutation against Dr. Samuel Bacchiocchi by Pastor J. Voerman:

ktfministry.org/resources/articles/VJ_En_TheWaldenses.pdf

I will still continue with my full response though. Like I said, give me over the weekend.

Lysimachus,
If if were just Dr. Bacchiocci, then I would understand your protest… however, it is the Waldensian Church it’s self that says that they had no interest in the Sabbath, but instead focused on the Day of the Resurrection. I read the aritcle you posted,and appreciate it… however, again, it ignores the statements of the very people at question, and provides absolutely no primary sources from the Waldenses showing Sabbath observance. It seems to me that until you can get the Waldenses to say that they kept the Sabbath, your fighting an up hill battle. Few are going to agree with you when your history of their movement, conflicts with their own words.

 

[Lysimachus]

You act like the Waldensian church is our “core” argument to proving the Sabbath or something. That’s just one little “smidgen” we threw in. If the Waldensies didn’t keep the Sabbath, that’s hardly an argument for keeping Sunday.

Their were a lot of other churches besides the Waldensies, some whom we know kept the Sabbath. That article makes this very plain.

 

[Lysimachus]

Well, Lysimachus (can I call you ‘Ly’ for short?),

You suffer from a fundamental perceptual handicap, and I mean this in all Christian charity, but you accuse us Catholics of the same reasoning you use to justify your wild hair beliefs.

EXAMPLE: Who told you that what Isaiah means by “law” and “testimony” is the Bible? (OT and NT)
NOT THE BIBLE.

Can you give a better explanation? This is clearly the only interpretation. Virtually every Christian will recognize that the Old Testament was a book of “laws”—both moral and ceremonial, which included the 10 Commandments and the Mosaic Laws. A famous question that arises toward many Sabbath keepers is: Do you keep the Old Testament, or New Testament, and most individuals from Protestant Denominations are always sure to point out to you that if we are keeping the Old Testament, we’re still “bound by laws that were nailed to the cross”.

The prophet Isaiah prophecied of the coming of the Messiah, and spoke of many great things that were to come in the last days. Any Bible student that thoroughly studies will recognize this.

But assuming we arn’t allowed to bank on Isaiah 8:20, let’s continue further…

EXAMPLE: Where does it say in the Bible that God gives it as a tool for every individual? Heck, where in the Bible does it say the Bible is the ‘How to be a Christian Book’???
IT DOESN"T.

2 Tim. 3:16, 17 — *"**All scripture **[is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works." *

These 2 verses are so plain, it is impossible for anyone to get around it. And I know Rbt that you are mature enough to not quible over my use of the word “tool”. You know very well what I mean.

EXAMPLE: If the Bible is your “measuring rod,” then why do you and all the other ‘bible thumpers’ disagree on what specific passages mean? Who is the infallible speaker on Scripture here, Ly?

If we had no scripture, where would we be at as far as Christianity is concerned? The answer is very simple. NO WHERE! There would be no Christian world period. All Christian belief is based off of the inspired writ of the testimonies. This is how we use it as our “measuring rod”—we use it to define and point out sin (Romans 3:20). Without it, we would have not known of Christ, God, creation, His miracles, or any commandments!

John 3:39 --"Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify (the testimonies–both Old AND New) of me."

Without the scriptures, knowledge of eternal life would be found no where. Without them, we would have nothing to testify of Christ. So if the whole Bible testifies of Christ, we better figure out what the “Word of God” means. Jesus is the “Word of God” —the whole Bible testifies of Christ. That’s why Jesus is called the “Word of God”: *“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” *~ John 1:1, “And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called "The Word of God.” ~ Rev. 19:13. So Jesus is the Word of God–the Bible. Jesus is God’s thought made Audible.

So if the scriptures are what “testify of Christ”, then we have no choice but to use the Bible as our measuring rod to recieve “instruction”, “reproof”, “correction” and “instruction”. (2 Tim 3:16,17)

God’s true church will reflect the “Word of God”, but if they do not, then how can we take the “Word of the Church” above the “Word of God”? Obviously, they must not be God’s true church then. Remember, even Paul trembled for the church. The church was in deep trouble and apostasy, and Paul was constantly writing to them warning them of their peril. But yet it is interesting to see how Catholics of today see their church as so much holier than the church of Paul’s day.

EXAMPLE: How do you make the stretch between ‘God’s Church’ having authority and the application of Isaiah 8? Did Isaiah speak specifically about the future “Church founded by Jesus Christ”? or is there another ‘proof-text’ from St Paul (for example) saying Isaiah 8:20 MUST BE READ IN LIGHT OF ‘THE KEYS TO THE KINGDOM VERSES.’

YOU MADE THE STRETCH, YOU ARE INTERPRETING OUTSIDE OF SCRIPTURE.

Again, more quibbling on your part. It amuses me on how individuals as yourself will pick on the weakest part of the armor and unleash your attacks on that one point. I believe that the testimony Isaiah is speaking of is referring to the New Testament, but not relying on Isaiah 8:20 alone. We have plenty of evidence from 2 Tim 3:16 and 17,

I also want you to take careful notice to Acts 17:11 – These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

The Bereans were considered more “noble” than the Thessalonicans, and the scripture here makes it very plain that they did not just go by what their church told them. They “searched daily to see whether the things they were being taught were so”. In other words, regardless of what your Church says, you have to verify it in scripture to see whether it is SO!

Lie low, Ly, you are embarrassing yourself.
Go in peace.
Robert

“Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.” ~ Matt 10:34

The word (sword) of God separates the “wheat” from the “tares”. There can be no peace between the two.

Next I shall continue with SDA2RC. Remember, it’s pretty much 10 against 1 or 2. I have to reply to ALL of you! Of course, I asked for it when joining a Catholic Forum.

 

[Rbt_Southwell]

Can you give a better explanation? This is clearly the only interpretation. Virtually every Christian will recognize that the Old Testament was a book of “laws”—both moral and ceremonial, which included the 10 Commandments and the Mosaic Laws.

2 Tim. 3:16, 17 — *"**All scripture ***

 

[Lysimachus]

No Rbt, I’m not the one jumping around. You have full of assumptions built in that these writings are only for the Jews. The scriptures were written for “ALL MEN”, not just the Jews.

Let’s pick on just the Sabbath portion of scripture, and see if it applies to the gentiles as well:

Mark 2:27 – *“And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:” *

If it was for only the Jews, it would have said “The Sabbath was made for “Jews”, and not Jews for the Sabbath”.

Acts 18:1-11 – “After these things Paul departed from Athens, and came to Corinth; he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks. And he continued there a year and six months, teaching the word of God among them.”

Also, we are taught from scipture that we ALL are Jews inwardly. If you, Rbt, claim to be a Christian, you are a Jew:

“But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.” ~ Romans 2:29

We must remember that the Christian church today is modern Israel after the spirit, made up of both Jews and Gentiles. "For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances(Mosaic Laws); for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;" Ephesians 2:14, 15. Jesus abolished in His own flesh the law of commandments contained in ordinances (the ceremonial law) which separated Jews from Gentiles, so that today we are all one in Christ Jesus. He did not abolish the ten commandments, for He himself said “*Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.” * Matthew 5:17. To fulfill means to keep it, to honor it, to enforce it, by showing us how to keep the law correctly, and not legalistically as the Pharisees did.

Jesus even warned in Matthew 5:19: “Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven:* but whosoever shall do and teach them**, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” *

If we go according to your interpretation Rbt, the verse would have read thus:

“Whatever Jew therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach Jews so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whatever Jew shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven”

You see how ridiculous this sounds? It doesn’t make any sense! When you say that all these teachings were written for only the Jews, you sound like you’ve never read the Bible in your entire life.

Oh please, please do not refrain from grasping the simplicity of these texts.

 

[amun]

LOL! I have to say, an SDA to a Catholic has got to be just about one of the most hilarious things I’ve ever seen - almost comparable to someone who has once believed the world to be round being converted over to thinking its flat…but that’s besides the point. Makes me wonder if he really even took a Bible study…because some of the arguments being used are so tenuous that they can be countered by even some of the most rudimentarily experienced adventists.

I’d like to ask sda2rc a question.

You claim that the seventh day sabbath was only for jews, so when was the official starting point when God instituted the sabbath specifically for the jewish people?

 

[amun]

Rather than replying to this whole thread in its entirety, I’d like to make a few observations.

Speaking of SDAs being a “cult”, I’d like to know if it’s true that Catholics believe that someone MUST be catholic in order to be saved? (which, if true, makes catholics very cultish) Because SDAs do not believe that one must be an SDA in order to be saved, they believe that if you live up to all you know to be right you will be saved - even if you don’t believe in Jesus.

Take the reformer Martin Luther, for example. He did not keep the Sabbath, and yet, as Adventists we recognize that he did that which he knew to be right according to God and will be judged based on those merits (and that he will probably be saved).

Catholics on the other hand send Martin Luther to hell. Why? Because he wasn’t Catholic. Defining a key characteristic of a cult.

The other thing that really amazes me is how many catholics in this thread seem to be acting as though they believe in the Bible, or actually regard what it says, when the truth of the matter is that the mother church whom you are supposedly under does not recognize scripture as being an authority for salvation.

The catholic church has officialy declared an innumerable amount of times that that they changed the true sabbath from saturday to sunday strictly on the authority of the Pope over what the Bible CLEARLY teaches.

If you need a few references to what Catholic authorities have to say on the issue:

“Sunday is a Catholic institution, and its claims to observance can be defended only by Catholic principles… From the beginning to the end of Scripture there is not a single passage which warrants the transfer of weekly public worship from the last day of the week to the first.” - Catholic Press (Sydney), August 25, 1990.

“The sunday…is purely a creation of the Catholic Church.” - American Catholic Quarterly Review, January 1883

“Protestants in discarding the authority of the Roman [Catholic] Church, has no good reasons for its Sunday theory, and ought logically to keep Saturday as the Sabbath.” - John Gilmary Shea, in the American Catholic Quarterly Review, January 1883.

“Sunday…It is the law of the Catholic Church alone…” - American Sentinel (Catholic), June 1893.

“…the observance of Sunday by Protestants is an homage they pay, in spite of themselves, to the authority of the Catholic CHurch.” - Monsignor Louis Segar, Plain Talk About Protestantism of Today, p. 213.

“Question: Is the observance of Sunday as the day of rest a matter clearly laid down in Scripture?
Answer: It certainly is not; and yet all Protestants consider the observance of this particular day as essentially necessary to salvation. To say we observe the Sunday because Christ rose from the dead on that day, is to say we act ithout warrant of Scripture; and we might as well say that we should rest on Thursday, because Christ ascended to heaven on that day, and rested in reality from the work of redemption.” Dr. Stephen Keenan, The Controversial Catechism, p. 160

“Question: Have you any other way of proving that the Church has power to institute festivals of precept?
Answer: had she not such power, she could not have done that in which all modern relgionists agree with her – she could not have substituted the observance of Sunday, the first day of the week, for the observance of Saturday, the seventh day – a change for which there is no Scriptural authority.” – Dr. Stephen Keenan, A Doctrinal Catechism, 3rd Edition, p. 174.

…to be continued.

 

[amun]

“You may read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation, and you will not find a single line authorizing the sanctification of Sunday. The Scriptures enforce the religious observance of Saturday, a day which we never sanctify.” - Cardinal Gibbons, The Faith of Our Fathers, 92nd Edition, p. 89.

“He [the pope] can pronounce sentences and judgements in cotradiction to the rights of nations, to the law of God and man … He can free himself from the commands fof the apostles, he being their superior, and from the rules of the old testament … The Pope has the power to change times, to abrogate laws, and to dispense with all things, over the precepts of Christ.” - Decretal, De Translat. Episcop. Cap.

“The Pope’s will stand for reason. He can dispense above the law; and of wrong make right, by correcting and hchanging laws.” - Pope CNIcholas, Dist. 96, Quoted in Facts for the Times, 1893, pp. 55, 56.

"The Bible says remember that thou keep holy the sabbath day. The catholic church says No! By my divine power I abolish the Sabbath day and command you to keep holy the first day of the week. And lo the entire civilized world bows down in reverent obedience to the command of the holy Catholic church. - Father Enright, American Sentinel, June 1983.

“She took the pagan Sunday and made it the Christian Sunday … and thus the pagan Sunday, dedicated to Balder, became the Christian Sunday sacred to Jesus.” - Catholic World, March 1894, p. 809.

“Sunday is the mark of our authority … The Church is above the Bible, and this transference of Sabbath observance is proof of that fact.” - Catholic Record, September 1, 1923.

“Question: Which is the Sabbath day?
Answer: Saturday is the Sabbath.
Question: Why do we observe Sunday instead of Saturday?
Answer: We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church in the coundil of Laodicea [ad 336] transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday.” - Peter Geiermann, The Convert’s Catechism of Catholic Doctrine 1934, p 50.

“Question: What if the Holy Scriptures command one thing, and the Pop another contrary to it?
Answer: The Holy Scriptures must be thrown aside.
Question: What is the Pop?
Answer: He is the VIcar of Christ, King of Kings, and Lord of Lords, and there is but one Judgment-Seat belonging to God and the Pop.” - Roy Livesey, 1998, Understanding the New Age, World Government and World Religion, p. 104.

“Sunday is founded not on Scripture, but on tradition, and is a dinstictly Catholic institution.” - Catholic Record, Sepember 17, 1893.

“The authority of the church could therefore not be bound to the authority of the Scriptures, because the Church had changed … the Sabbath into Sunday, nt by command of Christ, but by its own authority.” - Canon and Tradition. p. 263

So it is very clear that by definition a catholic does not believe in the authority of the scriptures. I found it staggering how many catholics don’t even know what their own church believes, because if they did, they wouldn’t even be trying to defend the whole switch from saturday to sunday.

It would be more honest to just admit that they don’t go by the Bible instead of going on and on quoting scripture when it doesn’t even mean anything to them.

My counsel to SDA2RC would be to go back and study his Bible and forget about being an adventist or a protestant or a catholic, as your salvation is not tied to any specific denomenation but by Christ himself.

 

[Rbt_Southwell]

amun;

Have you wrestled with any snakes lately?

And, are the women folk in you family following Jewish custom re purification and separation from the menfolk at worship services?

These were all ‘laws’ under the Old Covenant, aka Old Testament.

You’re Jewish, right? Like my wife?

Robert

 

[amun]

amun;

Have you wrestled with any snakes lately?

And, are the women folk in you family following Jewish custom re purification and separation from the menfolk at worship services?

These were all ‘laws’ under the Old Covenant, aka Old Testament.

You’re Jewish, right? Like my wife?

Robert

No, thank goodness they were all done away with at the cross.

 

[FCEGM]

. . .

So it is very clear that by definition a catholic does not believe in the authority of the scriptures. I found it staggering how many catholics don’t even know what their own church believes, because if they did, they wouldn’t even be trying to defend the whole switch from saturday to sunday . . .

Such a charge overlooks that we are no longer bound by the Law, of which the Ten Commandments are a part. If we are bound by the Ten Commandments as written, then we must also be subject to the specific punishments prescribed in the OT for breaking each Commandment. Yet, we are not. Thus, we are not bound by the Ten Commandments themselves (which are legal requirements), but by the righteousness (perfected in the Person of Christ) that lies behind each of the Ten. And so, by selecting Sunday as its day of worship, the Church holds to the righteousness of the Commandment while being free from the Law of the Commandment itself. Further, no Christians of the early Church kept the Sabbath observance. On Saturdays, the earliest Christians lived and worshipped as Jews, evangelizing their Jewish brethren in the synagogues (a work). Their “day of rest,” the day on which they gathered to pray and worship among themselves exclusively was the following day, the Lord’s Day: Sunday.

 

[amun]

Such a charge overlooks that we are no longer bound by the Law, of which the Ten Commandments are a part. If we are bound by the Ten Commandments as written, then we must also be subject to the specific punishments prescribed in the OT for breaking each Commandment. Yet, we are not. Thus, we are not bound by the Ten Commandments themselves (which are legal requirements), but by the righteousness (perfected in the Person of Christ) that lies behind each of the Ten. And so, by selecting Sunday as its day of worship, the Church holds to the righteousness of the Commandment while being free from the Law of the Commandment itself. Further, no Christians of the early Church kept the Sabbath observance. On Saturdays, the earliest Christians lived and worshipped as Jews, evangelizing their Jewish brethren in the synagogues (a work). Their “day of rest,” the day on which they gathered to pray and worship among themselves exclusively was the following day, the Lord’s Day: Sunday.

I have one question for you. Do you believe in sin, and if so, what is “sin”?

 

[vtech]

Hi to all my brothers and sisters in Jesus,I would like to talk about the change of the sabbath day in a loving and kind way,.And also about the law of God.So now my sister we will start with what Jesus says about the word of God,2 Timothy 15:16,And that from a child thou hast known,the holy scriptures,which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus 16,All scripture is given by inspiration of God,and is profitable for doctrine for reproof,forcorrection,for instruction in righteousness.17 That the man of God may be perfect,throughly fernished unto all good works.The bible is the only word of God.For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book,If any man shall add unto these things,God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book.And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy,God shall take away his part out of the book of life,and out of the holy city,aand from the things which are written in this book.Revelation 18:19…The sabbath was givin 2300 years before the existence of the jews as a memorial for all mankind,MK2:27,28.Gods commandments are heavens eternal cod of conduct which stands fast forever,PS,111:7,8…Gods law leads us to see our guilt and drives us to Jesus.Rom,3:20.We are not under the law as a mesns of salvation.Salvation comes totally and always by grace.Although we are not under the law,this dose not give us liberty to break Gods law.Rom 6;14,15.Love aiways leads to obedience,Jesus said,If you love me,keep my commandments.Jn,14:15.He that keepeth not his commandmends is a liar and the truth is not in him.1 jn2:4,5.In the new covenant,Jesus writes his law in our hearts and in our minds.Heb,8:10.And he shall speak great words against the most high,and shall wear out the saints of the most high,and think to change times and laws,and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time,Daniel,7:25.It is a well known fact that the papacy in historyand from the bible,ruled for 1260 years and killed millions of saints.They also changedGods law as follows,they changed the second commandment,also the forth commandment from saturday to sunday just as the bible said they would.Only Jesus can forgive sins,we are not to bow down to idols[saints],we are not to pray to mother mary,only to the father,the son ,and the holy spirit.In the book of Matt Jesus says the only one to call father is in heaven.I will not alter nor break the thing that is gone out of my lips.Psalms89:34…I say this with love in my heart,Ihate no one and only want to tell the truth.The only way to heaven is through the word,and the word is Jesus Christ[the bible],and the word became flesh.May God bless you in all things,Im not judgeing no one,love vtech[mitchell].My e-mail is available through my profile page here. God bless…

 

[vtech]

I have one question for you. Do you believe in sin, and if so, what is “sin”?

Sin is the breaking of Gods law.

 

[amun]

Sin is the breaking of Gods law.

But our friend FCEGM doesn’t believe that there is a law. So I guess there’s no such thing as sin!

 

[Rbt_Southwell]

No, thank goodness they were all done away with at the cross.

Amun:

Here you go again: making goofy assertions WITHOUT Scriptural basis or Tradition [as shown in other ECF writings] to back it up.

What NEWER version of the Bible do you SDAs use?

Is it like the BoM or the JW Bible?

I ask because in all seriousness your theology is without foundation or basis in the teachings of Jesus.

Sorry:shrug:

Robert

 

[amun]

Amun:

Here you go again: making goofy assertions WITHOUT Scriptural basis or Tradition [as shown in other ECF writings] to back it up.

What NEWER version of the Bible do you SDAs use?

Is it like the BoM or the JW Bible?

I ask because in all seriousness your theology is without foundation or basis in the teachings of Jesus.

Sorry:shrug:

Robert

SDAs use the KJV mostly but we also use the NIV sometimes…I also read interlinear Bibles.

So let me get this straight, you don’t believe that all of the ceremonial rites and feasts were done away with at the cross? You still believe that they are obligatory today? If so, then why are Catholics not keeping them?

 

[Schabel]

But our friend FCEGM doesn’t believe that there is a law. So I guess there’s no such thing as sin!

Rather than making a caricature of FCEGM’s excellent synopsis, why not respond to it?

 

[Rbt_Southwell]

SDAs use the KJV mostly but we also use the NIV sometimes…I also read interlinear Bibles.

So let me get this straight, you don’t believe that all of the ceremonial rites and feasts were done away with at the cross? You still believe that they are obligatory today? If so, then why are Catholics not keeping them?

Thanks for responding, Amun.

Do you use the 1611 KJV, the one authorized for use in High Church (i.e. Anglican Catholic) liturgy by King James II?

As to the other part: it was directed towards you.

It is hypocritical to pick and choose WHAT pre-Christian rites and traditions you want to follow.

Either try to out-do the Ancient Jews or admit your religion is a new cloth cut from Ellen White’s writings.

Can’t have it both ways, that’s the problem.

We Catholics inherited (as did the Orthodox) many things from the Jewish way of worship, we use the Septuagint (as most of them used and as our Lord quoted from: or do you doubt that too?)

Revelations is our Divine Liturgy: it is NOT a prediction, a coded book of what the end of the world will look like.

It’s not “Hidden,” amun, it is “Revelations.”

SDAs and Catholics are worlds apart. The trouble for your understanding is, the world we are on is the one Jesus founded His Church.

Robert

 

[amun]

Rather than making a caricature of FCEGM’s excellent synopsis, why not respond to it?

I’m waiting for him to answer my question (my comment was in response to what vtech said).

Would you like to answer the question instead of dodging my questions like everyone else is doing?

Robert,

Thanks for responding, Amun.

Do you use the 1611 KJV, the one authorized for use in High Church (i.e. Anglican Catholic) liturgy by King James II?

As to the other part: it was directed towards you.

It is hypocritical to pick and choose WHAT pre-Christian rites and traditions you want to follow.

Either try to out-do the Ancient Jews or admit your religion is a new cloth cut from Ellen White’s writings.

Can’t have it both ways, that’s the problem.

We Catholics inherited (as did the Orthodox) many things from the Jewish way of worship, we use the Septuagint (as most of them used and as our Lord quoted from: or do you doubt that too?)

Revelations is our Divine Liturgy: it is NOT a prediction, a coded book of what the end of the world will look like.

It’s not “Hidden,” amun, it is “Revelations.”

SDAs and Catholics are worlds apart. The trouble for your understanding is, the world we are on is the one Jesus founded His Church.

Robert

Why does there have to be so much red herring? Why can’t you just address the questions and points head on? I asked you a question and you try telling me something about EGW…nobody is talking about her, we’re talking about the BIBLE and what IT has to say. I don’t want to hear about how you’re in the church that Christ founded, I want to know where you stand scripturally.

So I ask you again. Do you believe that we are still obliged to keep all of the rites and feasts contained in the law of ordinances?

And if you’re really feeling brave, you might want to explain to me exactly what “sin” is?