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Catdan
Guest
Identifying the Antichrist - Part 1
youtube.com/watch?v=R2CJTFSU6Bk&feature=player_embedded
Identifying the Antichrist - Part 2
youtube.com/watch?v=Uizh2nGCTKc&feature=related
youtube.com/watch?v=R2CJTFSU6Bk&feature=player_embedded
Identifying the Antichrist - Part 2
youtube.com/watch?v=Uizh2nGCTKc&feature=related
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greggy53
Guest
I did comment earlier today in post #566. If you can respond to it that would be a nice start. Basically, your interpretations of scripture just like any other Protestant group are flawed. The word of God was given to the Church for the Church not the other way around. The Church is the pillar and foundation of truth. That is what scripture says. The Catholic Church with the guidance of the Holy Spirit determined which books and letters belonged in the Bible in the year 387 AD at the council of Rome. Those exact same books are in my Bible today…But most likely not in yours. So, I would have to say that you and other Protestant groups are handicapped because you do not have the complete Bible, nor do you have the fullness of truth which has been revealed in the scriptures to the Catholic Church. Jesus did not establish a Bible. He established a Church, and if you were to do an honest and independent study of the history of Christianity you would find that the history of Christianity is Catholic.Greggy, I was hoping that you could tell me what your thoughts about how our beliefs are wrong from the Bible so I can get an understanding from your beliefs.
Now, it’s your turn. In my earlier post #566 I asked if the official postion of the SDA on abortion was pro-choice?.
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greggy53
Guest
Here is the problem with all of the interpretations of scripture that you have copied and pasted here. We do not recognize any authority outside of the leadership of the Catholic Church’s to interpret scripture.
We believe the Catholic Church alone has that authority. Big question for you: Why should we accept your authority?? You may say “Well, the Bible says this or the Bible says that.”But in reality you are telling us what you think the Bible says, and we believe that only the Church has the authority to do that. Why? Because the Church and Christ are one, and the Bible plainly says so.
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greggy53
Guest
Catdan: What you must first do before I will listen to anything you have to say is convince me that the Catholic Church does not have the authority, and guidance of the Holy Spirit. I have scripture at my disposal, and the writings of the early Christian Church fathers. I have had SDA claim that the writings of the early Church were falsified, but I have yet to see any evidence that this took place. Without evidence why should I listen to you?
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SOSOLAK
Guest
Thanks Tqualey, for leading me to the website. I am really blessed to find out about Torah. Yes you are correct that “The Law" to the Jews was far more then the 10 Commandments…
I realized that Torah is believed to be written by Moses consisting of the ceremonial laws and the 10 commandments. Either Received as direct inspiration or dictation from God. Also I realized that when Moses died Additional things were ascribed in the Torah by many hands throughout the centuries that may add into strings of ceremonial laws till the latest (?) BC. I also find out that on the way, they camp at Mount Sinai/Horeb Moses receives the Torah, including the Ten Commandments, from God, and mediates His laws and Covenant (Exodus 19-24)
Hence, whatever day Sabbath is the children of Israel are required to keep it as a holy day. All these ceremonial laws were put away because of how the Jews (pharises and Scribes) were using religious to be extreme of legalistic. At the same time using all the ceremonial laws to gain salvation.
But the 10 command which Sabbath is the 4th commandment (exodus 20:8) is not nailed on the cross.
Jesus is go to church on Sabbath. We’ll that’s why I asked walker did we still use the same days to name the days as Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday and the 7th day is Sabbath). If you agree that Sunday is the first day and Sabbath the seventh day from creation as someone mentioned in the forum. Then when the calendar period came and we named the day according to the 1st day as Sunday, etc and 7thday is the Sabbath. Then why do we have to worship on Sunday (1st day)? .Jesus may respect his day(Sabbath)that’s why he rose on the first day of the week.
God never change and he will still want you and I to worship on Sabbath- sorry I did not go to church on Sabbath but studying the scripture I sort of having a problem here.
God bless you
I realized that Torah is believed to be written by Moses consisting of the ceremonial laws and the 10 commandments. Either Received as direct inspiration or dictation from God. Also I realized that when Moses died Additional things were ascribed in the Torah by many hands throughout the centuries that may add into strings of ceremonial laws till the latest (?) BC. I also find out that on the way, they camp at Mount Sinai/Horeb Moses receives the Torah, including the Ten Commandments, from God, and mediates His laws and Covenant (Exodus 19-24)
Hence, whatever day Sabbath is the children of Israel are required to keep it as a holy day. All these ceremonial laws were put away because of how the Jews (pharises and Scribes) were using religious to be extreme of legalistic. At the same time using all the ceremonial laws to gain salvation.
But the 10 command which Sabbath is the 4th commandment (exodus 20:8) is not nailed on the cross.
Jesus is go to church on Sabbath. We’ll that’s why I asked walker did we still use the same days to name the days as Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday and the 7th day is Sabbath). If you agree that Sunday is the first day and Sabbath the seventh day from creation as someone mentioned in the forum. Then when the calendar period came and we named the day according to the 1st day as Sunday, etc and 7thday is the Sabbath. Then why do we have to worship on Sunday (1st day)? .Jesus may respect his day(Sabbath)that’s why he rose on the first day of the week.
God never change and he will still want you and I to worship on Sabbath- sorry I did not go to church on Sabbath but studying the scripture I sort of having a problem here.
God bless you
Hi, Sosolak,
Welcome to the list…
I think Walker is totally correct in what he said.
“The Law” to the Jews was far more then the 10 Commandments… it is other-wise known as the Torah. Here is a link: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torah. If you want another way to look at this and how Christ fulfilled the Law, the 10 Commandments would be like learning the alphabet, the Beatitudes would be writing a love letter. Here in Matthew 5:1-12 is where we as Christians are challenged to move beyond the basic as we follow Christ.
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When he saw the crowds, he went up the mountain, and after he had sat down, his disciples came to him.
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He began to teach them, saying:
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"Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
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Blessed are they who mourn, for they will be comforted.
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Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the land.
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Blessed are they who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be satisfied.
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Blessed are the merciful, for they will be shown mercy.
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Blessed are the clean of heart, for they will see God.
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Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called children of God.
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Blessed are they who are persecuted for the sake of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
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Blessed are you when they insult you and persecute you and utter every kind of evil against you (falsely) because of me.
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Rejoice and be glad, for your reward will be great in heaven. Thus they persecuted the prophets who were before you. **
In my opinion, the time and effort spent on ‘defending and re-defining’ the Sabbath in the manner of the SDA is a sinful waste of both time and talent. Christ has set the tasks before us in these verses - did you notice that there is no, “Blessed are the Sabbath keepers…” ? Many of the reasons for this were identified by Walker. Let me add one more: from the time that Moses received the 10 Commandments until Christ began His Public Ministery, the Jewish religious leaders had put all kinds of requirements and restrictions on the Sabbath so that it became binding chains. When Christ told the Pharisees (Mark 2:27) that the Sabbath was made for man - Christ freed man from these man-made observances…so that man could focus on God.
Just look around you at the SDA approach to worshiping God. E. G. White with her limited focus and her desire for the novel on brought a group of floundering Millerites out of their Great Disappointment and headed them off towards destruction from a new cliff.
My suggestion would be to go over what Walker posted and do some prayerful reflection. The challenge that Christ gave us in Matthew 5 is still with us. With His Grace we can move forward to this Blessed state as we interact in the real world where grief, pride, hungar and a host of other evils are still with us.
God bless
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SOSOLAK
Guest
Yes, it makes no difference to us. but the emphasis that the SDAs place on Saturday is as if God named the seventh day Saturday and made Saturday the rest day. That is the point I’m trying to get across. They are so wrapped up in ritual like the Pharisees and scribes of old that they can’t see the deep pit of the error that they have fallen into.
Jav, God is so wise that he did not mentioned the day of the week as Sunday, Mon, Tue, Wed, Thur, Fri. and Saturday during his creation because Human beings can and will change the name . Therefore we find this in Genesis 1, he used the word” such as “evening and morning were the first day, evening and morning were the second day etc .
I will also say here that either a catholic or SDA can become like the Pharisees, and scribe; so extreme with their religious rites that they might come up with extra laws to force a poor believer to follow in order to gain eternal life. The Pharisees thought that keeping or doing all the good works is a key to be saved in Gods kingdom or gaining favor from God (save by works). That’s why we find in the New Testament, they make noise to attract people when they give offerings in the synagogue. They make rules that you only walk certain distance during Sabbath etc.
The day to worship really matters, though there may be not text in the bible to prove that you will be saved by keeping sabbath or Sunday. Because in Revelation John the beloveth wrote that we will worship God from sabath to sabbath or you may say from sunday to sunday.
God bless
PAX DOMINI
Shalom Aleichem
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Javl
Guest
I understand the reason why SDAs worship on Saturday, but do you understand why the rest of Christianity worships on Sunday? It has been explained many times on this thread…
Sunday is the day Jesus arose from the dead. His resurrection was the start of a new creation and He gave us a new and everlasting covenant. The old covenant was for the Jews alone. Since He did give His Church the authority to bind and to loose ( and it will be so in Heaven ), the Church uses that authority to honor Him and celebrate His resurrection on the same day that he rose from the dead. It has been so from the beginning, and will be so until the end.
As for the commandments, He gave us a new one, to love our neighbor as we love ourselves. By following and adhereing to this new commandment, it would be impossible to violate any of the old ones.
Blessings.
PAX DOMINI
Shalom Aleichem
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greggy53
Guest
We have ample evidence in the NT, and in the writings of the early Christian fathers (Apostolic tradition) that Christians have been worshipping on Sunday since the NT was written. We believe that God wants us to worship in Sunday. Jesus went to temple on the Sabbath because he was a Jew. We worship on Sunday because we are Christians, and we worship Jesus not the OT laws. You folks are fixated on the Saturday Sunday thing and you are missing the point altogether. You can quote scriptures until you are blue in the face but it won’t prove your point. You don’t have the authority, nor the fullness of truth that has been revealed to the Church.
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phummel
Guest
Hello greggy and SOSOLAK,
Well you’ve seen me post this before:
Romans 14:5-6
5One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind.
6He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord.
I found this guy pretty interesting - Samuele Bacchiocchi, an Adventist, who was privileged to do his research at the Pontifical Gregorian University in Rome.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuele_Bacchiocchi
biblicalperspectives.com/books/sabbath_to_sunday/
There certainly seems to be early evidence of Christians meeting on Sunday.
Anyway greggy,
I’m curious about the authority of the church. What scripture do you use to support apostolic succession and the authority of a political theocracy?
Is it strictly Matthew 16:17?
Doesn’t a church run the risk of misrepresenting Him when it acts in His name? I’m thinking crusades, inquisition, etc. Really any time men/women present themselves as God’s true representatives. Isn’t that really taking God’s name in vain?
I guess I see God as a loving god. One who wants to be loved freely by His intelligent creatures. He gives us free will. Yes, He is a God of Order and I find when I put my life in harmony with His will, it is good. Does the Infinite One exercise His authority over us and force us to do and think the way He wants us to? No!
Why shouldn’t we as Christians representing Him on earth want to extend this freedom to our brothers and sisters?
Can you have love without free will? If action is forced by authority, is that love?
Thoughts?
God bless you,
paul
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greggy53
Guest
Jesus established his Church with the disciples and St Peter. He gave St Peter the keys to the Kingdom of Heaven. He told him: “Whatsoever you bind on earth is bound in heaven.” This is a lot of power to give to a human being. But he did it knowing that Peter had denied him 3 times. So the opportunity is there for the abuse of power. Speaking of true representatives. Doesn’t your Church leaders represent themselves as the purveyor’s of God’s truth and therefore his true representatives? By your definition then any one who attempts to become God’s true representative is taking God’s name in vain…Unless of course you think your leaders above error, and sinless. The symbols of the keys to the Kingdom of Heaven represent Authority, and succession. What kind of a Church could Jesus maintain if all the authority of leadership died with the disciples?? While Christ’s Church is not perfect (because of the imperfect humans in it) it is untied spiritually with Christ. The Church and Christ are one…Jesus said this himself.
What action are you saying is forced by the Churches authority? …Please don’t say the crusades or the inquisition. Abuses of authority occurred with your Protestant forefathers as well. And don’t tell me that you are not the product of the Protestant Reformation because you are, and your leaders are as susceptible to the same weaknesses as the Catholic leaders. The difference is that the Catholic church also has the authority , and guidance of the Holy Spirit, an your leaders do not.
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greggy53
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Hey where is Catdan???..Cat got your tongue?
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Catdan
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Ha Greggy, away on a trip at the moment so can’t get to a pc that easy while I’m away from home. So hold on to your nickers!!! I suppose what I’ve seen from your replies is that you have your opinions and there can’t be any other opinions apart from yours. So it’s really a complete waste of time communicating with you. I have supplied a fairly decent document with some SDA beliefs and you knock it down straight away because no one else has the athourity apart from your church to be able to interpret the bible. From what I can see the bible interprets itself, not any individuals. I think you said something about your church has the holy spirit and since this your church and the holy spirit are the only that can interpret the bible. What a load of rubbish. Any individual that asks the holy spirit to enter their lives he will freely enter. The pope and any leader in the churches are as sinful as you and I. They are born into sin from the seeds from our own fathers unlike Jesus whoes seed came from our God the sinless.
With regard to abortion you probably no about it more than I do so I’ll let you answer your answered question yourself.
With regard to abortion you probably no about it more than I do so I’ll let you answer your answered question yourself.
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phummel
Guest
Hey greggy,
thanks for the answer. I think you are saying that the scriptural support is Matthew 16:17. Surely a great blessing to Peter.
Yes, I would say anyone who claims God’s authority on earth is taking liberties with God’s name. Individuals, my church, your church, anyone. We should recognize how inadequate and unworthy we are and be humble.
I don’t believe in an authority of leadership. Jesus himself was pastoral and not someone clammering for political power. I just keep my eye on the Master.
In a previous post you asked by what authority do I have or anyone have to interpret scripture? I guess I don’t see a need to be a part of a formal church organization in order to read the Word and have a relationship with God. To me, the church is just the company of God’s friends - not limited to any organization or denomination.
No doubt that Protestants have committed abuses throughout history too.
Well, I appreciate you giving me feedback and sharing the origin of “authority”.
God bless you,
paul
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greggy53
Guest
Certainly not true, I welcome your opinion, but what you posted was someone else’s opinion. I really want to know what you believe, and more importantly *why *you believe it. You did ask me for my “thoughts”, so I gave them to you. If I wasn’t interested in what other people thought I wouldn’t be posting on this forum.
The Bible interprets itself? How does it do that? People are required I think to interpret anything the Bible has to say. And that is where the issue lies. 10 people can sit down at a table read the same scripture and it is very possible that they will have several different interpretations of what that one scripture means! It happens all the time. There are over 10 thousand Protestant denominations because they all disagree on what some parts of scripture are telling us. So I’m not trying to be smug or rude when I ask you why I should believe in your particular interpretations of certain scriptures. I want to be sure of what God’s word is telling me, and that leads us to the next part of your response.
Yes only the Catholic Church can give us the fullness of truth in God’s word because Jesus gave the Church the holy spirit and the authority. It’s in the scriptures.I think you said something about your church has the holy spirit and since this your church and the holy spirit are the only that can interpret the bible. What a load of rubbish. Any individual that asks the Holy Spirit to enter their lives he will freely enter. The pope and any leader in the churches are as sinful as you and I. They are born into sin from the seeds from our own fathers unlike Jesus whoes seed came from our God the sinless.
With regard to abortion you probably no about it more than I do so I’ll let you answer your answered question yourself.
2nd Peter:20 “Understanding this first, that no prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation.”
The Church has that authority, not you or me why?..because of the very reasons I stated above. Christ intended for his Church to be one, not hopelessly divided like our Protestant brothers. That is not to say that any of are sinless including the Pope. And that is not to say that the Holy Spirit does not guide all who seek God. He most certainly does. Protestants can and do certainly have personal relationships with our Lord. I never said otherwise. But the Catholic Church is the only Christian Church that traces it’s beginnings all the way back to the NT. I believe that this Church holds the correct interpretations of scripture and is doing Gods will here on earth.
Lastly, my question on the SDA position on abortion is a legitimate one. I heard someone say that they (The SDA) were officially pro-choice. I don’t know this for a fact and would not repeat a slander against them. That is why I asked, but evidently you do not or cannot answer the question.
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greggy53
Guest
Well I don’t know where you get that philosophy from. Jesus certainly gave a lot of authority to the disciples. They cast out demons and healed the sick in his name. If that isn’t claiming God’s authority and power I don’t know what is.
I don’t believe you have to be a member of a church to ask for or receive God’s mercy. But he did establish a Church, and he did give the leaders of that Church his authority. It’s all over the NT. I wonder perhaps if you are disgruntled, or weary of the deceptions of men! I have a nephew who told me once that he wouldn’t go to Church because it was full of hypocrites. I told him that’s like saying you won’t go to see the doctor because his office is full of sick people.
Nice talking to you too.
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SOSOLAK
Guest
Thanks greggy i fully understood why people keep sunday.I also agree with you that Jesus is a Jew but I wonder if Jesus went to church on sabbath because he was a jew. Jesus is God himself and i supposed he went to the temple on sabbath because that is the Lords Day(as his custom was he went to the temple on sabbath).
Hence, i congradulate you for clarifying why we worship on sunday. However,could you give me some bible text in the scripture that christains have been worshiping on sunday since the NTas you stated.
I would also ask you to help me understand where did church get her authority to endorse the day of worship? If all the churches claim to get authority from God then why confussing us which is GODs day of worship.
Finally, keeping sunday a day of worship because jesus rose on the first day of the week is like celebrating queens birth day or independence day.Sabbath you read in Geneses is a day God santified and rested from his creation. Hence we both may agree that Keeping sabbath in memorial of God’s creation or keeping sunday because Jesus rose on Sunday.We can’t put away OT and say it was changed in the NT. All the prophecy in the OT was fulfilled in the NT.
God bless
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SOSOLAK
Guest
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greggy53
Guest
Sure, in St John’s Apocalypse John states that he was in the spirit on “The Lords day”. Now how can I infer this was Sunday and not Saturday?. Because St John was a Jew if he had been in the spirit on the Sabbath he would most likely have said: “I was in the spirit on the Sabbath”…But he didn’t. Therefore it is logical to assume he meant Sunday.
Also in Acts:20: 7 “And on the first day of the week, when we were assembled to break bread, Paul discoursed with them, being to depart on the morrow: and he continued his speech until midnight. 8 And there were a great number of lamps in the upper chamber where we were assembled. 9 And a certain young man named Eutychus, sitting on the window, being oppressed with a deep sleep, (as Paul was long preaching,)…” In the above scriptures we see the Church gathered to worship on a Sunday.
The Church gets it’s authority from Jesus Christ who told us in scripture that he was Lord of the Sabbath. Jesus gave this authority to the Church when he said:" Whatsoever you bind on earth is bound in heaven". That is how your KJV says it. Note the word “Whatsoever”…That means anything, which would include which day of the week to worship on. There is no confusion among Christians about which day to worship; if you are confused look to your own leaders.
We celebrate the Holy Mass on the first day of the week because Jesus rose from the dead and made the world anew on the first day as a new creation. Remember from Genesis the first day of creation God separated the light from the darkness. On Easter Sunday Jesus rose from the dead. St John also tells us that he was the "light of the world."I believe it was St Ignatius who first made this analogy in the 2nd century.
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greggy53
Guest
I would also like to comment on your statement above. The Church did indeed “put away” what was commanded in the old testament. If you recall from the book of Acts 15 the council of Jerusalem changed what was commanded in the old testament concerning circumcision and said that is was no longer required. The Church went against OT scripture. The authority to do this was stated by St Peter (the leader and 1st Pope)
Acts15:28 For it hath seemed good to the Holy Ghost and to us, to lay no further burden upon you than these necessary things: 29 That you abstain from things sacrificed to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication; from which things keeping yourselves, you shall do well. Fare ye well. 30 They therefore being dismissed, went down to Antioch; and gathering together the multitude, delivered the epistle.
“Us” Being the Church of course.
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