Seventh Day Adventists

[tqualey]

Hi, ern42,

Wait no longer!

This is where there are at least two major problems …

(1) you are pinning everything on an impossibility - and if you don’t believe me, just go immediately go to John 21:25. One of the writers of the Gospels plainly tells you not everything is written down - so, how can you hope to find all you want from a book that identifies its immediate limitations.

(2) you reject the Catholic Church - the Church founded by Christ on Peter (Matt 16) and Christ gave Peter a blank check when He said, “Whatever you bind on earth is bound in heaven…” Sunday is the day of worship and this was established to honor Christ’s Resurrection.

So, here we have this really big issue: do you believe Christ’s words as recorded in the Gospels…or not? The OT laid he foundation for the NT - are you keeping all the laws of Jewish Faith today? Just what is it you believe in with Christ?

Truly ern, get a grip - this is important. Here you have the clear words of Christ in John 6 that to have life in you, you must eat the Flesh of Christ and drink His Blood - yet you find a way to deny the plainly written words in the Bible - and this Bible comes from the Catholic Church that you loudly renouce… you know, the same Church founded by Christ.

But you somehow have muddle up one of the quotes that you are so insistent on having. Let me clarify the portion that you omitted… Luke 10:25:29

If fact the only thing that guarantees our salvation is LOVING JESUS CHRIST with ALL OUR HEARTS, but it doesn’t stop there, because when you LOVE GOD, you obey his commandments, and you do HIS will, not because you have to, because your heart tells it’s the right thing to do.

**25
There was a scholar of the law who stood up to test him and said, “Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?”
26
Jesus said to him, “What is written in the law? How do you read it?”
27
He said in reply, “You shall love the Lord, your God, with all your heart, with all your being, with all your strength, and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself.”
28
He replied to him, “You have answered correctly; do this and you will live.”
29
But because he wished to justify himself, he said to Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?” **

You are perfectly correct that mere membership in any church is no guarantee of salvation. But, not everyone who says “Lord, Lord” is going to heaven (Matt 7:21-23). We are required to act - (works! ) if we are going to love our neighbor!

Admittedly, we are required to do other things, too … in John 6, Jesus clearly tells us that we are to believe Christ because God has sent Him (and we believe Christ by doing what He said, following His commands and obeying the authority structure Christ set up with the Apostles - AND - their Successors. Yes, it is true - you can actually trace the Church founded by Jesus Christ from Peter (33AD) to Benedict XVI (2009AD). The earliest one can trace SDA back is to 1870 with C.T.Russell. The Catholic Church claims Apostolic Succession because these 12 Apostles - the men picked by Christ - are the ones who preached to the world about Saving Mission of Jesus Christ. Conversly, Russell separated himself from one Protestant church (Presbyterian) to join another (Congregational Church) and then separated from them to form yet another Protestant Church.

For someone yearing for the Biblical message, please note, it is not found in jumping from heresy to heresy and then only claiming parts of Bible you like. This is honestly a major issue and one you need to address. Praying to the Holy Spirit is an excellent idea - please note, I have not seen anyone making fun on this List of the Word of God. So, please pray for all of us and for yourself, too.

God bless

 

[walker_p]

I left out the first part of the v. because I wanted to key on what Jesus was saying specifically about His words.

Jesus is here telling the crowd exactly what He meant by eating His flesh and that is to eat (understand) His words Jn. 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, This is confirmed by Peter in v. 68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.

He is saying sin (works of the flesh) prophets nothing. Gal. 5:18But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
19Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
But the fruits of the Spirit are manifest in His WORDS.

Sure He is. He is saying when you eat of the WORD, the bread of life You have life in you. Psalm 119:11Thy **word **have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee. Romans 623 says “For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.” We die through sin but are made alive through the **WORD **made flesh.

First of all Jesus is not talking about some blasphemous Catholic rite called the eucharist.

Well, let me spell it out for you. Here is 1Cor 2:12-14 again
1Cor 2:12Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Paul says that we (meaning brothers and sisters in Christ), have received not the Spirit of the world see Gal. 5 18-22 above, but the Spirit which is of God. Jn. 6:63b **The words I have spoken to you are spirit and life. **And we recieve this not through the wisdom of man but through the Holy Spirit.
Jn14:26But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
27Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. John also teaches this in his first epistle

1Jn.2:27But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. This is also brought out in Jeramiah 31:33But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. This is actually the definition of the new covenant. That no more are we to be taught of men, but by the Words of Jesus through the power of the Spirit.

Are you a natural man? That you cannot perceive the things of the Spirit of God? Are they folishness to you? Because you indicate that these vs. have nothing to do with Jn. 6 when clearly they elaborate on what Jesus is saying when He says "The words I have spoken to you are spirit and life."

Just out of curiosity what do you think the word “unworthily” means in this v.

Why?

I don’t care what the church fathers say.

Saint Paul certainly believed in the real presence of Jesus in the Eucharist. Jesus told us what he meant by eating his flesh and he didn’t say anything about symbols. John 6:51 “I am the living bread that came down from heaven; whoever eats this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world.” So the bread of the Eucharist is Jesus’ actual flesh. John 6:53 -56 …“Amen, amen I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day. For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him.” Seems pretty clear and straightforward to me. Why do you refuse to accept Jesus’ clear teaching? Are you a natural man who cannot accept the things of God? Jesus did not say to eat bread that symbolizes his flesh and drink wine that symbolizes his blood. He said that the bread of the Eucharist is his flesh. Truth always precedes heresy and false teaching. Which belief about the Eucharist came first: a) the Eucharist is only a symbol or b) the Eucharist is Jesus’ actual body and blood? Whichever belief was held and taught by the Church first is the truth. Whichever belief came later is heresy. Therefore, we know with 100% certainty that the idea the Eucharist is only a symbol is heresy and false teaching. The Church taught otherwise for 15 centuries. I refuse to accept the protestant blasphemy that the Eucharist is only a symbol. For protestants who do not have a valid priesthood, it is only a symbol. But not so for Catholics.

The verses you list are important, but they have nothing to do with Jesus’ discourse in Chapter 6 of John’s Gospel. Jesus is not telling the crowd what he meant by eating his flesh. He already told them that. What Jesus meant by eating his flesh was to eat his flesh. It could not be any clearer. He did not tell them in what manner they would eat His flesh and drink His blood. Their response at this point should have been **obedience in **]faith. They had seen enough up to this point to know that Jesus was someone special and they could trust Him. Their response should have been the same as Peter (speaking for the whole group of disciples). Peter’s attitude was basically , Lord I don’t understand this, but because you say so I accept it. Jesus is addressing the crowd’s refusal to accept his clear teaching (like, in my opinion, your refusal to accept Jesus’ clear teaching). This is spiritual truth and you have to accept it in that manner, and not just in a human, carnal, earthly way.

 

[walker_p]

I left out the first part of the v. because I wanted to key on what Jesus was saying specifically about His words.

Jesus is here telling the crowd exactly what He meant by eating His flesh and that is to eat (understand) His words Jn. 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, This is confirmed by Peter in v. 68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.

He is saying sin (works of the flesh) prophets nothing. Gal. 5:18But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
19Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
But the fruits of the Spirit are manifest in His WORDS.

Sure He is. He is saying when you eat of the WORD, the bread of life You have life in you. Psalm 119:11Thy **word **have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee. Romans 623 says “For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.” We die through sin but are made alive through the **WORD **made flesh.

First of all Jesus is not talking about some blasphemous Catholic rite called the eucharist.

Well, let me spell it out for you. Here is 1Cor 2:12-14 again
1Cor 2:12Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Paul says that we (meaning brothers and sisters in Christ), have received not the Spirit of the world see Gal. 5 18-22 above, but the Spirit which is of God. Jn. 6:63b **The words I have spoken to you are spirit and life. **And we recieve this not through the wisdom of man but through the Holy Spirit.
Jn14:26But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
27Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. John also teaches this in his first epistle

1Jn.2:27But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. This is also brought out in Jeramiah 31:33But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. This is actually the definition of the new covenant. That no more are we to be taught of men, but by the Words of Jesus through the power of the Spirit.

Are you a natural man? That you cannot perceive the things of the Spirit of God? Are they folishness to you? Because you indicate that these vs. have nothing to do with Jn. 6 when clearly they elaborate on what Jesus is saying when He says "The words I have spoken to you are spirit and life."

Just out of curiosity what do you think the word “unworthily” means in this v.

Why?

I don’t care what the church fathers say.

You sound like a natural man who cannot understand the things of God. Of course you don’t care what the Church Fathers say. That is because they all disagree with you. Let us see who is more likely to know the truth: A) you, a johnny-come-lately, who comes along 20 centuries after the fact, or B) men who were the Apostles’ disciples and disciples of the Apostles’ disciples. It was their time, their culture, their language. They were personally taught by the Apostles. They were persecuted and put to death for their faith in Jesus. And yet it is you - LOL - who has the truth and not them. In other words, the Apostles failed to pass on the faith to their immediate successors. The Apostles’ immediate successors misunderstood the Apostles and got the faith all wrong. Well then, thank God you are here to restore the faith with your subjective, johnny-come-lately opinions. Receiving communion unworthily means to do so while conscious of mortal sin, and it means to do so while denying that communion is Jesus’ actual body and blood. The second part is not a problem for protestants as you do not have a valid communion.

 

[walker_p]

After reading all the messages, all the back and forth fluff. A thousand words that don’t say NOTHING! A bunch of excuses, jokes, and worthless comments about the SDA church, it’s doctrines and about people in general that just want to do God’s will; whether in the church (SDA) or not. I’ve come to the conclusion that if you won’t allow the Holy Spirit into your heart and mind, you will NEVER understand the times we are living in. You will make fun of God’s Holy Word, and call it the “mcbible”. Get your laughs in today, make fun of God’s Word!!! Make fun of people that want to follow God’s Word to the letter because they LOVE HIM! Call it legalism, call it what ever you want. Keep choosing man over God. Keep keeping Sunday as your “Holy” day of worship, because man told you to do it thousands of years ago. Keep doing what ever YOUR MIND, and YOUR HEART tell you to do!
Do your will not God’s!
All I can tell you is that time is running out on this world. Today you laugh, tommorrow many will cry! You think it’s all a big funny joke? Divine doctrine is anything but a funny joke! To be a member of the SDA church DOESN"T guarantee salvation, to be a member of any church, doesn’t guarantee salvation. If fact the only thing that guarantees our salvation is LOVING JESUS CHRIST with ALL OUR HEARTS, but it doesn’t stop there, because when you LOVE GOD, you obey his commandments, and you do HIS will, not because you have to, because your heart tells it’s the right thing to do.
So go ahead take these words and twist them around, make fun of the bible, call it the mcbible again,keep sending me worthless qoutes and ideas and personal philosophy about Sunday and legalism and tradition, and attacking Doug Bachelor, ect, ect… I welcome it, because each mockery tells a story of ignorance, and shows who you really worship. Jesus NEVER mocked, or made fun off anyone! So, who’s example are you following, is it Jesus?

PS> I’ve read thousands of words, many, many sentences, tons of STUFF, but I’m still waiting for the Bible text, in which God tells me to Worship him on SUNDAY. Please something SO SO IMPORTANT MUST HAVE A TEXT FROM THE BIBLE< WHICH CLEARLY PROVES IT TO BE TRUE! I will continue to wait patiently.

with LOVE, Ern!

I challenge you to show me a single verse in the Old Testament or the New Testament that makes the Jewish Sabbath binding on a Gentile. You can’t. I challenge you to show me a single verse in the entire abridged Bible that you use (which was given to you, in complete form, by the only church Jesus founded called Catholic) which requires me to keep Saturday holy. Again, you can’t. You are the one who is being disobedient to God. Jesus founded one Church and the SDA church is not it. You continue to keep Saturday as your holy day of worship because your church is caught between two covenants and can’t make up it’s mind. The Sabbath is a ceremonial law and it was only temporary. It is over. Sorry to break the truth to you.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Hi Richard,

I have to hand it to you - you ending actually captured not on the content but the flavor of your post: I don’t care what the church fathers say

Why should I care what man says when I have the WORD OF GOD.

You were given excellent responses - but, insult all on this list with your flippant:
First of all Jesus is not talking about some blasphemous Catholic rite called the eucharist.

The second commandment states: Ex.20:4Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
5Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
6And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

Jesus tells us in the second commandment not to take a man made thing and bow down before it and serve it. This is exactly what you do at every mass when you bow down before your bread god.

What makes your post so tragic is that you must be running around with the illusion that enlightenment only happend around 1520 - and everything that preceeded Luther & Co was just of no consequence.

Well, first of all I"m getting too old to run anywhere and I don’t believe I ever metioned 1520 or Luther I just think the CC has it wrong and you are being sucked in.

The Apostles passed the torch, as it were to what we call the Early Church Fathers. Now, you can close your eyes and deny the relevance of those who carried on Apostolic Tradition - but, just what do you think happened?

The apostles did exactly what the bible says they did. They went out and preached the gospel of Jesus Christ and Him crucified for our sins.

Rave on, with your insults of blasphmy. But, I tell you what. The next time you open your Bible that was given to you courtesy of the Catholic Church,

I’m not insulting anyone. Just stating a simple fact. The bible was given to us by God.

please pray for enlightenment from the Holy Spirit to really understand the plain words that are right in front of your eyes.

I do that every time I open a bible.

Please note, Christ compares Himself to the mana God gave to the Hebrews in the desert that they ate every day

Actually He contrasts the manna in the wilderness with himself please note.
Jn. 6: 32Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.
33For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.
34Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.
35And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
36But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
45It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
46Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
47Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
48I am that bread of life.
49Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
50This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
You will notice in v. 35 Jesus says “he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.” So if you want tot be fed of jesus you must believe. Believe what? Well its believe His words or who He says He is, Right?

• not to a scroll that they would have read and not ate! Who eats paper on a regular basis? Where else do you find in the Bible (OT or NT) where “eat” is to be understood for “understand” ? If your argument is believeable - then back up your statement from Scripture with the chapter and verse.

I don’t believe that I even suggested that we actually eat paper, but the words of Jesus.
Here are some vs. that show that eating is used for understanding.
Ezekial 2: 7And thou shalt speak my words unto them, whether they will hear, or whether they will forbear: for they are most rebellious.
8But thou, son of man, hear what I say unto thee; Be not thou rebellious like that rebellious house: open thy mouth, and eat that I give thee.
9And when I looked, behold, an hand was sent unto me; and, lo, a roll of a book was therein;
10And he spread it before me; and it was written within and without: and there was written therein lamentations, and mourning, and woe.

Ezekial 3: 1Moreover he said unto me, Son of man, eat that thou findest; eat this roll, and go speak unto the house of Israel.
2So I opened my mouth, and he caused me to eat that roll.
3And he said unto me, Son of man, cause thy belly to eat, and fill thy bowels with this roll that I give thee. Then did I eat it; and it was in my mouth as honey for sweetness.
4And he said unto me, Son of man, go, get thee unto the house of Israel, and speak with my words unto them.

Rev. 10:9And I went unto the angel, and said unto him, Give me the little book. And he said unto me, Take it, and eat it up; and it shall make thy belly bitter, but it shall be in thy mouth sweet as honey.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

The real proof is that no one ever - ever - walked away from Christ becaue he used an analogy or a metaphor. None. Do you really think it is “…a hard saying…” to eat paper, or parchment, of even auditory words? Nope! Never happened - or, accept the challenge and give me chapter and verse of where else this happened. You’re on.

What are you talking about? I never said anyone should eat paper, but that eating was a common way to express understanding of what someone says. In other words his WORDS.

So, you tell me, why do you think these Jews insulted Christ and then walked away as a group?

Well, It’s pretty clear that they misunderstood Him. They thought He was talking about cannabalism.

Here is the section you decided to evade, in context - please note the plain words of Christ in John 6:51-68

51I am the living bread that came down from heaven; whoever eats this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world."

52
The Jews quarreled among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us (his) flesh to eat?”
53
Jesus said to them, “Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.
54
Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day.
55
For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink.
56
Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him.
57
Just as the living Father sent me and I have life because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on me will have life because of me.
58
This is the bread that came down from heaven. Unlike your ancestors who ate and still died, whoever eats this bread will live forever.”
59
These things he said while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum.
60
20 Then many of his disciples who were listening said, “This saying is hard; who can accept it?”
61
Since Jesus knew that his disciples were murmuring about this, he said to them, “Does this shock you?
62
What if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before?
63
It is the spirit that gives life, while the flesh is of no avail. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and life.
64
But there are some of you who do not believe.” Jesus knew from the beginning the ones who would not believe and the one who would betray him.
65
And he said, “For this reason I have told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by my Father.”
66
As a result of this, many (of) his disciples returned to their former way of life and no longer accompanied him.
67
Jesus then said to the Twelve, “Do you also want to leave?”
68
Simon Peter answered him, "Master, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.

The key is in the vs. I have highlighted. Jesus is talking about His WORDS, but not only His words but faith in His words andwho He is. This is confirmed by Petert in v. 68

Originally Posted by Richard Kastner
I left out the first part of the v. because I wanted to key on what Jesus was saying specifically about His words.
Jesus is here telling the crowd exactly what He meant by eating His flesh and that is to eat (understand) His words Jn. 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, This is confirmed by Peter in v. 68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.

This portion of your post is just weak in both content and context

Please explain how.

(the section you had difficulty with is quoted above for your convenience).

What do you mean by this? I don’t have a difficulty with any part of the bible

I sincerely pray, don’t spurn the very words of Christ.

God bless

I believe that we will be judged by God by the light we have recieved. You have now recieved the light on Jn. 6. So my prayer would be the same for you.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Receiving communion unworthily means to do so while conscious of mortal sin,

Please explain these vs. then Matt 11:28Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
29Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
30For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.
Jn12:32And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
Jesus is calling all men unto Him espesially sinners. He wants sinners to come to Him and all men are sinners Rom. 3:23For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
To recieve communion unworthily is to recieve it in an uncareing and flippant manner.

 

[Javl]

Richard Kastner:

Whether you believe it or not, you are rejecting the Words of Jesus, and therefore rejecting Him. Sorry to say, but you are too arrogant and bordering on the blasphemous.
Your interprtation and understanding of the bible ( given by the Catholic Church ) is totaly
erroneous and false. If, as you say, you let the Holy Spirit guide you, then you would not have strayed so far from the truth. All Protestants, like you claim to be guided by the Holy Spirit. If this is so, then how come there are over 30,000 different interpretations of the Bible? The Holy Spirit is not the author of confusion and does not lead one into error. If
you truly open you mind and eyes to the truth, then the Holy Spirit will guide you to the
One True Church as established by Jesus Christ. I will pray for you.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Richard,

This is really become rather involved - but, I think it is certainly worth the effort… So, let’s try from a different approach

Well, It’s pretty clear that they misunderstood Him. They thought He was talking about cannabalism.

I think this hits the nail squarely on the head - the idea you have presented of a misunderstanding between the Jews and Christ in John 6 as the cause of the problem. I think we should look at that in greater detail.

In my opinion, there are two ways to approach this: 1.) what was actually said and 2.) what Christ actually did.

1.) Christ talks about eating (as opposed to understanding) His Flesh in seven different utterances. What is amazing is that the Jews, in their own way, repeat as a question what Jesus has just said, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” The basis for all communications is that the sender of the message is understood when the receiver of the message in some way repeats or responds to what was originally said. If there is a problem with mis-communications, it shows up immediately with statements like, “That is not what I meant”, or “That is not what I said” - in effect, cueing the receiver that he did not properly receive the intended message. But, notice - that did not happen. They are asking a rhetorical question - but, they are really not interested in an answer because it was already determined that “This is a hard saying…” Rejection, not dialogue is what we are witnessing.

2.) Christ did not say something like, “Hey, guys, you have misundertood me - let me clarify this analogy so as not to confuse anyone…” Christ repeats what He says, and tells them that they will have no life in them if they do not do as He says - and He said to eat His Flesh and drink His Blood! If anything, Christ has just raised the stakes - now, their eternal salvation is on the line - and, Christ watches as they walk away.

Honest, Richard, there can be no honest claim to the Jews misunderstanding Christ. Our Lord and Savior has made His Will quite clear to the Jews - AND - to us.

Rather then go over the rest of the post, let’s just stay with this idea of yours - this was a misunderstanding on the part of the Jews - they thought Christ was encouraging cannibalism and Christ was using a metaphor.

I have shown you how this was no misunderstanding. The ball is in your court - so, just from the words of John 6, please show how you think that Christ did not mean for us to eat His Flesh - and please, the idea of the “…Spirit giving life…” does not really fit here. Are you saying that the Flesh of Christ profits nothing?

God bless

 

[ern42]

The truth is that the 4th Commandment is part of God’s Law! So not only I’m a going to give you many versus that say exactly that, but I’m also going to include many more verses OT & NT that specifically mention the Sabbath as part of God Law and specifically his (God) holy day of rest. By the way the KJV of the Bible is one of or the most commonly used Bibles in the world, that’s where I’m getting my texts…

A- (LAW - 10 Commandments)
1- “Sin is the transgression of the law.” 1 John 3:4.
2- “The wages of sin is death.” Romans 6:23.
3- “He shall destroy the sinners.” Isaiah 13:9.
4- “Whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.” James 2:10.
5- “It is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.” Luke 16:17
6- “My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips.” Psalms 89:34
7- “All his commandments are sure. They stand fast for ever and ever.” Psalms 111:7, 8.
8- “Think not that I am come to destroy the law. … I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. … Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.” Matthew 5:17, 18.
9- “By the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight.” Romans 3:20.
10- “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.” Ephesians 2:8, 9.

B- (Sabbath as part of the 10 Commandments) (OT & NT)
Ask yourself? Are the Ten Commandments of God reaffirmed in the New Testament?

Yes, and very clearly so. Look the following over very carefully.

THE LAW OF GOD IN THE NEW TESTAMENT THE LAW OF GOD IN THE OLD TESTAMENT
NT1. “Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.” Matthew 4:10. OT1. “Thou shalt have no other gods before me.” Exodus 20:3.
NT2. “Little children, keep yourselves from idols.” 1 John 5:21.
NT2 “Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man’s device.” Acts 17:29. OT2. “Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.” Exodus 20:4-6.
NT3. “That the name of God and his doctrine be not blasphemed.” 1 Timothy 6:1. 3.
OT"Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain; for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain." Exodus 20:7.
NT4. “For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.” “There remaineth therefore a rest “keeping of a sabbath,” margin] to the people of God. For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.” Hebrews 4:4, 9, 10.
OT4. “Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.” Exodus 20:8-11.
NT5. “Honour thy father and thy mother.” Matthew 19:19.
OT5. “Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee.” Exodus 20:12.
NT6. “Thou shalt not kill.” Romans 13:9.
OT6. “Thou shalt not kill.” Exodus 20:13.
NT7. “Thou shalt not commit adultery.” Matthew 19:18.
OT7. “Thou shalt not commit adultery.” Exodus 20:14.
NT8. “Thou shalt not steal.” Romans 13:9.
OT8. “Thou shalt not steal.” Exodus 20:15.
NT9. “Thou shalt not bear false witness.” Romans 13:9.
OT9. “Thou shalt not bear false winess against thy neighbour.” Exodus 20:16.
NT10. “Thou shalt not covet.” Romans 7:7.
OT10. “Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ***, nor any thing that is thy neighbour’s.” Exodus 20:17.

C - (Let me explain the difference for you, between “Jews” laws and the Law of God)

Moses’ law was the temporary, ceremonial law of the Old Testament. It regulated the priesthood, sacrifices, rituals, meat and drink offerings, etc., all of which foreshadowed the cross. This law was added “till the seed should come,” and that seed was Christ (Galatians 3:16, 19). The ritual and ceremony of Moses’ law pointed forward to Christ’s sacrifice. When He died, this law came to an end, but the Ten Commandments (God’s law) “stand fast for ever and ever.” Psalms 111:8. That there are two laws is made crystal clear in Daniel 9:10, 11.

God’s law has existed at least as long as sin has existed. The Bible says, “Where no law is, there is no transgression [or sin].” Romans 4:15. So God’s Ten Commandment law existed from the beginning. Men broke that law (sinned–1 John 3:4). Because of sin (or breaking God’s law), Moses’ law was given (or “added”–Galatians 3:16, 19) till Christ should come and die. Two separate laws are involved: God’s law and Moses’ law.

D- (MOSES’ LAW “Jewish Laws [JL]” & GOD’S LAW [GL])

JL - Called “the law of Moses” (Luke 2:22).
GL - Called “the law of the Lord” (Isaiah 5:24).
JL - Called “law … contained in ordinances” (Ephesians 2:15).
GL - Called “the royal law” (James 2:8).
JL - Written by Moses in a book (2 Chronicles 35:12).
GL - Written by God on stone (Exodus 31:18; 32:16).
JL - Placed in the side of the ark (Deuteronomy 31:26).
GL - Placed inside the ark (Exodus 40:20).
JL - Ended at the cross (Ephesians 2:15).
GL - Will stand forever (Luke 16:17).
JL - Added because of sin (Galatians 3:19).
GL - Points out sin (Romans 7:7; 3:20).
JL - Contrary to us, against us (Colossians 2:14).
GL - Not grievous (1 John 5:3).
JL - Judges no one (Colossians 2:14-16).
GL - Judges all people (James 2:10-12).
JL - Carnal (Hebrews 7:16).
GL- Spiritual (Romans 7:14).
JL - Made nothing perfect (Hebrews 7:19).
GL- Perfect (Psalms 19:7).

So as you can see and read, your challange has been met!

By the way… Please feel free to give me ONE verse in the Bible that tells me to keep Sunday instead of the established Sabbath which is holy to God. I will continue to wait!!!

Love Ern!

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Hi, Richard,

This is really become rather involved - but, I think it is certainly worth the effort… So, let’s try from a different approach

I think this hits the nail squarely on the head - the idea you have presented of a misunderstanding between the Jews and Christ in John 6 as the cause of the problem. I think we should look at that in greater detail.

In my opinion, there are two ways to approach this: 1.) what was actually said and 2.) what Christ actually did.

1.) Christ talks about eating (as opposed to understanding) His Flesh in seven different utterances. What is amazing is that the Jews, in their own way, repeat as a question what Jesus has just said, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” The basis for all communications is that the sender of the message is understood when the receiver of the message in some way repeats or responds to what was originally said. If there is a problem with mis-communications, it shows up immediately with statements like, “That is not what I meant”, or “That is not what I said” - in effect, cueing the receiver that he did not properly receive the intended message. But, notice - that did not happen. They are asking a rhetorical question - but, they are really not interested in an answer because it was already determined that “This is a hard saying…” Rejection, not dialogue is what we are witnessing.

2.) Christ did not say something like, “Hey, guys, you have misundertood me - let me clarify this analogy so as not to confuse anyone…” Christ repeats what He says, and tells them that they will have no life in them if they do not do as He says - and He said to eat His Flesh and drink His Blood! If anything, Christ has just raised the stakes - now, their eternal salvation is on the line - and, Christ watches as they walk away.

Honest, Richard, there can be no honest claim to the Jews misunderstanding Christ. Our Lord and Savior has made His Will quite clear to the Jews - AND - to us.

Rather then go over the rest of the post, let’s just stay with this idea of yours - this was a misunderstanding on the part of the Jews - they thought Christ was encouraging cannibalism and Christ was using a metaphor.

I have shown you how this was no misunderstanding.

You have not shown that there was no misunderstanding only that Jesus uses the same metaphore over and over again. The twelve knew what He was talking about as revealed in Peter’s statement in v.68 “Simon Peter answered him, Master, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.”

The ball is in your court - so, just from the words of John 6

Ya, this is a typical tactic of you guys, to try and limit the use of God’s word, sorry but I use it all. Because the bible interprets itself. One part explains another.

please show how you think that Christ did not mean for us to eat His Flesh

Ok, let’s start at v. 26 and on26Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled.
27Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.
28Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
30They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?

The people Jesus is talking to here are those that followed Him across the sea of Galilee to the other side. Not because they had any real interest in what He was saying, but because they wanted a free meal. Then in v. 27 Jesus tells them not to labor for temporary food, (meat in the bible is used to talk about any food.) but to strive for the food that leads to everlasting life. In v. 28 they seem to understand that Jesus is not talking about actual food that you eat when they ask “What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?” Then Jesus gives them the answer which is the point of the whole chapter “This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.” Are you listening to what Jesus is saying here. The work of the Father is that WE BELIEVE IN JESUS Jn 3:16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. Are you getting the idea her tqualey. The whole point that Jesus is trying to make in chapter 6 of John is that we BELIEVE IN HIM.

and please, the idea of the “…Spirit giving life…” does not really fit here. Are you saying that the Flesh of Christ profits nothing?

God bless

So, you’re saying what here? That Jesus didn’t really mean what He said, when He said: “It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.” The flesh He is talking about here is not His flesh, but the flesh of the world (sin). I thought I went over this. Didn’t you read it or don’t you agree with it or what? Why would you say “the idea of the “…Spirit giving life…” does not really fit here”. I’m curious why do you think that the idea of the Spirit giving life does not fit when Jesus states “the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.”

 

[happilycatholic]

I can say how you receive grace because it tells me how it is dipensed in the Word of God.

Again, no you may not. You can tell me what you think the Scriptures say, but since this can only ever be your opinion or whatever influence you’ve had regarding the subject, it will be just that, an opinion.

You have an errant opinion based on a flawed interpretation of Scripture. First of all, it is almost impossible to prove an entire doctrine (like faith alone) on one single verse of Scripture. You cannot take one single verse, pluck it out and prove a doctrine by it.

Eph. 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Richard Kastner:

Whether you believe it or not, you are rejecting the Words of Jesus, and therefore rejecting Him. Sorry to say, but you are too arrogant and bordering on the blasphemous.
Your interprtation and understanding of the bible ( given by the Catholic Church ) is totaly
erroneous and false. If, as you say, you let the Holy Spirit guide you, then you would not have strayed so far from the truth. All Protestants, like you claim to be guided by the Holy Spirit. If this is so, then how come there are over 30,000 different interpretations of the Bible? The Holy Spirit is not the author of confusion and does not lead one into error. If
you truly open you mind and eyes to the truth, then the Holy Spirit will guide you to the
One True Church as established by Jesus Christ. I will pray for you.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

Do you have some point that you would like to discuss or are you here just to call names and just be generally annoying. Because if this is your intention. Go away.

 

[happilycatholic]

By the way… Please feel free to give me ONE verse in the Bible that tells me to keep Sunday instead of the established Sabbath which is holy to God. I will continue to wait!!!

Love Ern

 

[happilycatholic]

The people Jesus is talking to here are those that followed Him across the sea of Galilee to the other side. Not because they had any real interest in what He was saying, but because they wanted a free meal. Then in v. 27 Jesus tells them not to labor for temporary food, (meat in the bible is used to talk about any food.) but to strive for the food that leads to everlasting life. In v. 28 they seem to understand that Jesus is not talking about actual food that you eat when they ask “What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?” Then Jesus gives them the answer which is the point of the whole chapter “This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.” Are you listening to what Jesus is saying here. The work of the Father is that WE BELIEVE IN JESUS

No, it is you that is not “getting” the point Jesus is making. It is you that keeps trying to place Christ in the Sabbath. Christ has no part in the Sabbath. At the inception of the Sabbath, we did not *know *Christ and did not have the benefit of His Redeeming power. We knew Him as the Word.

Yes, you have it in part, but you are neglecting the fact that Jesus is attempting to bring them into a whole new concept called* salvation.* Not only that, but He is trying to do that in fulfillment of the Old Covenant that God made with them.

Jesus is telling them that HE is the WAY. Not the Law, not the Sabbath, but HE HIMSELF. He is telling them not to rely on things of this world (not even miracles) for salvation. Now what could He possibly be speaking of? The Sabbath. He is preparing them to give it up and to follow a New Covenant for salvation. He knows that will be hard. He also knows He can’t go around saying, now when I die, stop celebrating the Sabbath and start celebrating the Lord’s Day. They probably celebrated both for a long time to come. But even they knew the difference. Even they knew they were giving God the Creator the honor for creation and rest on the Sabbath and they were celebrating Christ’s resurrection on the Lord’s Day.

Ern, it is you and other SDA’s who are trying to exist between the two Covenants, Old and New. If it weren’t for Joesph Bates and the Whites, you’d still be Sunday Church going Adventists.

So actually, you worship on Saturday because Joseph Bates and Thomas Preble decided it was the right thing to be doing (in 1845 after reading a tract by Thomas Preble, also a Millerite). They even called Bates the “Apostle of the Sabbath”. Then Ms. White (whom your church considers a prophet) has a vision and that pretty much sewed it up. The Sabbath it is.

I think I would have to rethink who I consider an Apostle and/or Prophets.

 

[greggy53]

C - (Let me explain the difference for you, between “Jews” laws and the Law of God)

Moses’ law was the temporary, ceremonial law of the Old Testament. !

Really? Where does it say that in your Bible?

By the way… Please feel free to give me ONE verse in the Bible that tells me to keep Sunday instead of the established Sabbath which is holy to God. I will continue to wait!!!
!

Threre is plenty of evidence in the NT that Sunday was the day the Church decided to worship our Lord.Your cult refuses to recognize what christians have been practicing for 2000 years.

 

[ern42]

Hey Paul,
Be very careful before casting any stones… americancatholic.org/News/ClergySexAbuse

Poor little boys and teenagers have suffered tremendously!!! Wouldn’t you agree?

 

[happilycatholic]

Hey Paul,
Be very careful before casting any stones… americancatholic.org/News/ClergySexAbuse

Poor little boys and teenagers have suffered tremendously!!! Wouldn’t you agree?

And you result to casting stones as well? What did this accomplish?

 

[ern42]

I continue to state…
Give me a Bible verse in which God tells me he has officially changed Sabbath to Sunday! You can’t! Let me make it easy for you, you will NEVER find a Bible text that says that GOD has changed his holy Sabbath (4th commandment) to Sunday! NEVER!!!

All you do is talk talk and talk some more about man made philosophy yet I state facts using the Word of God, which you clearly DO NOT understand or just NO NOT ACCEPT!

If you are so sure of your faith, and doctrines, and you know SUNDAY is the official day of rest, that the “Apostals” changed. Once and for all, SHUT ME UP!!! I challange you or anyone to find the text were it states: SUNDAY IS NOW THE NEW DAY OF REST INSTEAD OF SABBATH!!!
God doesn’t change, his LAW (including the 4th commandment) doesn’t change. You change, the POPE changes, man changes, BUT GOD doesn’t change, he is the same GOD of Genesis as he is the same GOD of Revelation. You are so confused that you do not see the clearity of God’s message infront of you. It’s really sad that you choose to follow man made traditions versus GOD’s eternal law!

I was challenged and I answered, you’ve been challenged and do not answer, all you do is find excused and add more and more words, but still NOTHING from the Bible that specifically tell me that the 4th commandment has been officially changed by God to a new day of worship… Sunday!!!

Still waiting???

 

[Marsha_Adams]

Here is a question that maybe some of you folks can help me with:

Why is it that Seventh Day Adventists on this forum almost never list “Seventh Day Adventist” or “SDA” under Religion on their profiles? Instead they tend to either leave it blank, or put “Christian” or “Protestant” in that spot. Are they hiding something? Or just ashamend?

It is the same way with their evangelistic meetings and a lot of their literature. Is it a secret or what?