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Robert_Burns
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Once again , another improperly posed question which presupposes that every Bishop “agrees” that it has been done and ssumes that any that dont are not in “communion” with him. Thats nonsense.
Several questions regarding the events at Fatima, Portugal in 1917...
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Robert_Burns
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Well unles you agree with the Catholic Dogma of Papal Infallibility any discussion would be fruitless. Since you are Orthodox - you disagree. So what type of discussion along these lines is possible? No common ground exists.
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Robert_Burns
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Like Pope Worship for example.
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beehumble
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The (spiritual) errors Our Lady was speaking of at Fatima are very simple. Communism, modernism, humanism, masonry, the French Revolution et al. are all of the same ilk - they all have the same basic error - that men working in harmony can solve all of humanity’s problems. Ergo, God is not needed or is redundant or is a left-over superstition; ergo, belief in a God interferes with man’s destiny, inhibits men from working hard towards the solutions because he just waits around for God to fix it, etc.
These errors believe man can perfect humanity all by himself, without any need for a God.
I am not sure but I don’t think they believe in eternity achieved by intellectual power, or believe in eternity at all. They believe in the ability to achieve perfection - i.e. a perfect world, through the capabilities of man alone, without God. All of these have failed and will always fail. But since they believe that belief in a God by the masses is a key obstacle that hinders their quest for perfection via man, they always try to force atheism upon the masses. This is their common theme, and why they are condemned by the Church. (The French Revolution was a brutal time when masonry over-turned the Catholic monarchy and brought about havoc and death and destruction to the Church in France.)
In our time, these modernistic, atheistic peoples have stormed the halls of government and are doing all they can to remove God from the public square by changing or adding laws. Eventually, they will try to remove God from our homes. Russia did it by force of arms; now it is being done much more subtly, by slowly, inexorably altering our laws.
Russian communism is dead; but her errors have indeed spread to the Christian West.
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Shin
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Try reading Rerum Novarum, where it covers the errors of Socialism. Goes into some of it. And too, Divini Redemptoris.
'To remedy these wrongs the socialists, working on the poor man’s envy of the rich, are striving to do away with private property, and contend that individual possessions should become the common property of all, to be administered by the State or by municipal bodies… . the remedy they propose is manifestly against justice. For, every man has by nature the right to possess property as his own. . . The fact that God has given the earth for the use and enjoyment of the whole human race can in no way be a bar to the owning of private property. . . The contention, then, that the civil government should at its option intrude into and exercise intimate control over the family and the household is a great and pernicious error. . . Paternal authority can be neither abolished nor absorbed by the State; for it has the same source as human life itself. . . . The great mistake made in regard to the matter now under consideration is to take up with the notion that class is naturally hostile to class, and that the wealthy and the working men are intended by nature to live in mutual conflict. So irrational and so false is this view that the direct contrary is the truth. . . ’
Etc.
‘A third powerful factor in the diffusion of Communism is the conspiracy of silence on the part of a large section of the non-Catholic press of the world. We say conspiracy, because it is impossible otherwise to explain how a press usually so eager to exploit even the little daily incidents of life has been able to remain silent for so long about the horrors perpetrated in Russia, in Mexico and even in a great part of Spain; and that it should have relatively so little to say concerning a world organization as vast as Russian Communism. This silence is due in part to shortsighted political policy, and is favored by various occult forces which for a long time have been working for the overthrow of the Christian Social Order.’
Also some key audio sermons:
The Errors of Russia: How They Affect Family Life
The Errors of Russia: Their Plan and the Plan of Heaven
The Errors of Russia: the Plan of Heaven – Model the Holy Family
As one can see these errors still are wrecking widespread havoc, and even advancing and exerting greater control.
These are **very **good sermons **very **worth listening to.
'To remedy these wrongs the socialists, working on the poor man’s envy of the rich, are striving to do away with private property, and contend that individual possessions should become the common property of all, to be administered by the State or by municipal bodies… . the remedy they propose is manifestly against justice. For, every man has by nature the right to possess property as his own. . . The fact that God has given the earth for the use and enjoyment of the whole human race can in no way be a bar to the owning of private property. . . The contention, then, that the civil government should at its option intrude into and exercise intimate control over the family and the household is a great and pernicious error. . . Paternal authority can be neither abolished nor absorbed by the State; for it has the same source as human life itself. . . . The great mistake made in regard to the matter now under consideration is to take up with the notion that class is naturally hostile to class, and that the wealthy and the working men are intended by nature to live in mutual conflict. So irrational and so false is this view that the direct contrary is the truth. . . ’
Etc.
‘A third powerful factor in the diffusion of Communism is the conspiracy of silence on the part of a large section of the non-Catholic press of the world. We say conspiracy, because it is impossible otherwise to explain how a press usually so eager to exploit even the little daily incidents of life has been able to remain silent for so long about the horrors perpetrated in Russia, in Mexico and even in a great part of Spain; and that it should have relatively so little to say concerning a world organization as vast as Russian Communism. This silence is due in part to shortsighted political policy, and is favored by various occult forces which for a long time have been working for the overthrow of the Christian Social Order.’
Also some key audio sermons:
The Errors of Russia: How They Affect Family Life
The Errors of Russia: Their Plan and the Plan of Heaven
The Errors of Russia: the Plan of Heaven – Model the Holy Family
As one can see these errors still are wrecking widespread havoc, and even advancing and exerting greater control.
These are **very **good sermons **very **worth listening to.
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Sir_Knight
Guest
Like believing in the promises of Christ and not implying that Jesus lied to us.
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JMJ_coder
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I still don’t know why you would expect an ex cathedra in this situation?
Actions aren’t fodder for such a statement. Would you expect the Pope to infallibly declare that he ate breakfast? or said a Mass? or prayed for a particular intention?Do you know what else isn’t fodder for an ex cathedra statement – private revelations. Fatima truly is non-binding on the conscience of Catholics. My question is why would you believe this non-binding revelation (seeing how you disbelieve the Consecration since it didn’t come stamped with an ex cathedra statement)?
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JMJ_coder
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You are the one claiming they haven’t done so. The Vatican hasn’t remained silent on this issue – they have stated that the Consecration has been fulfilled. This isn’t even a theological dispute where one could weigh the arguments – it is the Pope said he did something, you say he didn’t. This becomes a ‘he said, he said’, and my question remains – how are you more credible than the Pope?
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JMJ_coder
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Do you have any evidence of a Bishop in communion with Rome who disagrees that the Consecration happened?
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Sir_Knight
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Nor did any Pope use his POWER as Pope to bind that that vision was to be believed.
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simple_soul
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And I believe the root error of all these errors would be pride.
I have heard of some beliefs out there that believe that they themselves ascend to their higher being. I am not sure on all the details of this believe. There is also my neighbor who was telling me how one chooses not only when to be born but when to be reborn after they die so that they can continue developing intellectually. Again I am not sure on the details of this belief either. Then I have what confused me the most about Ayn Rand’s Philosophy. She said in an interview that " it is not me that dies, but the world that dies around me." Even she had some kind of an “idea” of an after life.
*So what would be a way to destroy the belief in God? Take the belief in the ability to achieve perfection through capabilities of man alone and apply it to Everlasting Life. Convince them that they do not need God for an after life in eternity. Convince them that they can have an after life in eternal bliss but that it is one that they created for themselves through their achievements. *
I believe am begining to understand why
*I believe it has gone even deeper than that. I believe it has subtly slid into our hearts and we are not even aware of how deeply it is embedded in them. Any way I do not know if any of what I am saying makes much sense. I am just sort of “shooting from the hip” about all this and just trying to wrap my brain around it. But from everything I have read so far it does really seem to be that it all boils down to pride.
Pride truly is the root of all evil.
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LilyM
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Consecrate your town TO Russia? Well, one can’t consecrate a town TO a country - I’m surprised your priest didn’t point that out to you, although I’m not surprised it gave him a chuckle.
Now if Our Lady asked for Russia and Russia only to be consecrated, sad to say but true, the consecration of your town wouldn’t mean diddly squat in terms of fulfilling her request. Your town - in case it needs pointing out - isn’t Russia.
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LilyM
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Not at all. Did Our Lady promise that her Immaculate Heart would triumph IMMEDIATELY upon the request being fulfilled? Of course not, nothing like. Yes, it’s been 25 years since the consecration of JP2 which seems a long time.
But look at how many thousands of years separate the Fall of Adam and Eve from the coming of Christ which was prophesied to them in Eden. And then consider the 2,000 years during which we have waited for the fulfillment of His promise to come again. 25 years is but a blink of the eye on God’s timescale.
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ORD_NASILA
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TThank you Robert for your post.However, you assume incorrectly that I am “Orthodox”, that is unless your meaning of Orthodox is the same as Fundamentalist. I ask questions purely for the sake of Oecumenism, for without some knowledge of other person’s viewpoint discussion only adds to confusion. My question regarding Russian and Greek Orthodox Churches was to find out whether those Churches **also ** have Dogma that states that there is no salvation for anyone except through their particular Church. So then, according to Eph.2:8, " For by grace are you saved through faith, and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God…".The question needs to be asked then,
“…through faith…”? In what, or in whom is this faith to be placed? The answer is, in Jesus Christ, for, " Neither is there salvation in any other; For there is none other name under Heaven given among men whereby we must be saved." ( Acts 4:12 ) And in Rom. 8:38 & 39 we read, " For I am persuaded, that neither life, nor angels, nor principalities…(Etc), shall be able to seperate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."
Once again, please NOT take offence at this post, it just different point of view. Regard, O.N.
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ORD_NASILA
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Robert, you should publish that statement throughout Christendom, for I believe most strongly, that if more Catholics thought like you in regard to your Holy Father’s verbal utterences, then the aims of Oecumenism would soon be a fait accompli. Regard, O.N.
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ORD_NASILA
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Please help me with this “simple soul.” I have looked at many Scriptures regarding “Repentance” and in none of them can I find any that have the word,“Penance” associated with the word “Repent”. Even our Lord in Luke 13:3, does not mention the word “Penance”, " I tell you Nay; but except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish." Doesn’t Penance imply “Works”? Regard, O.N.
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Sir_Knight
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We see in 2 Sam. 12:14 that even though the sin is forgiven, there is punishment due for the forgiven sin. David is forgiven but his child was still taken (the consequence of his sin). We either atone for our sin in this life or in the next. Num. 5:7 shows the historical practice of confessing sins AND making restitution.
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ORD_NASILA
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Thank you Sir Knight for your very prompt reply to my post. But am I wrong in saying that in Old Testament days the people were under Law, but we are under Grace. They had the sacrificial system in which animals were offered as propitiation for their sins. Under Grace, the Perfect Sacrifice is propitiation for our sins, and reconciles us to the Father. Rom.5:9-11 tells us, " Much more then, being now justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. (10) For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of His Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. (11) And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement." In fact the whole chapter reinforces the theme that after repentence there is nothing we can do to make amends to God. In fact, I believe that trying to do things (penance) to make amends is actually inferring that our Lords sacrifice was insufficient to reconcile the sinner to God. Regard, O.N.
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simple_soul
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*Dear Ord Nasila,
I believe it does and please bear with me while I attempt at trying to explain.
They way I see it Jesus does tell us to repent. He also tells us that “No man is worthy of me who does not take up his cross and follow in my footsteps.” Mt 10:38 and “If anyone wishes to be a follower of mine, he must leave self behind; he must take up his cross and come with me.” Mt 16:24.
I believe repent means to turn around. Meaning to turn our back on sin. In order to do this I believe it will involve a lot of work and since Jesus set an example for us not only on how to change our life of sin but also how to make atonement for the sins of the world, our sins, then we need to walk in His footsteps and do the same. I believe Jesus’ sacrifice is sufficient, we just need to be willing partakers of it.
When we do penance for sins I believe it has a two fold benefit. First, it can help us focus on God and second, by it helping us focus on God, we then begin to think more about God and His Will and it can help us discipline our sinful nature to conform to His Will. And yes I do believe it primarily involves works. (If in works you are referring to acts of love, mercy, charity, forgiveness, ect…) We need to be actively changing our actions from being sinful in their nature and start making our actions conform to how God wants our actions to be. I believe Jesus also gave us an example of how to not only pray for ourselves but for others as well.
I do hope and pray this makes some sense. If it does not I can ask some one I know to explain this better.
God bless,*
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Shin
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Here is the Douay Bible which has penance frequently mentioned, where modern translations prefer ‘repentance’. The Douay is the most Catholic Bible we have in these times.
Part of Fatima is the revelation of an angel bearing a sword, crying out, “Penance, penance, penance!”
The key part of penance in Christianity can easily be witnessed in Christian history… even or especially in the earliest Christian history, where the penances that were common then are now viewed as extreme – but these were the penances of the Apostolic church… penances of years for grave sins…
The penance due a sin is generally consistent… even when not explicitly commanded, in Heaven there are scales. And it would not be just if we did not do some part of it, along with Christ.
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