And those reasons were basically of the kind “this is what I expected as a result and it hasn’t happened” to which was presented in reply the exact same kind of argument which is used by some Jews to deny that Christ is the Messiah. Therefore, those arguments were not compelling.
For example, there was no presentation of statements from Bishops in communion with the Holy Father who said the Consecration didn’t happen. There was not presentation of a statement from Sister Lucia that it didn’t happen – only crackpot theories of a fake Lucia and made up interviews. etc.
Hope I wasn’t too unclear in the last response on justice btw, partial agree, partial disagree there btw. Had to break off for dinner.
Thank you and "bon apertit!’ Nourishment for the body, nearly as important as nourishment fot the soul. In regard to story of Nineveh, it intrest to note that (apparently) God did not punish Jonah for the sin of pride, - I believe that he did not want the people of Nineveh to repent, am I right? Regard, O.N.
I love that story.
Simple soul, fellow traveller in Christ, you have no need to apologise for your perceived lack of knowledge. On the contrary your Church has reason to be justly proud of your efforts in defence of your faith. Regard,O.N.
Stop right there. Since the consecration is not a matter of faith, the Pope is under no obligation to “obey” or “submit” or “comply” as you have been calling for him to do.
What a thorough definition of your Catholic “PENANCE”. Since I can find nothing in your post with which I disagree, it becomes obvious to me that I am practicing penance as well, but not calling it that same name. If only all of the World’s differences could be resolved as easily. Regard, O.N.Hi everyone,
A dear friend invited me to this thread to help out on the subject of penance. I believe that Victorious has posted the most relevant citation of the New Testament. If you look at what Paul writes, at first glance it sounds like heresy. One can ask, how can anything be lacking in the cross? The truth of the matter is that nothing is lacking in Christ’s sacrifice. What is lacking is on our part.
Christ has graciously and freely given us the possibility for redemption. Thus we say that he is Savior and has redeemed us and it is true. But that being said, it does not mean that Christ takes away our responsibility. What Christ does is to open the possibility of salvation to us, which had been closed by Original Sin. That being done, it is up to us to work out our salvation. There are several places in the letters that this is mentioned. Working out our salvation means that we have to atone for our sins. We have to take responsibility for what we do and make it right. Christ has earned for us the necessary grace to do this. It’s up to us to use that grace or let it go to waste. In other words, just because we have been redeemed by Christ does not meant that we don’t have to do anything to get to heaven. Yes we do. We have to live holy lives. This means turning away from sin.
This is the true meaning of the word penance. It is a turning away from sin. For some of us it’s going to require more effort than for others. For some of us the sins are going to be greater than they are for others. Christ has earned salvation for us. But he has not changed who we are. Only we can do that. Christ’s saving work does not interfere with human freedom. If we choose to live sinful lives, that choice is not undone by the cross. The best example is the two thieves on either side of Jesus. Both were redeemed by the cross, yet only one was promised eternal salvation, the one who turned away from his sin. To the other, Christ was silent.
As far as penitential acts, when I teach theology I always call these ascetical practices, rather than penitential acts, because they make more sense in that language. If man is to be holy as Christ made it possible for us to be, then man must detach from everything that is not God and everything that interferes between him and God. This requires discipline. This is not an easy thing to do. This discipline is called asceticism. It means that we have to make certain sacrifices, spend time in prayer, change certain things about ourselves, right the wrongs that we have done whenever possible, train ourselves to stay away from sin and everything that can lead us to sin. I believe that St. Paul says it very well when he speaks about running the race. He too had been saved by Christ. Yet, he speaks about his life as a race. In other words, he had to work hard at becoming the Paul that we all know and venerate. Christ knocked him off his horse and knocked some sense into him in the process. But it was up to Paul to change. This was hard work, just as hard as the work that a runner puts into a race. This work is what we call penance or asceticism.
When you go to confession and the priest tells you to say three Our Fathers for your penance, that’s the beginning of the work toward change. All conversion begins with prayer. Alone we can do nothing. But no one ever assumes that three Our Fathers are going to do it. Three Our Fathers are the beginning. We begin with prayer for the grace to change, then we do what we have to do. That’s the work of which we speak and of which James speaks in his letter when he says, “Show me your faith and I’ll show you my works.” He’s talking about show you me that you believe that salvation has been given to you and I’ll show you what I have done and still do to take advantage of what has been offered to me by Christ and that which has been purchased at a great price, the blood of Christ. Christ makes salvation possible. Now, like James and Paul, we have to do the work to achieve what has been freely given to us, not because we deserve it, but because God loves us.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
What makes you think Zacchaeus was not under grace? Christ - the fulfillment of the Law - had come to earth, had He not? The Kingdom was at hand, was it not?
Thank you LilyM, I stand corrected. Regard, O.N.What makes you think Zacchaeus was not under grace? Christ - the fulfillment of the Law - had come to earth, had He not? The Kingdom was at hand, was it not?
He had already broken the Mosaic law on countless occasions by touching lepers, dead bodies, bleeding women etc etc - so how was the Law still in effect?
Go to www.americanneedsfatima.com website. I am sure you would be able to contact someone there who could give you some answers, or where to find them.
Sad to say, but the Miracle of Fatima has been downgraded by many catholics as fable. You will have to dig for information.C’mon, CAF. I expected to be astounded with your insight and knowledge on this matter.
I think I may have found an answer to my second question from Father de Marchi’s book:
ewtn.com/library/MARY/TSFATIMA.htm
This is somewhat discouraging. I’ll have to do more research, but I had previously thought that Saint Lucia and the two other children discussed the first two messages freely and openly with those who were curious. Of course, this hardly diminishes the evidence we do have for the veracity of the miraculous events at Fatima, but it is somewhat discouraging nonetheless.
God bless. Indeed, as you say, if all our differences could be settled so easily!
You are very kind to say this. I am just very thankful Br. JR was so able to explain it. From your further questions and after reading Br. JR’s explanation I can clearly see I have a lot to learn. Now I just need to try to digest what he said so that I know it more clearly. Then maybe the next time I get asked the question I can do better at explaining.
I’m sorry LilyM, in this my second post in response to your post, I must explain that I very tired at the time of writing and mistakedly thought you were talking about Zechariah. This of course would have been a total error anyway seeing that he prophesied both advents of Christ, and re-states the theme of God’s promise to Abraham regarding the treatment of the Jews by the Gentile powers. Please forgive my lapse in concentration. Regard, O.N.What makes you think Zacchaeus was not under grace? Christ - the fulfillment of the Law - had come to earth, had He not? The Kingdom was at hand, was it not?
He had already broken the Mosaic law on countless occasions by touching lepers, dead bodies, bleeding women etc etc - so how was the Law still in effect?
If I may politely add something here, it may help. The requests that the Blessed Mother made at Fatima have never been affirmed by the Church as formal teachings. They are worthy of belief.
ORD ask: Is not laying on of hands just outward and visible sign the same as Baptism ?
