Several questions regarding the events at Fatima, Portugal in 1917...

[Victorious]

Well it just may be that the second coming may come before the conversion of Russia as well if the Consecration has not been done - a plausible scenario as well. I would love to be wrong about this , really I would - but what I see is the world coming closer to war in a nuclear age - I see Abortion with 40 million Babies ripped from their mothers wombs and murdered in cold blood , I see Islamic militancy , nuclear proliferation and the two may be months away from combining in Iran - I see Homosexuals “marrying” and showing pride in their abomination in public , I see the Ten commandments being thrown out of our courthouses , Atheists openly question the existance of GOD - a denial of the Truths of Scripture , all the while we think GOD will continue to shed his grace on us? I dont see and Age of the Advance of Catholicism occuring or world peace…

Recall that the really important part of Our Lady’s message was that we need to repent and convert, which we clearly are not doing, and upon which the promised blessings were conditioned. All of this that you cite just goes to show some of the behavior we are engaged in that is probably holding up the fulfillment of the promise. Besides which, there is a danger of expecting too much. Our Lady never promised that the consecration of Russia would eradicate all evils from the earth. That will not happen this side of the Last Day.

 

[Robert_Burns]

Recall that the really important part of Our Lady’s message was that we need to repent and convert, which we clearly are not doing, and upon which the promised blessings were conditioned. All of this that you cite just goes to show some of the behavior we are engaged in that is probably holding up the fulfillment of the promise. Besides which, there is a danger of expecting too much. Our Lady never promised that the consecration of Russia would eradicate all evils from the earth. That will not happen this side of the Last Day.

Yes , like the Daily Rosary and the Five First Saturdays for Reparation. Hey look - I hope you are right and I am wrong about this. I see a decline of Marriage - young people moving in with each other or having children out of wedlock - the TV and Internet spreading its filth to our young and the most troubling thing is the lack of conscience that these young people think there is nothing wrong with what they do how they dress , even in church , I see the moral fibre of our country coming apart - not improving. I hope I am wrong.

 

[Victorious]

I see the moral fibre of our country coming apart - not improving.

It is coming apart. But that’s not because Russia hasn’t been consecrated to the Immaculate Heart. It’s because we’re not straightening up.

 

[ORD_NASILA]

The consecrated bread and wine are not symbols.

I know, but you should add, “from a Catholic point of view”. I speak from non-Catholic viewpoint, but at same time not disrespecting Catholic point of view. Please extend to me the same courtesy.

 

[JMJ_coder]

This reminds me of how some Jews rejected Jesus as the Messiah because He did not fulfill their expectations. They pointed to the Old Testament prophecies and said, wait! the Messiah is supposed to be a great warrior who will free us from our earthly enemies and lead us to rule the world in peace. Even today many Jews will try to convince Christians that Jesus cannot be the Messiah because the world is such a mess. The lion has not laid down with the lamb and swords have not been turned into ploughshares, so obviously the Messiah could not have come yet.

 

[beehumble]

Because the Pope and the Bishops and the priests of the Catholic church do not obey the Holy Mother of God regarding Fatima, the world will continue to suffer. Since 1960, the Catholic church and the world have been blown off course because the third secret was not revealed. The way Our Lady wanted Sister Lucy to do. And now, all the priests and Bishops act like the don’t know what is going on. When they are standing before God Almighty to recieve their judgement, what are they going to say when Jesus asks them why they didn’t obey His Mother, Queen of Heaven and earth?

First, the Act of Consecration has been made.

Second, Sr. Lucia said if it was done late in the century (several Popes tried but did not follow the form as given) it was all our faults. People were supposed to do certain things too.

Have you made the Five First Saturdays devotion, as asked? Do you pray the rosary daily? Have you consecrated yourself to the Immaculate Heart of Blessed Mary?

I am asking because you are accusing others of failing in their responsibilities, so then one can rightly ask you if you have done yours. We are all in this, but like I said, it has been enacted already.

 

[beehumble]

I was born in the 50’s so I probably know a little about the cold war. The biggest problem i have with those who say the Consecration was done is the fact that the promises Our Lady made havent been kept. So the paradox remains. A - its was done and Our Lady didnt keep her promises ( I dont favor that position. B The consecration wasnt done as she requested. ( I favor this position). These are my opinions. I dont see World Peace.

It is not world peace, but a period of peace. Our Lady meant a period of peace (or reconciliation) between God and man, not so much man and man. You have to think “bigger”. The Jews thought the Messiah would save them from Rome, but it was “bigger” than that - He saved Jews and gentiles from the evil one and from our sins and gave us the gift of eternal life with Him.

 

[Victorious]

The consecrated bread and wine are not symbols.

I know, but you should add, “from a Catholic point of view”. I speak from non-Catholic viewpoint, but at same time not disrespecting Catholic point of view. Please extend to me the same courtesy.

Sorry, but I cannot extend you that “courtesy.” You are asking me to lie to you. The consecrated bread and wine are not symbols. They are truly the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity, whether you believe it or not.

 

[ORD_NASILA]

Let’s look at the position that you favor. Jesus promises us in Matt. 10:20 & Luke 12:12 that when the apostles and their successors speak, it is not them who speak, but the Spirit of their Father speaking through them. If the Consecration was not done when the Pope said that it was (the position that you favor), then either **(A) **Jesus LIED about His Holy Spirit guiding His Church leaders in matters of faith & morals or (B) the Holy Spirit of God has guided them FALSELY and is not to be trusted. Which is it?

Please may I ask question? I have three different Bibles, plus one Greek Interlinear New Testament and I find no reference in Matt.10:20 in any of them regarding the SUCCESSORS to the apostles. I do not have the Douay Rheims (?) translation, so maybe this statement is in that Bible. This is serious question, I not criticise you. It just that it seem to me that if it to apply to some successors as well as the Twelve Apostles mentioned in Matthew, then it would be necessary for them to keep to the commandment from Jesus in Matthew,
" These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not. (6) But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." This is clearly not the case in the Catholic Church. Forgive me if this is not correct. Regard, O.N.

 

[Victorious]

Ord, why don’t you start a new thread on these topics in the Apologetics forum? This thread is starting to get derailed.

 

[Sir_Knight]

Please may I ask question? I have three different Bibles, plus one Greek Interlinear New Testament and I find no reference in Matt.10:20 in any of them regarding the SUCCESSORS to the apostles. I do not have the Douay Rheims (?) translation, so maybe this statement is in that Bible. This is serious question, I not criticise you. It just that it seem to me that if it to apply to some successors as well as the Twelve Apostles mentioned in Matthew, then it would be necessary for them to keep to the commandment from Jesus in Matthew,
" These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not. (6) But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." This is clearly not the case in the Catholic Church. Forgive me if this is not correct. Regard, O.N.

In Acts 1:20 a successor of Judas is chosen and Matthias is ordained with full apostolic authority. The authority of his office (his “bishopric”) is respected notwithstanding his egregious sin. Furthermore, through out the NT (Col 1:25, 1 Tim. 3:1, etc.) Paul refers to his position as a divine “office”. An office has successors. It does not terminate at death. Or it’s not an office. See also Heb. 7:23 – an office continues with another successor after the previous office-holder’s death. Everyone understood that Paul’s use of episcopoi (in 1 Tim. 3:1) and office meant it would carry on after his death by those who would succeed him.

Thus, the promise that Jesus made to His Apostles applies to their successors as well. The necessity to have apostolic succession in order for the Church to survive was understood by all. God never said, “I’ll give you leaders with authority for about 400 years, but after the Bible is compiled, you are all on your own.”

With regards to the instructions that Jesus gave to them preach only to the house of Israel, that was an instruction given to them only while Jesus was still physically with them. It was their on-the-job training so to speak. Jesus then modifies this commandment to them just before ascending to heaven with the instructions " … go and make disciples of ALL nations … " (see Matt. 28:19). This is clearly the case in the Catholic Church.

 

[Sir_Knight]

Ord, why don’t you start a new thread on these topics in the Apologetics forum? This thread is starting to get derailed.

I think my above reply answered the question.

 

[Robert_Burns]

In Acts 1:20 a successor of Judas is chosen and Matthias is ordained with full apostolic authority. The authority of his office (his “bishopric”) is respected notwithstanding his egregious sin. Furthermore, through out the NT (Col 1:25, 1 Tim. 3:1, etc.) Paul refers to his position as a divine “office”. An office has successors. It does not terminate at death. Or it’s not an office. See also Heb. 7:23 – an office continues with another successor after the previous office-holder’s death. Everyone understood that Paul’s use of episcopoi (in 1 Tim. 3:1) and office meant it would carry on after his death by those who would succeed him.

Thus, the promise that Jesus made to His Apostles applies to their successors as well. The necessity to have apostolic succession in order for the Church to survive was understood by all. God never said, “I’ll give you leaders with authority for about 400 years, but after the Bible is compiled, you are all on your own.”

With regards to the instructions that Jesus gave to them preach only to the house of Israel, that was an instruction given to them only while Jesus was still physically with them. It was their on-the-job training so to speak. Jesus then modifies this commandment to them just before ascending to heaven with the instructions " … go and make disciples of ALL nations … " (see Matt. 28:19). This is clearly the case in the Catholic Church.

Your Apologetic argument is sound with one caveat. The possible existance of Heretics within the Church. I cite the Existance of Judas Iscariot and Our Lords warning to Beware of False Prophets in Matthew 7 : 15 Though 20. Certainly holding office isnt the only criteria if the Fruits are not indicative of sound doctrine. Certainly the recent Scandals point to something being amiss. And no , I am not making a wild accusation about anyone in particular. I am not impugning anyone’s Claim whether legitimate or illegitimate to Ecclesiastic Office. Certainly Nestorius and Arius wielded Power on a platform they claimed from The same Apostolic authority you cite. I am simply not as forthcoming to annoit them (Those who claim the Consecration is done) as Living Saints all the while ignoring the fruits of their labors being thorns. In short - there isnt world peace meaning the FRUIT Grown isnt what we know should have been planted by the Consecration. I think if we are honest about that - then we can move to address the shortcoming and perhaps if a complete and unmistakable Consecration is done precisely as Our Lady requested step by step - what would be the negative of it? In fact - with the latest Scandal - it might even be a good thing for the Church to do to lift us out of the contempt which the secularists are using to defame our religion. That is what I see. And no , I am not going to argue about specifics. Why bother. Some of you are entrenched in your belief that it has been done and I an many others are not. I think we will just agree to disagree on this. I remain unconvinced.

 

[simple_soul]

*Hi everyone,

I started to follow this thread because I was hopping to find out exactly what the requests and promises that Our Lady made were. But…it know seems to be only about whether Russia was or was not consecrated.
I am familiar with the general story of Fatima but I am fuzzy on Our Lady’s requests and promises so I was wondering if anyone would just bullet point the requests and promises made by Our Lady of Fatima. Or, maybe some one can recommend a book or website that will do this for me.

My thanks to anyone for their time.

 

[Bob_Crowley]

Today, Russia has the highest abortion rate in the world. Fr. Daniel Maurer, C.J.D., who spent eight years in Russia, says that statistically, the average Russian woman will have eight abortions during her childbearing years—though Fr. Maurer believes the actual number averaged out to be about 12 abortions per woman. He has spoken to women who have had as many as 25 abortions. A major reason for these dreadful figures is that other contraception methods (which are immoral anyway) have not been introduced in Russia, nor are they trusted. This leaves abortion as the “cheapest way to limit the family size”. Presently in Russia, abortions are free, but births are not.70

The Russian birth rate is plummeting and Russia’s population is dropping at the rate of 700,000 people each year — an unprecedented event in a civilized nation during “peacetime.”71

Russia has the highest alcohol consumption in the world.72

Satanism, occultism and witchcraft are on the rise in Russia, as even the Russian Orthodox patriarch, Alexy II, publicly admits.73

Homosexuality is rampant in Moscow and throughout the country. In fact, in April 1993, nine years after the 1984 “consecration”, Boris Yeltsin allowed homosexuality to be de-criminalized. Homosexuality is now “legal” in Russia.74

Russia is a leading world center for the distribution of child pornography. The Associated Press reported on a Moscow-based child pornography ring linked to another child pornography ring in Texas. To quote AP: “Russian law does not distinguish between child pornography and pornography involving adults, and treats the production and distribution of either as a minor crime, said Dmitry Chepchugov, head of the Russian Interior Ministry’s department for high technology crimes. Russian police often complain about the legal chaos that has turned Russia into an international center of child pornography production. ‘Unfortunately, Russia has turned into a world trash bin of child pornography,’ Chepchugov told reporters in Moscow.”75

Russians are addicted to “reality-based” TV. On the most vile of the “reality-based” shows, cameras film the intimate personal lives of Russian “couples,” including their activity breaking the 6th Commandment. Despite grumbles of disapproval from old hard-line Communists, Russian viewers “cannot get enough” of this pornography. The program “boasts an audience share of more than 50% and thousands of Russians have endured sub-zero temperatures and stood in line for more than an hour to catch a glimpse of it through a window of the apartment. Millions have logged on to the website, which has crashed frequently under the weight of the heavy traffic.”76

I don’t think you’d find the good old USA too far behind. *** It was the West which led the way*** in legalising homosexuality, witchcraft (remember Anton Le Vey in California?), reality based TV, drug taking, child pornography and all the rest.

Granted abortions were rampant under the Soviets, and alcoholism has long been a traditiional Russian problem.

All the Russians are doing is catching up on the “freedoms” we’ve had for so long.

 

[RichardJS]

The consecration of RUSSIA has not been made. The Bleesed Virgin Mary, Queen of Heaven and earth asked for nothing else. The fact is that priests and Bishops and Pope’s have avoided their responsibilities for many years. Such is the reason so many priests and nuns left their calling.

 

[JMJ_coder]

The consecration of RUSSIA has not been made.

The Church and Lucia, the Seer of Fatima says it has. Why do you believe Lucia when she relates the story of Fatima but not when she relates that this Fatima request has been fulfilled? Seems like picking and choosing to me.

The Bleesed Virgin Mary, Queen of Heaven and earth asked for nothing else.

Then you know little to nothing about Fatima. Among the other things Our Lady related and asked for, she asked for all of us (which includes YOU) to pray, repent, and do penance.

The fact is that priests and Bishops and Pope’s have avoided their responsibilities for many years.

Let’s not generalize.

Such is the reason so many priests and nuns left their calling.

The reason that many Priests and Nuns left their vocations are varied, but I doubt a single one has to do with ‘well there hasn’t been a consecration of Russia yet’.

 

[JMJ_coder]

in legalising homosexuality

Perhaps in this latest go around, but there have been bouts in the past (like in ancient Rome).

witchcraft

This, too, is as old as the sun. Simon the magician wasn’t doing parlor tricks for the Apostles, and the prophets of Ba’al weren’t doing card tricks.

reality based TV

Any issue with TV is only going to be little more than 100 years old (though much of what had to be addressed with acting applies). So-called reality TV isn’t bad in and of itself, it’s just the topics that are chosen are so banal and stupid…

drug taking

This is also as old as man. In fact, it isn’t limited to mankind, as other animals are observed using intoxicating substances (such as eating plants that cause certain effects [e.g., kitty loves catnip]).

child pornography

Well, I’m sure if Mohammed had a camera he would have taken some questionable snapshots of his child bride.

What’s my point with all of this? Simply this: there is nothing new under the sun. The culture in the USA is not the most corrupt in the history of the world (nor in the modern world). The fact is we must take responsibility for ourselves. Saint Francis didn’t start out reforming the Church, he started by reforming himself and the rest fell into place. If we can learn anything from Fatima it is that we must do our own part first and primarily.

The message of Fatima is this: pray and do penance. If you miss that, you’ve missed it.

 

[JMJ_coder]

*Hi everyone,

I started to follow this thread because I was hopping to find out exactly what the requests and promises that Our Lady made were. But…it know seems to be only about whether Russia was or was not consecrated.
I am familiar with the general story of Fatima but I am fuzzy on Our Lady’s requests and promises so I was wondering if anyone would just bullet point the requests and promises made by Our Lady of Fatima. Or, maybe some one can recommend a* book or website that will do this for me.

My thanks to anyone for their time.

Here’s a link to the Vatican information on Fatima: vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000626_message-fatima_en.html

 

[JMJ_coder]

Your Apologetic argument is sound with one caveat. The possible existance of Heretics within the Church. I cite the Existance of Judas Iscariot and Our Lords warning to Beware of False Prophets in Matthew 7 : 15 Though 20. Certainly holding office isnt the only criteria if the Fruits are not indicative of sound doctrine. Certainly the recent Scandals point to something being amiss. And no , I am not making a wild accusation about anyone in particular. I am not impugning anyone’s Claim whether legitimate or illegitimate to Ecclesiastic Office. Certainly Nestorius and Arius wielded Power on a platform they claimed from The same Apostolic authority you cite. I am simply not as forthcoming to annoit them (Those who claim the Consecration is done) as Living Saints all the while ignoring the fruits of their labors being thorns. In short - there isnt world peace meaning the FRUIT Grown isnt what we know should have been planted by the Consecration. I think if we are honest about that - then we can move to address the shortcoming and perhaps if a complete and unmistakable Consecration is done precisely as Our Lady requested step by step - what would be the negative of it? In fact - with the latest Scandal - it might even be a good thing for the Church to do to lift us out of the contempt which the secularists are using to defame our religion. That is what I see. And no , I am not going to argue about specifics. Why bother. Some of you are entrenched in your belief that it has been done and I an many others are not. I think we will just agree to disagree on this. I remain unconvinced.

First of all, a Deacons, Priest, or Bishops ordination and lawful authority isn’t contingent on their personal holiness (though we’d all hope and pray that every ordained man, and indeed every Christian, is a saintly person).

Second, that fact that there isn’t world peace and therefore the Consecration must not have taken place doesn’t stand scrutiny. For one thing, I’m not aware of any timetable on accomplishment for this. Indeed, the original messages make mention of WW2, which has already come and gone so I don’t think we can avoid that. For another thing, as I mentioned before, many Jews mock Christians that Jesus cannot be the Messiah because the Messiah is to usher in world peace (the whole lion lying down the the lamb, etc.) and obviously we don’t have that nor have we in the 2000 year history of the Church.