Several questions regarding the events at Fatima, Portugal in 1917...

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Sir_Knight said:
First off, “Ex Cathedra” refers to infallible teachings made by the Pope in accordance with “whatever you bind on earth, will be bound in heaven”. Popes also can not error when guiding the Church because Jesus promised that the gates of hell would not overcome His Church. If a Pope guided the Church down an incorrect path, that would mean that the gates of hell DID overcome the Church.

Robert: DOCTRINALLY SPEAKING. Fatima isnt a DOCTRINAL ISSUE

Exactly. Now you’re beginning to get it. Papal infallibility does not give a Pope authority over heaven but assures that whatever he declares is already the case in heaven because he was guided to this truth by the Holy Spirit of truth.

Robert: Precisely , and when the CHURCH said that FATIMA was “Worthy of Belief” what the Church was saying is that nothing from FATIMA Violated DOCTRINE. Catholics are free to believe in it.

Nobody ever said that but OFFICIAL Church teaching as found in the CCC states that the Pope continues to be guided by the Holy Spirit even when he is not speaking “Ex Cathedra”.

Robert: IN DOCTRINE. The Consecration isnt DOCTRINE.

Prosit.
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JustaServant said:
Whoa, stop right there.
Jesus said the gates of Hell would not prevail against the Church.
The key word there is prevail.
If you are going to claim popes down through the ages have all been as pure as the driven snow, you need to read more history. Popes are human beings, not divine. The Church does not teach every word the Pope says is infallible.
These are the kind of statements that feed the fuel of anti-Catholics.
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Raobert: WELL SAID !!! Bravo.
 
cathdoki said:
Who do we put our faith in? Jesus or Mary. I love Mary as my spiritual mother and pray to her. Pray the Rosary. But this is ALL private revelation anyway. There is nothing binding.

I trust the Church in matters of faith. Why shouldn’t we just consecrate the world to JESUS?
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Its one of the same. Mary is the Queen of Heaven. As a matter of fact you cannot deny her because she “is” the one inceeding on behalf of mankind.

Listen to me…the question is slightly deeper than if you read the Bible and believe in Jesus thus God and live as its told, will you reside in Heaven, as Jesus Christs brother? YES most definatly you can find Heaven and God without the Blessed Mother.

This is “aside” from the point of the OP Thread.

The Blessed Mothers concern is “mankind” and all the Souls being LOST. Its not a question of could your reach Heaven and God without Mary. Mary came and directly and specifically said specific things MUST happen. She was NOT asking. She was TELLING us. Just like when Jesus says DO THIS, he’s not asking you, he’s telling you.

There is NO CHOICE. That is the word of GOD. Take a GOOD look at what the Vatican is doing with the position the Blessed Mother holds in the church. They are also telling us she is the word of God. And she “is” interceeding on behalf of HEAVEN-GOD.
 
cathdoki said:
Who do we put our faith in? Jesus or Mary. I love Mary as my spiritual mother and pray to her. Pray the Rosary. But this is ALL private revelation anyway. There is nothing binding.

I trust the Church in matters of faith. Why shouldn’t we just consecrate the world to JESUS?
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Are you requesting We Consecrate the World to Jesus or is the Blessed Virgin Mary?

She performed the Miracle of the Sun and made specific Promises

What are you going to do that compares?
 
Robert_Burns said:
Are you requesting We Consecrate the World to Jesus or is the Blessed Virgin Mary?

She performed the Miracle of the Sun and made specific Promises

What are you going to do that compares?
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I have no idea where you are coming from on that. 🤷
 
GaryTaylor said:
Its one of the same. Mary is the Queen of Heaven. As a matter of fact you cannot deny her because she “is” the one inceeding on behalf of mankind.

Listen to me…the question is slightly deeper than if you read the Bible and believe in Jesus thus God and live as its told, will you reside in Heaven, as Jesus Christs brother? YES most definatly you can find Heaven and God without the Blessed Mother.

This is “aside” from the point of the OP Thread.

The Blessed Mothers concern is “mankind” and all the Souls being LOST. Its not a question of could your reach Heaven and God without Mary. Mary came and directly and specifically said specific things MUST happen. She was NOT asking. She was TELLING us. Just like when Jesus says DO THIS, he’s not asking you, he’s telling you.

There is NO CHOICE. That is the word of GOD. Take a GOOD look at what the Vatican is doing with the position the Blessed Mother holds in the church. They are also telling us she is the word of God. And she “is” interceeding on behalf of HEAVEN-GOD.
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THAT IS NOT THE WORD OF GOD. It is private revelation. It is also an apparition that I firmly believe in.

From the CCC

There will be no further Revelation

66 "The Christian economy, therefore, since it is the new and definitive Covenant, will never pass away; and no new public revelation is to be expected before the glorious manifestation of our Lord Jesus Christ."28 Yet even if Revelation is already complete, it has not been made completely explicit; it remains for Christian faith gradually to grasp its full significance over the course of the centuries.

67 Throughout the ages, there have been so-called “private” revelations, some of which have been recognized by the authority of the Church. They do not belong, however, to the deposit of faith. It is not their role to improve or complete Christ’s definitive Revelation, but to help live more fully by it in a certain period of history. Guided by the Magisterium of the Church, the sensus fidelium knows how to discern and welcome in these revelations whatever constitutes an authentic call of Christ or his saints to the Church.

Christian faith cannot accept “revelations” that claim to surpass or correct the Revelation of which Christ is the fulfillment, as is the case in certain non-Christian religions and also in certain recent sects which base themselves on such “revelations”.
 
cathdoki said:
I have no idea where you are coming from on that. 🤷
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You do realize that the Blessed Virgin Mary asked that the Pope Consecrate in Union with the Worlds Bishops - Russia to her Immaculate Heart. And that it would be converted.

So when you say - Why dont we just consecrate the World to Jesus where is that coming from in light of the Entire Topic being discussed?
 
Robert_Burns said:
You do realize that the Blessed Virgin Mary asked that the Pope Consecrate in Union with the Worlds Bishops - Russia to her Immaculate Heart. And that it would be converted.

So when you say - Why dont we just consecrate the World to Jesus where is that coming from in light of the Entire Topic being discussed?
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It’s coming from the Gospel.
 
GaryTaylor said:
The Blessed Mothers concern is “mankind” and all the Souls being LOST.
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Dear Gary,
I know this was not directed to me but I have a quick question and comment.
Do you believe that the whole message that our Blessed Mother was trying to give us could be that we should be sharing in her concern for all mankind?
GaryTaylor said:
Its not a question of could your reach Heaven and God without Mary.
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I do not believe this is what anyone is trying to say. But then I could be wrong.
 
cathdoki said:
THAT IS NOT THE WORD OF GOD. It is private revelation. It is also an apparition that I firmly believe in.

From the CCC

There will be no further Revelation

66 "The Christian economy, therefore, since it is the new and definitive Covenant, will never pass away; and no new public revelation is to be expected before the glorious manifestation of our Lord Jesus Christ."28 Yet even if Revelation is already complete, it has not been made completely explicit; it remains for Christian faith gradually to grasp its full significance over the course of the centuries.

67 Throughout the ages, there have been so-called “private” revelations, some of which have been recognized by the authority of the Church. They do not belong, however, to the deposit of faith. It is not their role to improve or complete Christ’s definitive Revelation, but to help live more fully by it in a certain period of history. Guided by the Magisterium of the Church, the sensus fidelium knows how to discern and welcome in these revelations whatever constitutes an authentic call of Christ or his saints to the Church.

Christian faith cannot accept “revelations” that claim to surpass or correct the Revelation of which Christ is the fulfillment, as is the case in certain non-Christian religions and also in certain recent sects which base themselves on such “revelations”.
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Again, this is not what this topic is. And your entitled to “your” belief, let the Catholic’s respectfully have theres, and start another topic post.
 
cathdoki said:
You got me there! Fatima trumps the Gospel. :eek:
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No - we can all discuss the Gospel in a thread devoted to the Gospel. That wouldnt be this thread. You are taking the conversation in a direction other than the Topic being discussed.
 
GaryTaylor said:
Again, this is not what this topic is. And your entitled to “your” belief, let the Catholic’s respectfully have theres, and start another topic post.
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HUH? It’s not my belief. It’s the teaching of the Catholic Church. Deny it and it’s heresy.
 
simple_soul said:
Dear Gary,
I know this was not directed to me but I have a quick question and comment.
Do you believe that the whole message that our Blessed Mother was trying to give us could be that we should be sharing in her concern for all mankind?

I do not believe this is what anyone is trying to say. But then I could be wrong.
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If your asking me do I literally believe what she said? Yes most definatly, word for word. And I believe the message of Akita is a direct confirmation of the mesage at Fatima.

I believe she’s so concerned for mankind that she repeated the same basic message seventy years later.
 
GaryTaylor said:
If your asking me do I literally believe what she said? Yes most definatly, word for word. And I believe the message of Akita is a direct confirmation of the mesage at Fatima.

I believe she’s so concerned for mankind that she repeated the same basic message seventy years later.
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Robert: You arent alone Gary - As do I.
 
GaryTaylor said:
If your asking me do I literally believe what she said? Yes most definatly, word for word. And I believe the message of Akita is a direct confirmation of the mesage at Fatima.

I believe she’s so concerned for mankind that she repeated the same basic message seventy years later.
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*No I am not asking you if you literally believe what she said. I am specifically wonderng about the way you worded what she said.
I do agree with you that she does have concern for mankind. I am just wondering if maybe her messages are also asking us to share in her concern for all mankind? *
 
cathdoki said:
HUH? It’s not my belief. It’s the teaching of the Catholic Church. Deny it and it’s heresy.
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What is the Heresy? Define it. If the Church approves an Apparition then the Church is proclaiming using its Apostolic authority that there is nothing doctrinally amiss.

Therefore - if a False Seer like that one named Vassula wandering around Europe the last few years pops up - the Church will investigate and decide whether or not ones faith is damaged doctrinally by following the edicts that eminate therefrom.

Its important to understand - FATIMA has met the Churches Scrutiny and is authentic.
 
Robert_Burns said:
If the Church approves an Apparition then the Church is proclaiming using its Apostolic authority that there is nothing doctrinally amiss.
Its important to understand - FATIMA has met the Churches Scrutiny and is authentic.
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*So then using this criteria, “if the Church proclaims using its Apostolic authority,” that the consecration was done as requested by the Blessed Mother Mary why should we not believe her? *
 
cathdoki said:
HUH? It’s not my belief. It’s the teaching of the Catholic Church. Deny it and it’s heresy.
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en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marian_apparition

Here you go, read about it. I’m talking about Fatima and its relation to Akita. They are approved through the Vativcan and of this time. They are not simple apparitions. This is the word directly from the Blessed Mother.

What you are speaking on is injecting her word into todays Bible. Thats not what I’m saying.

Let me ask you something since you Pray the Rosary daily. If Mary appeared to you tommorrow and had a twenty minute conversation specifically with “you”, with another 10 people around to confrim it. Would you listen to her? Would you believe it was the word of GOD?
 
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