G
Galnextdoor
Guest
I am sorry to hear about your health problems. How will taking the testosterone affect your marriage? Does it have any affect on the way you feel? I have been praying for you and will continue to do so.
- Status
M
mrpathetic
Guest
How will the testosterone treatment affect my marriage? Hard to say. I am certainly not expecting any improvement sexually. Even if my sex drive improves, it will not change the fact that my wife patently refuses to have sex with me - or to even sleep with me. So unless my wife changes her situation, my **sex life **won’t improve.
Now my **sex drive **could increase - that is certainly one of the potential impacts of HRT, for both men and women. However, until my marital situation changes - in one way or another - then I will need to keep it under wraps. I have a great deal of self-control, so this should not be a problem.
HRT can also help improve mode and overall energy levels. That is generally not a problem for me. I am starting this course of treatment, because I don’t want to die prematurely from a debilitating disease, such as heart disease or diabetes. Men with low testosterone have a 40% greater chance of premature death, than men with normal levels. That is my motivation. Any other improvements, in relationships or emotional wellbeing, will be a bonus.
Now my **sex drive **could increase - that is certainly one of the potential impacts of HRT, for both men and women. However, until my marital situation changes - in one way or another - then I will need to keep it under wraps. I have a great deal of self-control, so this should not be a problem.
HRT can also help improve mode and overall energy levels. That is generally not a problem for me. I am starting this course of treatment, because I don’t want to die prematurely from a debilitating disease, such as heart disease or diabetes. Men with low testosterone have a 40% greater chance of premature death, than men with normal levels. That is my motivation. Any other improvements, in relationships or emotional wellbeing, will be a bonus.
S
savienu
Guest
MrPatience, (I will not call you Pathetic), you are in my prayers.
M
misfitz
Guest
It’s time SHE sleeps on the couch!!! YOU throw her out of YOUR bedroom. SHE is the one who is causing this problem, NOT YOU. SHE is the problem.
I’m dead serious. Throw her out of YOUR bedroom now!
M
materdequint
Guest
Original Poster,
I am assuming a lot of things because I am not a mind reader. Your wife shows signs of trauma as a child, likely sexual. Evidence, same-sex attraction (women are less threatening than men) and she was attracted to you a-non-threatening man.
You are not a loser, she was attracted to you. She is acting like a child, You can have empathy for that child that was hurt. Remember your life may be awful right now but you are living for your eternal life. I know what it is like to have a bad marriage.
But you can put your foot down as far as the finances are concerned. Give her the chance, say you want to work on a budget. She will likely blow you off or be abusive. If that is the case - close all of your joint accounts. I did this with my alcoholic stay at home dad husband. Is she is so happy with her lesbian lover, why hasn’t she left. Open a checking account in your name only - give her cash only for groceries, etc or shop yourself. I ended up doing the shopping for a while. She will pitch a huge fit anyway - but at least she won’t be spending you into the poor house.
It may even bring about a change in the relationship dynamic for the better. What you are doing now isn’t working anyway.
Get some counseling and a trusted friend too.
I am assuming a lot of things because I am not a mind reader. Your wife shows signs of trauma as a child, likely sexual. Evidence, same-sex attraction (women are less threatening than men) and she was attracted to you a-non-threatening man.
You are not a loser, she was attracted to you. She is acting like a child, You can have empathy for that child that was hurt. Remember your life may be awful right now but you are living for your eternal life. I know what it is like to have a bad marriage.
But you can put your foot down as far as the finances are concerned. Give her the chance, say you want to work on a budget. She will likely blow you off or be abusive. If that is the case - close all of your joint accounts. I did this with my alcoholic stay at home dad husband. Is she is so happy with her lesbian lover, why hasn’t she left. Open a checking account in your name only - give her cash only for groceries, etc or shop yourself. I ended up doing the shopping for a while. She will pitch a huge fit anyway - but at least she won’t be spending you into the poor house.
It may even bring about a change in the relationship dynamic for the better. What you are doing now isn’t working anyway.
Get some counseling and a trusted friend too.
J
Joseph_L_Varga
Guest
Dear Sir,
It has been truly an inspiration for me to read about your faithfulness and upright ways in the face of such adversity.
I have two major points to make, and I will start with the immediate one - the one that requires your immediate attention and action. No, don’t wait another 2 years with the divorce. Even if you close your joint checking accounts today, your wife can go and buy a new car on credit, and you will be financially responsible for everything she does. Hopefully she no longer has credit lines and credit cards, but IF she has - she can charge them to the limit, and she will do exactly that and then at a moment that’s opportune for her, she will file for divorce and she could even ruin you financially. You don’t want this, because of your children. You must talk to your attorney, and come up with an action plan that gives you maximum financial protection from your wife’s recklessness, but do it in secret, do not disclose and do not mention anything to her. You must surprise her and serve her with the divorce papers BEFORE she can go out and spend so much as to get you into trouble. I am no lawyer, but I know that in most States you as the husband are financially responsible for everything your wife does, until the two of you either agree and sign a legal separation that clearly spells out that you are no longer one household financially, or you file for divorce/get divorced. You must protect yourself financially and emotionally because your children still need you. Also, in my opinion, there is no point further confronting her about the marriage bed and other issues, because she will not cooperate, she is not willing to solve anything. As a previous poster said, you can take a horse to the water, but cannot make it drink. Also, it takes two to tango. Your wife is not willing to make this marriage work, she is not a partner to your efforts. You will just endlessly frustrate yourself because you cannot fix a marriage and a relationship alone. The practical aspect of divorce is also this: who will move out, who will take over the mortgage payments, etc. You should discuss this with your lawyer in secret and keep the element of surprise - because once you file for divorce, you are no longer financially responsible for your wife’s spending, it seems to me, but I’m not sure. You really need to talk to your lawyer and come up with an action plan and act on it. Don’t wait another 2 years - your wife will file for divorce anyway, and she will probably try to take maximum advantage of you and divorce on the terms that are most advantageous to her, and she will probably act in secret and plan it out in secret herself and will have the advantage of the initiative when she files for divorce. And, she may not care that much about a comprehensive solution that’s best for your children. I mean, what’s her plan, kick you out of the house, take custody of the children, and bring her partner (Lesbian lover?) to your home? Will this serve your children’s interest, your children having to put up with your wife’s new partner?? You can do better and you must do better, for your children’s sake. Excuse me if I’m rambling, it’s late and I’m sleepy. I should be giving you some real life examples - I will give one. Wife had a secret relationship with another man. She kicked out the husband (they also have 2 children), filed for divorce, made it all seem as if it was the husband’s fault, she kept the house which was almost fully paid, and ripped off her ex-husband financially as much as she could. Now, she is about to marry her lover. The children are 17 and 11 y.o., respectively. The children stayed with the mother, they lost their very loving and responsible father, they are about to get a new stepdad who just divorced his own wife and left his own 3 children to marry the woman with whom he had an affair. I doubt that this served the interests of the children involved. The husband in this case tried to save the marriage to the last moment, but the wife didn’t cooperate and destroyed everything, now she is going to hurt her children’s soul. It just seems to me that you are risking something similar, because the problem is not going to go away in 2 years and I’m really afraid your wife will divorce you then, in spite of all your efforts to save this marriage - because it takes two to tango and she already abandoned you emotionally a long time ago and she just doesn’t care.
The second point, I will try to be shorter. I don’t know whether your marriage is valid in God’s eyes. A Catholic Tribunal can make that assessment. And if it is not valid, there’s no point killing yourself, trying to make it work. I mean if it is not a sacrament, you are really not bound to stay with your “legal” but “not sacramental” wife. It could be simply that you are un-equally yoked together, being this a “putative” marriage. Putative = one party celebrated it in good faith and acted as if it was a valid marriage, but the other party was either unwilling or incapable for sacramental marriage and thus a sacramental marriage never really took place.
In my opinion, you should act first with the divorce, because of the financial, house/living arrangements and child custody aspects involved. It is fully compatible and supported by the Catholic Church’s teaching to separate and get a civil divorce in cases such as yours. You must stay strong and take the initiative, not only because of yourself, but because YOU are in charge, YOU have a cool head, and YOU are your children’s true keeper (even if your wife apparently thinks otherwise). In the second step, you can find out whether your marriage is sacramental and valid in God’s eyes - the Church Tribunal will determine that, and then you can make your future plans from there.
May God bless you and protect you,
Joseph
It has been truly an inspiration for me to read about your faithfulness and upright ways in the face of such adversity.
I have two major points to make, and I will start with the immediate one - the one that requires your immediate attention and action. No, don’t wait another 2 years with the divorce. Even if you close your joint checking accounts today, your wife can go and buy a new car on credit, and you will be financially responsible for everything she does. Hopefully she no longer has credit lines and credit cards, but IF she has - she can charge them to the limit, and she will do exactly that and then at a moment that’s opportune for her, she will file for divorce and she could even ruin you financially. You don’t want this, because of your children. You must talk to your attorney, and come up with an action plan that gives you maximum financial protection from your wife’s recklessness, but do it in secret, do not disclose and do not mention anything to her. You must surprise her and serve her with the divorce papers BEFORE she can go out and spend so much as to get you into trouble. I am no lawyer, but I know that in most States you as the husband are financially responsible for everything your wife does, until the two of you either agree and sign a legal separation that clearly spells out that you are no longer one household financially, or you file for divorce/get divorced. You must protect yourself financially and emotionally because your children still need you. Also, in my opinion, there is no point further confronting her about the marriage bed and other issues, because she will not cooperate, she is not willing to solve anything. As a previous poster said, you can take a horse to the water, but cannot make it drink. Also, it takes two to tango. Your wife is not willing to make this marriage work, she is not a partner to your efforts. You will just endlessly frustrate yourself because you cannot fix a marriage and a relationship alone. The practical aspect of divorce is also this: who will move out, who will take over the mortgage payments, etc. You should discuss this with your lawyer in secret and keep the element of surprise - because once you file for divorce, you are no longer financially responsible for your wife’s spending, it seems to me, but I’m not sure. You really need to talk to your lawyer and come up with an action plan and act on it. Don’t wait another 2 years - your wife will file for divorce anyway, and she will probably try to take maximum advantage of you and divorce on the terms that are most advantageous to her, and she will probably act in secret and plan it out in secret herself and will have the advantage of the initiative when she files for divorce. And, she may not care that much about a comprehensive solution that’s best for your children. I mean, what’s her plan, kick you out of the house, take custody of the children, and bring her partner (Lesbian lover?) to your home? Will this serve your children’s interest, your children having to put up with your wife’s new partner?? You can do better and you must do better, for your children’s sake. Excuse me if I’m rambling, it’s late and I’m sleepy. I should be giving you some real life examples - I will give one. Wife had a secret relationship with another man. She kicked out the husband (they also have 2 children), filed for divorce, made it all seem as if it was the husband’s fault, she kept the house which was almost fully paid, and ripped off her ex-husband financially as much as she could. Now, she is about to marry her lover. The children are 17 and 11 y.o., respectively. The children stayed with the mother, they lost their very loving and responsible father, they are about to get a new stepdad who just divorced his own wife and left his own 3 children to marry the woman with whom he had an affair. I doubt that this served the interests of the children involved. The husband in this case tried to save the marriage to the last moment, but the wife didn’t cooperate and destroyed everything, now she is going to hurt her children’s soul. It just seems to me that you are risking something similar, because the problem is not going to go away in 2 years and I’m really afraid your wife will divorce you then, in spite of all your efforts to save this marriage - because it takes two to tango and she already abandoned you emotionally a long time ago and she just doesn’t care.
The second point, I will try to be shorter. I don’t know whether your marriage is valid in God’s eyes. A Catholic Tribunal can make that assessment. And if it is not valid, there’s no point killing yourself, trying to make it work. I mean if it is not a sacrament, you are really not bound to stay with your “legal” but “not sacramental” wife. It could be simply that you are un-equally yoked together, being this a “putative” marriage. Putative = one party celebrated it in good faith and acted as if it was a valid marriage, but the other party was either unwilling or incapable for sacramental marriage and thus a sacramental marriage never really took place.
In my opinion, you should act first with the divorce, because of the financial, house/living arrangements and child custody aspects involved. It is fully compatible and supported by the Catholic Church’s teaching to separate and get a civil divorce in cases such as yours. You must stay strong and take the initiative, not only because of yourself, but because YOU are in charge, YOU have a cool head, and YOU are your children’s true keeper (even if your wife apparently thinks otherwise). In the second step, you can find out whether your marriage is sacramental and valid in God’s eyes - the Church Tribunal will determine that, and then you can make your future plans from there.
May God bless you and protect you,
Joseph
S
Salonika
Guest
Mr Estimable - I am sorry to hear that you have had to go on to testosterone replacement therapy and this could for the rest of your life. I am also pleased that your doctor was able to rule out what sounds some really nasty causes like a pituitary tumour as a contributory cause of your low testosterone.
Thak goodness it has been picked up as some of the increased risks you would have faced if it hadn’t are not ones anyone would like to have.
I hope 2009 sees the resolution of your martial situation and a much happier you.
J
Joseph_L_Varga
Guest
Dear Mr. Estimable,
I keep thinking about your situation …
There might be a less drastic solution available, such as a “legal separation”, but it could also be that true protection would only be offered by divorce. If I were involved in a situation like this, I would look to take immediate action to extricate myself from the situation of emotional abuse and financial and other vulnerabilities. If I would be forced to sleep on a couch in the living room, how long would it be before the lack of comfortable and refreshing sleep would affect my job performance and put in a danger my ability to earn a living and provide financial stability to my family? I am single, but have old parents and I also help financially my nephew and niece who are college students, therefore I know this part from experience. What happened to the guest room with a decent bed, why won’t your wife let you sleep there? Also, if I would get yelled at and humiliated repeatedly, I would look for a way out, as in a separate place of my own, where the abusive party cannot enter and I can feel in safety. I was subject to a similar abusive situation at my workplace several years ago and I know it has a devastating effect on the victim’s morale, emotional well-being, and job performance. And so, I really believe you should get out of this. When I was there, I felt almost paralyzed, but I was lucky that my family and friends supported me and I found a way to leave the abusive workplace. I don’t believe that God requires you to put up with spousal abuse to a point where your health and job performance is affected. In fact I believe you have a duty to protect yourself, since your whole family depends on you and you need to stay strong and in good health to provide for them. Same goes for the risks of reckless spending - you and your whole family are not safe as long as your wife can overspend and any creditors can hold you financially responsible for her actions. I guess setting boundaries and protecting your health, financial and emotional stability, ability to perform at the workplace and provide for your family, are more than a right - they are a responsibility.
Once you take action and stabilize the situation to remove the acute threats, you will be able to take the next steps. Maybe your marriage is valid, sacramental and binding for life; maybe it is not. Either way, I trust that you love and pray for your wife. In my family, my father who left us when I was 6 - more exactly, he chased away my mother and her 2 children from the home she owned from the time before she got married -, just lost his (civil marriage) wife whom he married after he left us. Now, he is old and alone, my sister looks out for his needs, and I pitch in financially. We feel no resentment and also pray for my father and the repose of the soul of his 2nd wife. My mother is also happy that we take care of my father (my mother never sought an annulment and never dated anyone again, she chose to remain alone and take care of us children).
My father kept threatening my mother that he will leave her, and finally he took action, but instead of leaving us, he chased us away and tried to have my mother criminally prosecuted for “stealing” food and clothes from our house after we escaped. Your wife’s continued threats of divorcing you just eerily remind me of my father’s actions. Another parallel is that my father stopped marital intimacy with my mother since she became pregnant with me. Later we found out that he had a mistress for 5 years while still married to my mother, and he in fact wanted to marry this other woman and bring her into my mother’s house after he chased us away…
I keep thinking about your situation …
There might be a less drastic solution available, such as a “legal separation”, but it could also be that true protection would only be offered by divorce. If I were involved in a situation like this, I would look to take immediate action to extricate myself from the situation of emotional abuse and financial and other vulnerabilities. If I would be forced to sleep on a couch in the living room, how long would it be before the lack of comfortable and refreshing sleep would affect my job performance and put in a danger my ability to earn a living and provide financial stability to my family? I am single, but have old parents and I also help financially my nephew and niece who are college students, therefore I know this part from experience. What happened to the guest room with a decent bed, why won’t your wife let you sleep there? Also, if I would get yelled at and humiliated repeatedly, I would look for a way out, as in a separate place of my own, where the abusive party cannot enter and I can feel in safety. I was subject to a similar abusive situation at my workplace several years ago and I know it has a devastating effect on the victim’s morale, emotional well-being, and job performance. And so, I really believe you should get out of this. When I was there, I felt almost paralyzed, but I was lucky that my family and friends supported me and I found a way to leave the abusive workplace. I don’t believe that God requires you to put up with spousal abuse to a point where your health and job performance is affected. In fact I believe you have a duty to protect yourself, since your whole family depends on you and you need to stay strong and in good health to provide for them. Same goes for the risks of reckless spending - you and your whole family are not safe as long as your wife can overspend and any creditors can hold you financially responsible for her actions. I guess setting boundaries and protecting your health, financial and emotional stability, ability to perform at the workplace and provide for your family, are more than a right - they are a responsibility.
Once you take action and stabilize the situation to remove the acute threats, you will be able to take the next steps. Maybe your marriage is valid, sacramental and binding for life; maybe it is not. Either way, I trust that you love and pray for your wife. In my family, my father who left us when I was 6 - more exactly, he chased away my mother and her 2 children from the home she owned from the time before she got married -, just lost his (civil marriage) wife whom he married after he left us. Now, he is old and alone, my sister looks out for his needs, and I pitch in financially. We feel no resentment and also pray for my father and the repose of the soul of his 2nd wife. My mother is also happy that we take care of my father (my mother never sought an annulment and never dated anyone again, she chose to remain alone and take care of us children).
My father kept threatening my mother that he will leave her, and finally he took action, but instead of leaving us, he chased us away and tried to have my mother criminally prosecuted for “stealing” food and clothes from our house after we escaped. Your wife’s continued threats of divorcing you just eerily remind me of my father’s actions. Another parallel is that my father stopped marital intimacy with my mother since she became pregnant with me. Later we found out that he had a mistress for 5 years while still married to my mother, and he in fact wanted to marry this other woman and bring her into my mother’s house after he chased us away…
M
mrpathetic
Guest
I have done a lot of thinking since I saw the divorce attorney last November. And I did a lot of prayer and reflection. And I reread the catechism, over and ove again, on this topic. It can be found here:
usccb.org/catechism/text/pt3sect2chpt2art6.shtml
Ultimately, I have made the decision not to divorce my wife. I will wait for her to divorce me. Nor will I do anything, to antagonize my wife, to force her hand in the matter. In my mind, this is equivalent to filing for the divorce myself.
Ultimately, I think it boils down to this statement in the catechism:
2386 It can happen that one of the spouses is the innocent victim of a divorce decreed by civil law; this spouse therefore has not contravened the moral law. There is a considerable difference between a spouse who has sincerely tried to be faithful to the sacrament of marriage and is unjustly abandoned, and one who through his own grave fault destroys a canonically valid marriage.179
Ultimately, I take this statement to mean the following:** I need to be the victim, not the victimizer.** I must sincerely do what I can, to keep this marriage together. If my wife abandons me, and files for divorce, so be it. I will be the abandoned victim, and I can live with that - even if it means living a life of poverty and desolation.
I know that this assessment will not be popular in this forum. And I know that many of you will object to my assessment. And to the point, it contradicts common sense, reason, the advice of my psychotherapist and of my pastor.
But ultimately, after nearly 6 months of prayer and discernment, this is the decision that I have come to. I may be totally wrong, and in a year, you may find another post from me, stating how stupid I have been. Ultimately, time will tell if this is truly God’s will, or not.
**Please, if there is anything about the Catholic understanding of the sacrament, or the catechism, that I am totally missing, please let me know. **
usccb.org/catechism/text/pt3sect2chpt2art6.shtml
Ultimately, I have made the decision not to divorce my wife. I will wait for her to divorce me. Nor will I do anything, to antagonize my wife, to force her hand in the matter. In my mind, this is equivalent to filing for the divorce myself.
Ultimately, I think it boils down to this statement in the catechism:
2386 It can happen that one of the spouses is the innocent victim of a divorce decreed by civil law; this spouse therefore has not contravened the moral law. There is a considerable difference between a spouse who has sincerely tried to be faithful to the sacrament of marriage and is unjustly abandoned, and one who through his own grave fault destroys a canonically valid marriage.179
Ultimately, I take this statement to mean the following:** I need to be the victim, not the victimizer.** I must sincerely do what I can, to keep this marriage together. If my wife abandons me, and files for divorce, so be it. I will be the abandoned victim, and I can live with that - even if it means living a life of poverty and desolation.
I know that this assessment will not be popular in this forum. And I know that many of you will object to my assessment. And to the point, it contradicts common sense, reason, the advice of my psychotherapist and of my pastor.
But ultimately, after nearly 6 months of prayer and discernment, this is the decision that I have come to. I may be totally wrong, and in a year, you may find another post from me, stating how stupid I have been. Ultimately, time will tell if this is truly God’s will, or not.
**Please, if there is anything about the Catholic understanding of the sacrament, or the catechism, that I am totally missing, please let me know. **
M
mrpathetic
Guest
I read many articles and self-help journals, and participated in multiple support groups, before I came to this decision. But one article stood out, more than anything else. It is by Melinda Selmys, and can be found in the National Catholic Register website. Here is the link to it:
ncregister.com/site/article/4675
Ultimately, this led to my assessment, that I simply, positively, absolutely, cannot divorce my wife. I cannot take this course of action, if it means death of the mind, body and soul.
Please read this article, before you respond to me. It is ultimately what led me to make this decision, which runs contrary to much of the advice that I have received in this forum.
ncregister.com/site/article/4675
Ultimately, this led to my assessment, that I simply, positively, absolutely, cannot divorce my wife. I cannot take this course of action, if it means death of the mind, body and soul.
Please read this article, before you respond to me. It is ultimately what led me to make this decision, which runs contrary to much of the advice that I have received in this forum.
J
Joseph_L_Varga
Guest
I have been thinking of this passage in the Cathechism:
2383
"The separation of spouses while maintaining the marriage bond can be legitimate in certain cases provided for by canon law.177
If civil divorce remains the only possible way of ensuring certain legal rights, the care of the children, or the protection of inheritance, it can be tolerated and does not constitute a moral offense."
Thus, supposing that your marriage is a valid sacramental marriage, separation or divorce can be still morally legitimate in certain cases. The fact that your Pastor (Catholic Priest) advised you to take such action probably means that in his judgment this Article 2383 of the Cathechism can be applied to your case. And that’s important, that the Cathechism and Art. 2383 is part of the Magisterium and thus infallible, however the judgments of all those people who advise you to separate and/or divorce are not. It is simply not true that separation and civil divorce are always evil, based on Art. 2383, in the case of a validly contracted sacramental marriage. However the correct course of action is ultimately your call, and the judgments of various people trying to convince you or give you advice can err.
I would be really curious what those canon laws tell (footnote 177 in Art. 2383), when it is legitimate to have a civil separation. But apparently taking proper care of the children is such a grave matter and moral obligation that it can justify not only legal separation but also civil divorce.
Another important matter of Catholic understanding of the sacrament of marriage is that certain marriages may prove to be invalid or null, and in such cases a Catholic Marriage Tribunal, after assessing the validity or lack of validity of marriage, may issue a declaration of nullity. That means a sacramental and binding marriage never was contracted, even though it appeared so.
Hope this helps, although you may have been well aware of all this already.
C
chevalier
Guest
I agree. And do keep in touch with that lawyer (talking to the Opening Poster now). You don’t want to be ripped off so that your wife could take away your house and live in it with another woman or some such.
M
mrpathetic
Guest
I have long debated the option of legal separation. Yes, under the canons, I have grounds for legal separation. I mentioned this in previous posts. My wife has abandoned the Christian faith, and committed adultery. These are 2 of the specific conditions under which separation - called “limited divorce” in the canons - is permissible.
But I know what would be the result of separation. My wife would file for divorce immediately. Effectively, I would be forcing her hand, and the result would certainly be divorce. In my mind, these actions are morally equivalent, even though legally they would not be.
I’m sorry, I cannot morally justify that course of action to myself. If you knowingly cause the other person to sin, you are just as culpable as the sinner. You participate in the sin, as I have mentioned in previous posts.
The course of action that I chose to take is this: to do what is within my power, to salvage my marriage - impossible as that may seem. I will try this, even until the last moment. That is the only route that I can justify morally.
But I know what would be the result of separation. My wife would file for divorce immediately. Effectively, I would be forcing her hand, and the result would certainly be divorce. In my mind, these actions are morally equivalent, even though legally they would not be.
I’m sorry, I cannot morally justify that course of action to myself. If you knowingly cause the other person to sin, you are just as culpable as the sinner. You participate in the sin, as I have mentioned in previous posts.
The course of action that I chose to take is this: to do what is within my power, to salvage my marriage - impossible as that may seem. I will try this, even until the last moment. That is the only route that I can justify morally.
S
savienu
Guest
MrEstimable, your loyalty is so inspiring. However, I want to make clear that you are the victim of abuse- and one commits no sin to legally, civilly to divorce an abusive spouse. The sin would be in an attempt to remarry if the marriage was not anulled, or in commiting adultery. Have you sought the council of a Canon Lawyer in all this?
M
mrpathetic
Guest
I have not spoken to a canon lawyer. But I did speak with the deacon at my parish who handles annulment cases. He has processed over several hundred annulments, over his 30+ years as deacon.
He seemed to think I have an excellent case for an annulment. It was he that recommended that I speak to a divorce attorney.
However, he recommended it. He did not command me to do it. There is nothing in the canons that commands someone to seek a divorce, annulment, or separation. Ultimately, the decision to apply for any of these procedures boils down to the individuals involved.
And I have spent an inordinant amount of time in prayer and reflection, since I started this process.** I cannot give up on my marriage just yet - no matter if it seems like a complete farse.**
I will do what I can to save it. And I will do so, by trying to improve myself - not trying to change my spouse. Maybe I can become a person who is worthy of love by my spouse. Then, perhaps, my marriage can be resuscitated. I will only know if I try - and I only want to face God on Judgment Day, if I try.
He seemed to think I have an excellent case for an annulment. It was he that recommended that I speak to a divorce attorney.
However, he recommended it. He did not command me to do it. There is nothing in the canons that commands someone to seek a divorce, annulment, or separation. Ultimately, the decision to apply for any of these procedures boils down to the individuals involved.
And I have spent an inordinant amount of time in prayer and reflection, since I started this process.** I cannot give up on my marriage just yet - no matter if it seems like a complete farse.**
I will do what I can to save it. And I will do so, by trying to improve myself - not trying to change my spouse. Maybe I can become a person who is worthy of love by my spouse. Then, perhaps, my marriage can be resuscitated. I will only know if I try - and I only want to face God on Judgment Day, if I try.
S
savienu
Guest
Well, then, sir, you have my utmost respect and admiration. I can only hope that most of the husbands in this world are as faithful and devoted as you are. Please know you are in my prayers.
C
chevalier
Guest
I would like to add, however, that an invalid marriage does not obligate you to faithfulness - so sticking to an invalid marriage when you have been deserted is not necessarily the better option. And no, you wouldn’t be “forcing her hand” because it would always be her choice to file for divorce. Her actions are neither automatic nor involuntary and you bear no blame for her errors. I also think your marriage is likely invalid. And bear in mind that an invalid marriage is one that was invalid from the beginning, not one that people made invalid because it didn’t work. If your marriage is declared invalid, that means it never was a marriage to begin with. This is shocking to many people, who prefer sometimes to live alone in a divorced state than to accept this.
M
mrpathetic
Guest
Sorry, the 4th way that we can participate in another’s sin is through provocation. I will not provoke my wife to divorce me, because that would be sinful on my part. So I will not provoke her, by filing for separation or annulment.
So whether this marriage is valid or not, I will not provoke her to divorce me. Nor will I consent to it. If I receive divorce papers, I will simply refuse to sign them. (My lawyer tells me that if I do this, then the judge in the civil law courts will simply declare my marriage divorced. So it will have the same effect, but I will not consent to what happens.)
Nor will I be silent. I have told my wife countless times that I will not divorce her, and I do not accept the validity of divorce. Of course, she will likely ignore me, and file anyway. If she disregards what I tell her, then fine. But I will not be silent.
So whether this marriage is valid or not, I will not provoke her to divorce me. Nor will I consent to it. If I receive divorce papers, I will simply refuse to sign them. (My lawyer tells me that if I do this, then the judge in the civil law courts will simply declare my marriage divorced. So it will have the same effect, but I will not consent to what happens.)
Nor will I be silent. I have told my wife countless times that I will not divorce her, and I do not accept the validity of divorce. Of course, she will likely ignore me, and file anyway. If she disregards what I tell her, then fine. But I will not be silent.
C
chevalier
Guest
Only a valid marriage is sacramental and thus receives the protection from divorce. There is no sin whatsoever in “provoking” a divorce lawsuit by filing a nullity claim. If your wife acts like she does, the fault is entirely hers, not yours, and you do not sin by not bowing to blackmail or by not placating her. You need to shake off this control that she has over you.
J
Joseph_L_Varga
Guest
And, please, do not forget those people that depend on you! Do not forget your children! Also, do you have parents? Even if they are not old and weak now, there will come a time when they will need you! You simply cannot allow your wife to continue hurting you, because she will end up hurting everybody else by extension, everybody else who needs you and depends on you, including your children!
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