Sexual Denial, and Sin

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Both of my parents are deceased. My daughter is 17 and my son is 15. My daughter leaves for college this year, and my son in a couple of years. (Actually, I think my son would leave today, if he could.)

Soon, my wife and I will have the house all to ourselves… And I fully expect that she will show me the door. Give me the boot. Toss me out with the garbage.

After my children leave, there will be absolutely no reason for her to keep me around. So I will be disposed of, like a used piece of tissue paper.

But I will neither condone or support her actions. Nor will I force her to do this. If she takes this course of action, I will accept it.

In the meantime, I will do what I can to make myself a better Christian and husband. Maybe there is a chance she will keep me - God can work miracles. I trust myself to His mercy.
 
mrpathetic said:
Both of my parents are deceased. My daughter is 17 and my son is 15. My daughter leaves for college this year, and my son in a couple of years. (Actually, I think my son would leave today, if he could.)

Soon, my wife and I will have the house all to ourselves… And I fully expect that she will show me the door. Give me the boot. Toss me out with the garbage.

After my children leave, there will be absolutely no reason for her to keep me around. So I will be disposed of, like a used piece of tissue paper.

But I will neither condone or support her actions. Nor will I force her to do this. If she takes this course of action, I will accept it.

In the meantime, I will do what I can to make myself a better Christian and husband. Maybe there is a chance she will keep me - God can work miracles. I trust myself to His mercy.
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I will be praying for you and your wife.
 
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mrpathetic:
I will do what I can to save it. And I will do so, by trying to improve myself - not trying to change my spouse. Maybe I can become a person who is worthy of love by my spouse. Then, perhaps, my marriage can be resuscitated. I will only know if I try - and I only want to face God on Judgment Day, if I try.
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It’s fine trying to improve ourselves (many of us could do with some/a lot of improvement) but I think you’d be better off improving yourself for other reasons eg to become more the person God intended you to be, to be a better role model for your children.

If you re-read the thread I think you will find that there are a number of us who consider that you are already worthy of your wife’s love and are amazed that she cannot/will not admire your good qualities.
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mrpathetic:
Sorry, the 4th way that we can participate in another’s sin is through provocation. I will not provoke my wife to divorce me, because that would be sinful on my part. So I will not provoke her, by filing for separation or annulment.
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I believe that we have the right and responsibility to take care of our own soul. So does your wife. Even if you try to do nothing to provoke your wife to divorce you, you can’t be sure that some action of yours will not lead her to to this.

Also trying not to do anything to provoke your wife to divorce you will have you living on egg shells. Not good for your health which is already suffering so much because of her actions.
Joseph L Varga:
And, please, do not forget those people that depend on you! Do not forget your children! ………You simply cannot allow your wife to continue hurting you, because she will end up hurting everybody else by extension, everybody else who needs you and depends on you, including your children!
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I agree.
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mrpathetic:
After my children leave, there will be absolutely no reason for her to keep me around. So I will be disposed of, like a used piece of tissue paper.
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Don’t be too sure of this. She has things pretty good at the moment.
 
In her calculations, she will have it much better without me. She already has 2 incomes, without me. So she doesn’t really need me financially. And once I leave the home, she can openly begin living with her lesbian lover. I am convinced that they will both divorce their respective husbands, and move in together. Then I will be left out in the cold.

What could prevent this from occuring? It would take a miracle of God’s grace. That is what I anticipate. Because I have done just about everything within my power, to prevent this from happening.

And given the state of divorce laws in this country, I have almost no recourse. I live in a “no fault” divorce state. And my lawyer has informed me that when one spouse wants a divorce, there’s virtually nothing that other spouse can do to prevent it.
 
mrpathetic said:
What could prevent this from occuring? It would take a miracle of God’s grace. That is what I anticipate. Because I have done just about everything within my power, to prevent this from happening.
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I will pray for your intention, for a miracle of God’s grace in your marriage.
 
Forgive the perhaps naive advice of a teenager, but Mr. Sir(you aren’t pathetic), she is your wife. She does not ‘keep you’ or ‘throw you out’. You are a man, you are not a slave to her bidding. Your kids need you, they need you to be a man and step up and remove them from a situation that is harmful to them. You said your son would leave now if he could- why would that be? Because he is unhappy and the situation with his mother hurts him. If you civilly divorce your wife (you are still married to her, unless a tribunal rules otherwise) yet do not remarry or commit adultery, you have committed no sin, in fact you have done a great justice to your children and yourself.
 
Dear Mr. Estimable,

I hope that one of the things you are working on is self-confidence. You are made in the image and likeness of God, thus you are worthy of love, regardless of what your wife might think. Your wife has treated you like an object, and you talk about yourself as though you were an object.

(You refer to yourself as “being tossed out with the garbage,” “a used tissue,” etc. )

You cannot allow yourself to be treated like an object. You deserve to be treated with human dignity. Don’t allow yourself to be treated like your less than human. Because you are one of God’s most awesome creatures, you deserve to be treated with love and respect. It doesn’t matter if you feel like you are not attractive or somehow inadequate, God loves every part of you.
We are all inadequate and unattractive to some people, because people refuse to love the way God intended.

It takes great courage to leave a relationship that is mentally, emotionally, spiritually and physically detrimental to oneself. The easiest thing to do is to stay.

Keep working on your self-confidence and pray everyday for God’s will to be made known to you. I’ll keep you in my prayers.
 
muffinmojo said:
Forgive the perhaps naive advice of a teenager, but Mr. Sir(you aren’t pathetic), she is your wife. She does not ‘keep you’ or ‘throw you out’. You are a man, you are not a slave to her bidding. Your kids need you, they need you to be a man and step up and remove them from a situation that is harmful to them. You said your son would leave now if he could- why would that be? Because he is unhappy and the situation with his mother hurts him. If you civilly divorce your wife (you are still married to her, unless a tribunal rules otherwise) yet do not remarry or commit adultery, you have committed no sin, in fact you have done a great justice to your children and yourself.
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Regarding my son - he actually would probably leave today for reasons totally unrelated to his parent’s marriage. He thinks he is ready for adulthood - even though he is only 15. He is tired of the discipline and rigid rules that I have implement in our home. He wants to “go out into the world and become a man”.

Well, I don’t really blame him. I was the same way when I was 15. If someone had offered me the opportunity to pass a trial of manhood - such as walk over a bed of hot coals - I would have taken it.

My children understand how sadly dysfunctional their parents’ marriage is. I hope to guide them through adulthood, so that they do not repeat the same mistakes. I really just hope that I am here to do that.
 
mrpathetic said:
  1. I have never degraded, humiliated, or imposed on my wife, during sexual relations. Never. And in fact, when we have sexual relations, the focus was always on her needs, not mine. As in most matters, my wife is the one in complete control - not me.
  2. My wife does not respect me - not in the slightest. And she does not want to be “rescued”. She just wants to use and exploit me, in the same fashion as in the past 15 years. Her favorite expression is this: “you will provide me with the quality of life I have become accustomed to”. And as she has completely fallen away from the Church, I cannot use any Scriptual or spiritual arguments with her.
SoulRebel, I deeply appreciate your comments, and I am grateful for your alternate perspective. I am just not 100% sure that your understand the circumstances I am coming from. Perhaps we come from different cultures or nationalities or backgrounds. Maybe you don’t have to deal with the types of women such as my wife. Do you know any women who are simultaneously cruel, narcissistic, agnositc, and total unrepentant? That is what I have to come home to, every night.

Over the course of this post, I have come to a deep, profound understanding of my predicament. Christ give us each a cross to bear, and in my case, my cross is my wife. She loves being in love with me, but does not love me, and abuses and exploits me routinely. My wife is patently opposed to change. Our faith does not permit divorce, remarriage, adultery, or masturbation. Hence, unless my wife pre-deceases me, or there is some massive I have likely experienced the last sexual gratification, for the rest of my life. I need to find ways to come with this, and with prayer, support and counseling, I can find a way through. Perhaps this test of faith will strengthen me, and I will emere a better Christian, after 30-40 years of this. I can only hope.
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Dude, I have been reading this thread and I must say you have to get an annulment ASAP. Your wife is just plain cruel and forever set in her ways.
 
I understand and appreciate your sentiments, CatholicJimmy. And your advice mirrors that of my spiritual advisor, who is the deacon and pastoral assitant at my parish. He advised me to seek a civil divorce and annulment. In his opinion, I likely do not have a true, sacramental marriage, and therefore have a solid case for annulment.

I prayed and reflected on this, for several months, and I won’t do it. Why? Because ultimately, I do not see that course of action as God’s will. And what is sin, if it is not defiance of God’s will?

God wants me to honor my marriage vows, no matter if my wife will not honor them - and she won’t. God wants me to endure this trial of courage and perseverance. This is the ultimate test of my faith. I pray for His strength, so I can endure it.

What good will come of this? I don’t know. God knows, and His ways are mysterious. I trust in His mercy and judgment.

(Now, the decision may be removed from my hands. My wife still may file for divorce in 2 years, as she has often promised. I live in “no fault divorce land”, so if my wife files for divorce, I will have no choice but to accept it. But even then, I will likely not seek the annulment. I will live out the life of the eunuch, which is what the Gospel call for, for anyone who is not in the state of marriage.)
 
Hi mr p;

I’m sorry things have not improved, since I last read this thread. I admire your faith…it is inspiring. I wonder though, if you are allowing your own guilt of some prior sin (you mention that you weren’t always a ‘good husband’ is memory serves me correctly) to allow yourself to be tormented like this. That is not God’s will, to punish ourselves for sins that He has forgiven us of. I am just guessing, but you seem to be very downtrodden, and I must ask…do you forgive yourself for your past sins? If not, you really REALLY need to start there. It is actually ‘sinful,’ to not forgive ourselves, when God has. So, if you are somehow putting yourself through this torture, as a form of penance, that wouldn’t be God’s will, necessarily. I’m just not seeing how endless torment in a marriage, could be God’s will? I’m thinking more back to some of your prior posts, where you felt you weren’t that great of a husband to her, and so maybe you feel you deserve this in some way.

That being said, your wife’s homosexual tendencies are not of your doing. That is something deep within her, that she has to wrestle with.

I will keep praying for you.
 
whatevergirl said:
Hi mr p;

I’m sorry things have not improved, since I last read this thread. I admire your faith…it is inspiring. I wonder though, if you are allowing your own guilt of some prior sin (you mention that you weren’t always a ‘good husband’ is memory serves me correctly) to allow yourself to be tormented like this. That is not God’s will, to punish ourselves for sins that He has forgiven us of. I am just guessing, but you seem to be very downtrodden, and I must ask…do you forgive yourself for your past sins? If not, you really REALLY need to start there. It is actually ‘sinful,’ to not forgive ourselves, when God has. So, if you are somehow putting yourself through this torture, as a form of penance, that wouldn’t be God’s will, necessarily. I’m just not seeing how endless torment in a marriage, could be God’s will? I’m thinking more back to some of your prior posts, where you felt you weren’t that great of a husband to her, and so maybe you feel you deserve this in some way.

That being said, your wife’s homosexual tendencies are not of your doing. That is something deep within her, that she has to wrestle with.

I will keep praying for you.
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I have never committed any serious sin against marriage, such as adultery or spousal abuse. So no, I am not intentionally punishing myself for what anything I had done wrong. If I had committed those since, I would have confessed them, and moved on.

Now, have I been the greatest husband since Ward Cleaver? No! My wife’s chief complaint about our marriage has been my lack of passion, desire, spontaneity, and ability to excite her. She has often described me as a “cold fish”. And honestly, she is right. I really am a very boring person. And yes, I am rigid, doctrinaire, unyielding, stubborn, etc. (Think Tevya, from the classic play “FiddIer on the Roof.”) am not perfect, and hold no pretenses to be so.

But ultimately, my decision to stay in my marriage isn’t about me, or even about my wife. It is about God’s will - and whether I am willing to follow it.

Marriage is a sacred vocation. And a husband or wife is a minister to his or her spouse. That is what God called me to, all those years ago, when I married my wife. He is still calling me to that today. The path of a minister is tough - no one said the Lord’s path would be easy.
 
Hi,

I have been praying for you to see God’s will and follow it. If you feel that your decision to stay with your wife is God’s will, then I hope you find peace. I have remembered you at mass and Eucharistic Adoration. If you don’t mind, I will continue to pray for you to find peace in God’s love for you. Maybe if everyone prays hard enough, she will wake up and realize just how blest she is. Is there one particular aspect of your family life that you would like me to pray for?
 
Ok, I see. I wasn’t sure.

You know, ultimately, yes, we are call called to doing God’s will …sometimes, God’s will isn’t what we think it is, though. You are thinking that if your wife divorces you, it is God’s will that you never marry again…and that could be. But, I had a very wise older priest tell me many years ago, when I wouldn’t let go of something…that sometimes we need to let go of someone/something…in order to pursue God’s will. As long as we remain in bondage to whatever it is we remain in bondage to, we are not free to do what God wants us to. If you choose to not pursue the annulment path, that is your choice. But, the Church in Her Infinite Wisdom, would not offer something to us, that goes against God’s will or providence. That being said, yes, marriage is a vocation. But, it could be that your wife never really understood who she was marrying, or what marriage was to be. Or, if she was always struggling with homosexual tendencies, then how could she have entered into the marriage, freely and knowingly?

I just submit to you, that the energy you are spending on trying to please someone who doesn’t love you, frankly, could be spent on following a path that God has intended for you. Following Christ is not easy, that is true. I just pray that you keep an open mind to ALL that God has in store for you, and not limit it to suffering through a marriage. Following Christ should also bring us joy. I pray that you will find joy someday soon…whether with your wife, or without her.

Prayers to you–I do admire your courage as your wife’s husband to staying committed.
 
Oh, one more thing…I hope my posts are not coming across that I’m trying to talk you into leaving…etc. I always believe a marriage is a very sacred and personal vocation…so only you can decide.

I was merely pointing out for you to keep an open mind to God’s will for your life, and that it isn’t only for us to suffer. That’s all.

Your wife leaving you, (if she does) might open you up to following an entirely positive path that God wants you on, so if your marriage ends…don’t despair, is really more what I was trying to say. God doesn’t want to see His children suffer. We will suffer on this earth…and often, it makes little sense, but God takes our pain and uses it for good.

Praying.
 
Mr. Pathetic,

You need to get some counseling for your feelings in inadequacey. You need to get some courage and take charge of the situation. You are the head of the family. You act if your wife tossing you out is a foregone conclusion. Take back your marriage and life. Stand up to her and do not take her abuse anymore. Go for it Dude. Be the head of the family.
 
mesurman said:
Mr. Pathetic,

You need to get some counseling for your feelings in inadequacey. You need to get some courage and take charge of the situation. You are the head of the family. You act if your wife tossing you out is a foregone conclusion. Take back your marriage and life. Stand up to her and do not take her abuse anymore. Go for it Dude. Be the head of the family.
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I am receiving support from a Christian therapist and counselor in my area. So I already have this covered.

No, it is not a forgone conclusion that she will leave - but it is extremely likely. In fact, the scenarios under which she will not leave are not very promising. It is possible that one of us could become sick, unemployed, experience legal problems, etc. In that scenario, we may need to stay together, for practical reasons. But barring those types of circumstances, then in all probability, she will be gone within 2 years.

I will do what I can to salvage my marriage, and hopefully bring my wife back to the Faith. But I am completely realistic about the situation - it looks very, very grim.

I am trying to be more assertive with my wife. I read a book called Boundaries, by Cloud and Townsend. It is helping me to be more assertive. But it is very hard, when you have relented nearly 100% of your power to your spouse. You can only take it back gradually, which is what I am attempting to do.
 
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mrpathetic:
Nor, have I been the greatest husband since Ward Cleaver? No! My wife’s chief complaint about our marriage has been my lack of passion, desire, spontaneity, and ability to excite her. She has often described me as a “cold fish”. And honestly, she is right. I really am a very boring person. And yes, I am rigid, doctrinaire, unyielding, stubborn, etc. (Think Tevya, from the classic play “FiddIer on the Roof.”) am not perfect, and hold no pretenses to be so.
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And did she really think that saying these things would change your relationship and how things are between you. We are more likely to look at the need to change if we are told these things in a loving and non-condemnatory ways.

Also we can modify things but to expect anyone to have a total personality transplant is a myth.
Also it can be an effective tactic to tell the other person that all the problem is theirs. I am fine and everything would be fine if they changed to the way they want.

We should accept our part in bad or broken relationships and so should the other(s) involved. Things can’t improve until this happens.

Your wife’s descripion of you a “cold fish” and yours of yourself as a very boring person, rigid, doctrinaire, unyielding, stubborn may or not be curently true. But is that the real you? Do you think that you would have become the person you are if you had married someone who appreciated you more and treated you differently?

Also no-one else forced your wife to do some of the things she has done - like throw you out of the marital bed and take a (same-sex) lover. She choose to do so. Not you.
 
OP,

I just stumbled across this thread, so unlike many of the encouraging voices I’ve seen, I haven’t struggled along with you in this. But I will offer what advice I can, though I know you’ve had a large amount of it by now.

From what I have read, you have two predominant fears shackling you in your struggles, and both are fear related. The first, the lesser, is that you’re afraid of striking out on your own. You’ve said that you’ve chosen to live on borrowed time, and I must say I found that to be a really disappointing development. To my eyes, and you can correct me if I’m wrong, you aren’t willing to make the first move because of any concern for sinfulness, but because you want to cling to the life you have now. And the only reason you want to cling to it is because it is the one you know, rather than the one you haven’t yet faced. Yet the ultimate reality is that in a short period of time, you will have to face that new life, one way or another.

As for your desire to bring your wife back to the church, I must stress that at this point, that is entirely out of your hands. She has closed herself off to you; nothing from you now will change her mind. And that isn’t because the message is wrong, but because it comes from you. I think you realize this, too. At least, some of your posts seemed to have indicated you realize how futile the situation really is.

The second fear manifests in your concerns regarding sin, the sinfulness of being the one to trigger the divorce, whether by seeking an annulment now or provoking your wife into handing you the papers. While some might suggest this borders on scrupulosity, you have already spoken of why you harbor these fears. Your desire to avoid being like your father is so intense that you cannot bear to let yourself do anything that might be construed as being something your father would have done. I’m sorry, but your desire not to start the annulment process, nor to provoke your wife, is not born out of any desire to avoid sin. Concerns about sin are just a cover.

You have not ended your marriage. If you choose to start the process of separating from you wife, you are not culpable for ending marriage. Moreover, if you start the annulment process, that in itself is not ending a valid, sacramental marriage. In truth, it will either confirm that the marriage is valid, or it will conclude that it never existed in the first place. In the first case, you have affirmation that you should continue to dedicate yourself to making the marriage work. In the second case, you have affirmation that there is no injustice in departing from your abusive situation, that you are not culpable for leaving your wife, and that you can move on with your life and find someone new without committing any sin.

I would also ask you to consider why it is that the Catechism speaks of licit separation when the situation is truly abusive. For one, a separation does not end a sacramental marriage. Even civil divorce does not end sacramental marriage. Nothing can end such a marriage save death. Thus, when the situation is as hostile and toxic as you have mentioned yours is, separation in no way is a sinful act. Beyond that, even a civil divorce in order to square away equitable division of property and even custody of children is not sinful in this situation, provided that you understand that a civil divorce does not end a sacramental marriage.

(cont)
 
There are two things I would ask you to pray about. The first is whether you have the self-love that you need. While many flirt with and struggle with narcissism, you seem to struggle greatly with the appreciation that you are a human being worthy of dignity. This apparent lack of self-love might also be a factor trapping you in a situation you should leave from. Is this marriage a cross for you to bear? You have stated you view it as such, but I have reason to doubt it. For whose sake do you remain in the marriage? Is it for Christ’s sake? Is it for the sake of your children? Is it for the sake of your wife? Or is it, because of your fears and insecurities, for your own sake? As I said before, it seems that your motivation to remain in this marriage is because of fear, not out of any great consideration or love.

The second thing to pray about is whether or not you are meant to draw your wife back to the Church. It maybe that the best way to help your wife is to leave her and let her indulge herself in the greatest excesses of sin. Some people will not realize the error of their ways until all the safeties, all the supports that propped up their sins, are stripped away and they hit rock bottom. Consider this. Your wife has threatened you with divorce, but hasn’t yet gone through with the threat, though she promises that in two years time she will make good on her word. Why wait? If it is for the sake of getting the children out of the house, why is that? Does she need the financial support to see your son out of the house? Or is she using that as an excuse not to move forward? I’m psychoanalyzing here, but I think she subconsciously acknowledges that there are enormous problems with kicking you and having her lover move in, and she’s postponing the time until she feels more comfortable with the action. If you leave her now, it will strip away all the comforts and buttresses that permit her to behave as she is. If you leave her, she won’t have the excuse not to bring in her lover, and thus will have to find out just how committed she is to this affair. It may be that she will find herself on that descent to the bottom that ultimately will allow God’s grace to shine through to her.

One last thing. As a husband, you are called to die to your own needs in order to serve your wife. Reflect for a time what this means, especially with what your wife’s needs really are. What she needs is not what you have currently been providing her with, that is for certain. What are those needs, and how do you play any role in that regard? Again, I would argue that she actually needs you to remove all the crutches that are supporting her narcissistic, abusive, materialist behavior.

I apologize if I sounded harsh. To be perfectly honest, I agree with others who have voiced their admiration of your fidelity and self-sacrifice. However, I see reflected in your words many of my own weaknesses, and I felt obligated to point out problems that I feel have not been addressed in this thread.

My prayers are with you.

–Cairone
 
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