Sexual Denial, and Sin

[Galnextdoor]

Dear Mr. Estimable,

I refuse to use the derogatory handle you chose. If you really want to change and become the person God meant you to be, stop with the masochistic behavior of identifying and internalizing the negative. You are not an imbecile as you mentioned in an earlier post, nor are you “mistletoe”. If you want to have a pity party for yourself, limit it to 5 minutes a day. You don’t need to beat yourself up, your wife already does that for you.
Pick out the consoling things people have said here and use them to armer your heart. Then you should start reading some of JPII’s works like the Role of the Christian Family in the Modern World and Theology of the Body. Both talk about a man’s role in the world. You need to understand what God intended man to be.

You were made by God. God doesn’t make trash. Remember God said love your neighbor as your self. You can’t love anyone else until you stop hating yourself.

You need to accept yourself as God created you. You don’t need a personality transplant, you just need to be aware of the places where your personality is not allowing you to be the person you want to be. God created some people to be gentle and kind people. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. Don’t hate your nature or perceive it as less valuable than someone else’s.
God, however, did not create you to be a doormat. When your wife starts in on you, think about what advice you would give to someone in that exact situation. Then take that advice and use it on yourself.

Another thing. I know it’s scary to stand up to your children and wife when they demean you, but what can they do to you? Call you names? Say derogatory things about you? They already do that. So don’t be afraid to stand up and don’t be afraid to demand they treat you with the honor and dignity you deserve.

One last thing, find a man older than yourself who is a good Catholic man, good husband, good father, etc. Write down what makes him a good Catholic man, husband and father. (Don’t write down things about his personality i.e. he’s funny, outgoing, and doesn’t take himself seriously. Instead write down characteristics such as dependable, honorable, charitable, honest, or compassionate.) If you don’t feel like you have these characteristics, incorporate them into your life.

May the peace of Christ be with you.

 

[Tommiegirl06]

I highly recommend both you and your wife read the book, “Love & Respect” as well as deepen the lines of communication between you to. It is wrong for her to deny you this for so long.

 

[Ruthie]

Now she is totally dissatisfied with me - which probably explained why she fell into the arms of another person. (Well, in her case, another woman…)

Interestingly enough, DH told me that many of the women he was attracted to turned out to be lesbians. And I had one lesbian friend who told me that my “whole problem in life” was that I am “a lesbian in a hetero body.” There’s a lot of truth to that.

Were you attracted to your wife by her strength? There’s nothing wrong with that.

Did you *expect *to lean on her strength without being strong in return? Or did you just get tired of butting heads with her, and give up? The first is bad. The second is understandable. But she *may *have been hoping you’d win. (I finally learned that butting heads is the wrong way to go about it.)

You may have married someone who was fighting being a lesbian and trying to be straight. It happens. Or she may have turned to another woman because she thinks she’ll get what she needs, that she wasn’t getting from men. That happens too. Both are mistakes.

Or she may be trying to hurt you where it counts: in your masculinity. “You are so useless that a woman is better.” In which case, she is being cruel.

I reiterate what other posters have said. YOU ARE NOT PATHETIC. You need to get your hope back. And your self-respect. There may be no hope of mending this marriage, but there is plenty of hope of being a good father and role model for your kids.

Speaking of self-respect, are you sure you were being weak? Wasn’t there also a desire to please your wife, and sacrifice yourself for her? Those are *good *things, and she may have misinterpreted them as weakness.

Praying for you and your family,

Ruthie

 

[mrpathetic]

Were you attracted to your wife by her strength? There’s nothing wrong with that.

Did you *expect *to lean on her strength without being strong in return? Or did you just get tired of butting heads with her, and give up? The first is bad. The second is understandable. But she *may *have been hoping you’d win. (I finally learned that butting heads is the wrong way to go about it.)

You may have married someone who was fighting being a lesbian and trying to be straight. It happens. Or she may have turned to another woman because she thinks she’ll get what she needs, that she wasn’t getting from men. That happens too. Both are mistakes.

Or she may be trying to hurt you where it counts: in your masculinity. “You are so useless that a woman is better.” In which case, she is being cruel.

Was I attracted to her because of her strength? Probably at a subconscious level, yes. I wanted someone who was the opposite of my mother, who was very weak, co-dependant, and emotionally smothering. I was a “surrogate husband” to my mother, whose real husband was an alcoholic and deserter. So I wanted a spouse on the opposite end of the spectrum. And I now understand the phrase “Be careful what you wish for - you may actually get what you want.” **This is because the opposite end of the spectrum is cruel and heartless. ** As Dr. Glover says in his book, “The opposite of crazy is crazy”.

I really got tired of butting heads with her, especially on the issue of sex. I eventually gave up asking, because I was truly tired of being told “no”. I never really wanted her to become “the man in the house”. The situation simply evolved over time, where she assumed total control over everything - finances, living arranges, sexual relations, the rearing of our children, the works.

Yes, she is trying to hurt me, by undermining my masculinity. She constantly refers to me as a “soft little girly-man”, in front of our children, and even in public. Yes, it is deeply embarrassing and humiliating.

So the exercises from the “No More Mr. Nice Guy” book are helping the situation. I am trying to take establish some boundaries, and take back some control over my marriage and life.

 

[Ruthie]

I wanted someone who was the opposite of my mother, who was very weak, co-dependant, and emotionally smothering.

Funny about that… my mother was strong, independent - and emotionally smothering.

I forgot to say that I finally was healthy enough to meet “Mr. Right” when I was 43, so it wasn’t a quick process!

So the exercises from the “No More Mr. Nice Guy” book are helping the situation. I am trying to take establish some boundaries, and take back some control over my marriage and life.

Good for you. I’m in your corner, and will pray for you.

God bless you,

Ruthie

 

[mrpathetic]

Here are the results of this morning’s talk with my wife.

1. My wife stated emphatically that I will never be allowed back in our bedroom. Nor will she ever have sexual relations with me, again. She was quite clear in this regard. She says that it is too late for this - which makes no sense. We are both capable of having sexual relations - I am convinced that the problems lies no below the waist, but inside my wife’s head.
2. She is no longer a Christian, and will not participate in the Christian faith again. Period.
3. She will not attend the marriage counseling sessions that I have scheduled (and paid for), nor will she read any of the self-help books that I have purchased for her. In fact, she wants me to stop attending the sessions that I have already scheduled.
4. In 2 years, she intends on filing for divorce. She wants to live out her life, completely free of me. She intends on doing this, with or without my consent. We live in a no-default divorce state, so she can do this. I have told her that our faith does not permit divorce - she does not care. I have told her that this will be condemning me to a life of complete celibacy - she does not care.

(She claims that she wants to live a single, sexless life, for the rest of her life. I believe this last step is really a maneuver, so she can begin a long-term relationship with her lesbian lover.)

So that is the dictates and ultimatums that she is giving me. The situation looks complete untenable. I am afraid that the boundary-setting methods, and other techniques I have used from my counseling sessions, may have backfired.

I need your guidance and support, in these circumstances. And your prayers, please! Thank you.

 

[Urf]

I agree. But when I try to discuss these matters with my wife, she becomes extremely angry and unstable. She is constantly threatening me with throwing me out of the house.

There is a problem here. She is threatening to throw you out of YOUR house, and for some reason you cant see it that way.

 

[Galnextdoor]

Here are the results of this morning’s talk with my wife.

I have told her that our faith does not permit divorce - she does not care. I have told her that this will be condemning me to a life of complete celibacy - she does not care.

Your boundary setting techniques did not backfire. They just brought everything out into the open. Our religion allows divorce; it doesn’t allow for remarriage unless the first marriage was not valid.
From what you have stated on this forum, your marriage was not valid. It sounds to me like she used you to have kids and provide cover for her true desires. When she married you, part of the marriage agreement she signed was that she would raise the children Catholic. She has not fulfilled that part of the contract. She has also denied you your marriage rights, which is another part of the contract she has not fulfilled. These two things alone are grounds for annulment. Google your diocese to see if they have a page with grounds for annulment.

It looks like she had no intention of living a Catholic married life and raising the children as God would want them to be taught.

If I were you, I wouldn’t hang around taking her abuse until she decides it’s convenient for her to get a divorce.

 

[Salonika]

Galnextdoor:

Your boundary setting techniques did not backfire. They just brought everything out into the open.

Well put, Galnext door.

Also using Galnext door’s name for you, Mr Estimable, it mightn’t feel like it but you have more of the picture which helps your decision making.

Also keep in mind that your wife might also be trying to find out how far she can push you before you revert to old way of handling things. Suggest you talk over how to handle this with your counsellor.

Best wishes, Salonika

 

[happymommy]

Thanks to all of you for your supportive comments, and your prayers. Let me respond to some of your questions and comments"

“My guess is that there must be a reason your wife kicked you out of the bedroom. Do you know what this is?”

The reason why? She finds me weak, passive, inadequate, and unfulfilling. And she has told me so, on several occasions.
There’s a reason why I chose my screen name, MrPathetic . Because quite honestly, I have come to view myself as pathetic, as part of these experiences. My sense of self-worth and self-esteem is badly damaged.

“Have you spoken with a priest about this?”

I am meeting with a counselor in the near future. I live in an area with few priests, and in general, the marriage ministries
in our parish are carried out by lay counselors. The sole parish priest generally only gets involved when it reaches the annulment phase. I see my counselor for the first time on Monday. I will report back to you, once I have spoken with this person. I am hoping for the best.

“Communication is key to intimacy, not sex. You really need to work on communication, to build the trust she needs in order to
be emotionally intimate with you, before you even dream of getting back into the bedroom.”

I agree. But when I try to discuss these matters with my wife, she becomes extremely angry and unstable. She is constantly threatening me with throwing me out of the house. Essentially, she is content with the status quo. I work very hard to support my family, and In effect, I feel like a slave in my own marriage, and a stranger in my own home.

“Also, it would help if you thank her for the little things she does. Do you thank her when she cooks dinner or cleans the bathroom?”

I go one better. I actually help her at her work. She needs to work 2 full-time jobs, to support her extravagant lifestyle. I actually help her do one of the jobs that she insists that she has to work. I find that work deeply humiliating, but I do it anyway. Perhaps that’s part of the problem. Perhaps I am enabling some of her selfish behaviors. But if I refuse to help her, she becomes extremely angry, and she can be very cruel and vindictive.

“Your wife is either highly self-absorbed or very emotionally disturbed.”

I think it is really a combination of both. She is extremely materialistic. She long ago stopped being active in the Church.
To be quite honest, I think she worships the god of mannon. I have tried to lead my wife back to the way of the Church.
I ask her to come with me to worship on Sundays, and she refuses. She maybe attends Mass once a year, on Christmas or Easter. I have asked her to help with my ministerial work in the past. She will normally respond with some cruel comment,
such as telling me to make more money, or to “volunteer to do more chores.”

Ultimately, I think I have failed my wife, in my vocational responsibility, to lead her to God. I understand that this is at the core of the Sacrament of Marriage, and in this responsibility, I have failed badly.

"Have you tried to discuss with your wife why she refuses to be intimate with you? Is it because she doesn’t want anymore children? "

My wife had a hysterectomy several years ago. Normally, I would use this as the explanation for this behavior. This would make sense. But she started this behavior, and this denial of sex, for nearly a decade before the operation. So this is not the full explanation. There are larger issues at play here.

Ultimately, what I think it boils down to is this: she loves being married to me, but does not love me. A part of me still loves her, despite the years of mental abuse, cruelty, and humiliation. Perhaps a counselor or psychotherapist would diagnose this as co-dependance, or some other disorder. I don’t know, because this is not my area of expertise. But I have got to do something about this, because it is making my life unbearable. So I appreciate all of your guidance and support.

You need to understand that she is the one who is wrong, not you. I don’t know how you have stayed! God bless you.
I would not give her another penny towards her life style. She wants all of those things, let her work for them, she can’t afford them, too bad.
Please stand up for yourself! Who pays the mortgage? If it is you then I say you get the master bedroom. You haven’t done anything wrong to be thrown out of your own room. Let her move into another room if this is how she wants to live.
I would put my foot down. She thinks you are weak. Prove her wrong. Let her know that you will not take any more of her abuse! If she doesn’t like it, let her leave.
I know I sound mean and harsh, but you have wasted so much time being treated so badly. As much as God and the Church value marriage, and I think you should be proud of your belief in the union, neither of them want you to live your life like this.
She is using you and it’s time for you to make her stop! I can’t imagine this is helping your relationship with your children. How do they feel about this?
I dated a guy in high school, for almost two years. His parents were “separated” but still living in the same house. They hadn’t filed any paper work to begin the divorce, because they wanted to wait until all of the kids were out of the house. His dad slept on the couch, and with a number of women. They had been living this way for 7 years when I came into the picture.
It was so confusing and embarring for him. The family suffered so much because of their lack of respect for each other and the union of marriage. They didn’t get divorced until he graduated high school. I know how much hurt this kid went through. It ruined our relationship too, because I couldn’t stand the confusion in that home anymore. Those kids deserved more from their parents then what they got. Please talk to your Priest and get help!

 

[Vulneris]

God bless you for staying in a dead marriage with an obviously hateful and disturbed woman.

 

[iamrefreshed]

Mr. P,

Why wait the two years? Why let yourself be abused?

Why continue to teach your children these bad lessons on marriage?

Seek a divorce and annullment today.

You are not bearing your cross, you are allowing yourself to be abused. This is a terrible lesson to teach your children.

 

[joecoolcat]

Dude,

If you live in the United States, call the cops next time she starts hollering at you. Stop being a doormat and get therapy for yourself. Extracting yourself from the situation probably wouldn’t hurt any more than the emotional abuse does. You’ll take years to recover from this, and your children already know how much of a beast your wife can be. It’s not safe.

I pray that you realize these basic things need to be taken care of.

• Joe

 

[Kepha15]

Here are the results of this morning’s talk with my wife.

1. My wife stated emphatically that I will never be allowed back in our bedroom. Nor will she ever have sexual relations with me, again. She was quite clear in this regard. She says that it is too late for this - which makes no sense. We are both capable of having sexual relations - I am convinced that the problems lies no below the waist, but inside my wife’s head.
2. She is no longer a Christian, and will not participate in the Christian faith again. Period.
3. She will not attend the marriage counseling sessions that I have scheduled (and paid for), nor will she read any of the self-help books that I have purchased for her. In fact, she wants me to stop attending the sessions that I have already scheduled.
4. In 2 years, she intends on filing for divorce. She wants to live out her life, completely free of me. She intends on doing this, with or without my consent. We live in a no-default divorce state, so she can do this. I have told her that our faith does not permit divorce - she does not care. I have told her that this will be condemning me to a life of complete celibacy - she does not care.

(She claims that she wants to live a single, sexless life, for the rest of her life. I believe this last step is really a maneuver, so she can begin a long-term relationship with her lesbian lover.)

So that is the dictates and ultimatums that she is giving me. The situation looks complete untenable. I am afraid that the boundary-setting methods, and other techniques I have used from my counseling sessions, may have backfired.

I need your guidance and support, in these circumstances. And your prayers, please! Thank you.

Despite what your wife says, you are far stronger than she is, for the simple fact that you are willing to live for the principles you vowed, no matter what. That doesn’t imply weakness, that implies strength that only God can give. You are willing to live a life of complete chastity rather than violate your marriage vows to a woman who obviously does not love you. You are truly a rock and an inspiration to us all.

That said, for your own sanity, you need to confront her about the book you found. Call her out on it and ask her if she has been cheating on you with other women. And be prepared that the answer is likely yes. Stand up for yourself. Force your way back into YOUR bedroom, and stay there no matter what she says. If she’s given you these ultimatums, you’ve got nothing to lose. At the very least, make her respect you insofar as you respect yourself. She might call you a “girly-man,” but if you’re putting your foot down, those words mean nothing. You need your children to see that your wife cannot get away with controlling you like this. You don’t want them to fall into either role. It’s OK to fight back when your wife “embarrasses” you…in fact, you should. Don’t succumb to cheap shots, of course, but by all means, fight back. Argue. Yell. Defend yourself. Take back what is rightfully yours. Demand the respect she won’t give you. Bottom line, don’t let her push you around. Things can’t get any worse.

If she threatens to divorce you because of it, tell her very plainly that she can either take you or leave you as you are. Don’t say you agree that you should get a divorce, but tell her that if she wants to end it, that’s her decision, and you’re not going to continue to submit to her. If there’s one decision you should continue to leave completely to her, it’s that one. And if she does decide to divorce you, you can’t beat yourself up over that decision. Explain to your (hopefully Catholic) children the situation, and why your wife is in the wrong. They are old enough to deserve the truth… about everything.

And finally, if she does leave you, seek an annulment. The worst that could happen is that the Church says no. And chances are, if she’s a lesbian, an annulment is not that far-fetched.

I’ll pray for you to stay strong, keep the faith and stand up for yourself, your children and the Word of God.

 

[mrpathetic]

Here is the latest update on my situation. My other thread, “Marriage is Misery - bottom line” - was forcibly closed. I think I said something in that thread, to anger the administrators, so they shut it off. Somehow, they interpreted my statements as suicidal (which I am not.) Here is that thread:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=286458

Yes, I did try to take back my bedroom, as one of the previous posters in this thread suggested. No, that did not have the desired effect. In fact, it had the opposite effect. My wife is even more angry with me than before.** I now sleep on a couch, in the family room of my own home. ** I am learning the fine art, of how to make a couch comfortable enough to sleep on.

I continue to sink more effort into this failed marriage. It is like trying to bail out the sinking Titanic with nothing but a Sham-Wow towel.

The latest method I am using is the “Love Dare” approach. This method was popularized by the “Fireproof” movie that was released earlier this year., This was recommended to me by my marriage counselor (whom my wife still refuses to see.) It is not having much effect so far. It is a 40-day program, and I am only about 20% complete with it, so far. I will see what happens with this approach.** Perhaps God can work a miracle. **

I have seen the clergy in my parish.Their recommendation: 1) my marriage is dead; 2) I have solid grounds for annulment; 3) I need to preserve my own faith life, at all costs; 4) ultimately, I must do what is best for the faith life of my children, as well.

I will see a family lawyer next week. I am not ready to file for divorce yet. But I am convinced my wife is. If I am served papers, I will ask for my lawyer to have a response.

That is my update. More information soon…

Thank you all for your prayers and support.

 

[Galnextdoor]

Dear Mr. Estimable,

It was nice that you gave an update. I just wanted you to know I have been praying for you.
It seems like you are getting stronger and making progress in your decisions. I know that you are trying to do the will of God. I will keep praying that the Holy Spirit will fill you with the wisdom you need for discerning the right path.
Take care.

 

[Robert_W_of_AL]

This is for the person who calls himself Pathetic.

You are not. You are also not spiritually married. You may have paperwork, that’s it. If I understand right, your wife has a lesbian lover- That is fine, God gave us free will. I’d use my free will to invite her to leave. You live in your home, she left your home.

My opinion is that you should have never left the bedroom. You should have invited her to leave. She would have if you stood your ground. Now you are in your home. You should invite her to leave. I read the scriptures- you have legitimate cause for divorce in the legalistic sense of the scriptures. From my interpretation of marriage, and my own similar experiences with a wife who did not want to have sex, you ARE NOT IN A SPIRITUAL MARRIAGE. Mine changed when I changed the dynamic. Invite her to get better or leave. Tell her you are willing to live with or without her but no longer with her, as if you were married. All you have is paperwork-

My wife and I were in the same boat, now we have what is sufficient to be called a marriage. This is harmful to you and I’m sure you are participating in compulsive behaviors to survive. I did. Get help for yourself, get honest with yourself, talk to counsellors, priests and pray for God to send someone into your life (NOT A WOMAN!) to help show you the way out of this mess.

God Bless Man- Get on with it before you become addicted to something like your wife is. You cannot survive like this. Sorry so forward- I’m a convert… with experience in this area. I also help others stand up with my free time. When you pray and ask God for help, then take your stand in your marriag and your home with him at your side- Satan will always flee- He’ll take your cohabitant with him probably- or what’s better she will get well.

god bless

 

[Robert_W_of_AL]

Sorry I don’t like to give advise but in our case- unless you become physically endangered… Take your bed back. Get the ____ off the couch and stop being a victim. Victims create more victims and you are teaching your kids bad lessons (it’s the gift that keeps on giving). Take action and teach them to be strong like Jesus. He drove the money changers out of his fathers house.
When you got married, you established your father’s house. You are the priest of your home and now sin is ruling it.

This “occupation” your wife is carrying out is an evil thing… which brings me back to the danger angle.

If you are in danger- stay on the couch and get the paperwork done ASAP!!! Your priests told you this already. My opinion is that at some point, you have been “told better” yourself and then you know the spiritual truth about hte situation. At that point, you know and once you know… you have to consider that you are living in the sin, the sin of omission, of fear and of insecurity of change- holding onto what is not yours. Once you know you know. Take the temple back- drive out the money-changers by going back to bed.

Again, if you are fearful of harm- then stay on the couch and move out- but your kids will benefit by seeing a man become strong and trust God if you can do so without losing you life.

You are only holding onto something Satan is benefiting from. This is damaging you and your children. It is also damaging her- rewarding her for her behavior.

Pray, take the bed back and she will flee. (i bet) My prayers are with you brother. SERIOUSLY! I’m praying for this horrible situation to resolve- with you standing with God. God bless. I hope I’m not on the wrong side here. I believe I am right. this is so bad brother- don’t give up.

 

[Salonika]

Gal:

Dear Mr. Estimable,

It was nice that you gave an update. I just wanted you to know I have been praying for you.
It seems like you are getting stronger and making progress in your decisions. I know that you are trying to do the will of God. I will keep praying that the Holy Spirit will fill you with the wisdom you need for discerning the right path.
Take care.

I am also very pleased that you have given us an update.

I was concerned about you until I found your posts on the thread that has now been closed down (missed that happening as I was away from computer access for a while).

I also think you are getting stronger and making progress in your decisions.

Please give yourself a pat on the back for the progress you are making and see your journey as often involving some steps foward, some back and then going forward again.

Best wishes

Salonika

 

[mrpathetic]

This is harmful to you and I’m sure you are participating in compulsive behaviors to survive.

god bless

Actually, no. I have intentionally stayed away from anything even remotely close to compulsive or addictive. I do not use drugs or tobacco, and I drink alcohol only occasionally. I do not gamble or spend excessive amounts of money. And I could afford to lose a few LBs, like most middle-aged men, but I do not consider myself a compulsive eater.

My father, mother, and sister all had (or have) some form of substance-abuse problem. My father drank himself to death. My mother was addicted to Oxycontin pills, while she was dying in the nursing home. And my sister is presently a drug user, living in a small town in Idaho. So addictive behaviors have taken an enormous toll, on all the members of my family of origin. That is why I have consciously tried to avoid them, throughout my adult life.

How have I survived all these years in these circumstances? Prayer. I pray every Sunday, before high mass, for God to open my wife’s heart. It never happens, but that doesn’t mean that it won’t happen tomorrow. Or the next day. Or next year.

So I keep praying and praying. I just pray that God someday answers my prayers.