Sexual Denial, and Sin

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I think you have gotten yourself so emotionally wrapped up in this dilemma that you are afraid of ending your marriage simply because the drama will stop and you will have nothing else to do.

Please heed the advice you are getting from your priest and therapist.

I think you may be committing a sin staying in this situation because you are being self indulgent in your sorrow. You are also preventing yourself from reaching your potential as a Christian in this world by remaining a hostage to this woman.

I mean no disrespect, it just seems like one of those situations where someone needs to slap some sense into a person. There have been many times in my life that I wish someone had smacked me too.
I agree 100% with this poster.

OP, I have met two men in almost identical situations to yours. One even stayed with his wife even AFTER her lover moved into their home. He worked two jobs, turned his paychecks over to them every week, kept the house clean and cooked for them “because he wanted to stay faithful to his vows”. I hope the idea of this disgusts you enough to shock you to your senses.

Your priest understands the situation and has told you CLEARLY that you have grounds for annulment and that there is NO SIN in leaving and pursuing legal divorce. Do not assume you know better! Get multiple priestly opinions if you like and consult a canon lawyer, but I’m sure they will all tell you the same thing. Church law outweighs your gut feeling. Your children need you … do not teach them to be a victim of this sort of abuse.

I pray that you have the courage to act.
 
But I am using the techniques from the “Boundaries” book, and they are having effects. Predictably, my wife is resisting the boundary-setting approach. She is used to having complete control, and now I am using the boundaries method to take some of it back. At a minimum, I would like a boundary to my wife’s exploitation of me, and her humiliating abuse - especially when it takes places in front of our children.
Your wife may have what is known as Borderline Personality Disorder, and there is support for their family (non-borderlines) at bpdcentral.com/support/email.shtml

i had never heard of this disorder, but some of the stories and descriptions of “rages” could be almost word-for-word out of my own experience.

``Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,
Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.’’ [Ephesians 3:20-21]
 
I haven’t read anything about you having forgiven your parents, or praying for the ability to fully forgive them. Have you done this? It might be so much easier to receive God’s will after forgiving each of your parents, and yourself (as someone mentioned).
I have forgiven them, on a conscious level. But subconsciously, I still harbor deep resentments towards my father, in particular.

Understand this: I never really said goodbye to my father. When he committed suicide, he was several hundred miles away, attending college. I hadn’t seen him for years. After my parent’s divorce, he checked out of my life entirely. He remarried (outside the church, of course), and basicly drank himself into an early grave. One night, he sat on the hood of his car, put a pistol under his chin, and pulled the trigger…

After his death, his second wife refused to let me, or anyone else in my family, come to the wake or funeral. So it is like he just disappeared…

I last visited his gravesite 20 years ago. No one goes there now. His wives are both dead, and I live thousands of miles away, as does my sister. He is abandoned in death, as he abandoned his family in life.

And what of his immortal soul? We all know our Church’s teaching on suicide. It is the one mortal sin from which there can be no reconciliation. Could there be some mitigating circumstance, because of my father’s alcoholism? I don’t know. I have had conflicting opinions on this in the past, when I have posed that question.

I think that is what is driving much of my fear, to stay in my current circumstances. As much as I fear divorce, lonliness, failure - I fear abandonment.
 
YOU ARE NOT A FAILURE! You got gypped in the cards of life. A good friend of mine had a rocky marriage about two years into it, he became unfaithful, and there was the email to friends that stated in the subject line: I’M A FAILURE. It was not my cross to bear, but my blood was boiling! I was so angry on her behalf. I was thinking all these vengeful things, but thought I have to calm down, it’s not my deal, and I have to support my friend, and defend the defenseless. I happen to have an amazing memory, so I helped her recall all the steps of their marriage that were not her fault, she became stronger, better put together, and focused, now for the last year, he needs her back, yes he NEEDS her, he makes a ton of money, he cant figure out his finances, when they were together, there was order, there was comfort ability, and he took his selfishness into inappropriate actions and kept pushing the envelope. Threatening this and that, demanding things of her, showing her a lesson. He knows now that he was the failure, he gave up, he thought people were expendable, and he could not work through the problems. Running into a brick wall happens to everyone, THOSE are the crosses that God gives us, but not this, this is pretty blatant of her and actions speak louder than words, her actions have misled you and most of all, she has slighted God for life. You and your children are safer under your care. Trust me, I would have loved to have a dad like you. When my parents split, I still needed one, even though I had my uncle, I prayed to God every night because I needed a father figure in my life, and I prayed to God and I prayed to Jesus because God knows what is in our hearts, he knows what is in your heart. Let him guide you and let the BVM help you and your kids through Jesus name.

Life is not hard to figure out. It is of the very essence of innocence and struggle that we march on. Worry about your kids and yourself, that’s what my mom did. She is a happy healthy single/widowed woman in her sixties, and her kids are doing great even against all the odds that society pours over children of divorce. There was finally peace at home and no awkwardness, we made more friends and were more active with church and community, still using our bodies as service vessels. I pray for your focus in this. You will be fine, keep on course, and give us updates. We want to help you any way we can.

May God bless and keep you!
-Hope
 
It’s clear that you follow your own conscience and really work hard to make sure your conscience is properly formed; the only thing I’d presume to warn you about is that people who suffer from perfectionism seem to be prone to scrupulosity, so it would be really prudent to do reality checks with your confessor every so often. Just a thought.
I worry about scrupulosity, too. I do sometimes find myself confessing the same sins. Most of my trips to the confessional revolve around failures in my marital life. I am worried that I am becoming obsessed with this.

The Redemptorist Fathers run a website devoted to scrupulosity, and recovery from it.

mission.liguori.org/newsletters/scrupulosity.htm

I have found it helpful, in coping with this problem. I have enough issues in my life already.
 
I have forgiven them, on a conscious level. But subconsciously, I still harbor deep resentments towards my father, in particular.

Understand this: I never really said goodbye to my father. When he committed suicide, he was several hundred miles away, attending college. I hadn’t seen him for years. After my parent’s divorce, he checked out of my life entirely. He remarried (outside the church, of course), and basicly drank himself into an early grave. One night, he sat on the hood of his car, put a pistol under his chin, and pulled the trigger…

After his death, his second wife refused to let me, or anyone else in my family, come to the wake or funeral. So it is like he just disappeared…

I last visited his gravesite 20 years ago. No one goes there now. His wives are both dead, and I live thousands of miles away, as does my sister. He is abandoned in death, as he abandoned his family in life.

And what of his immortal soul? We all know our Church’s teaching on suicide. It is the one mortal sin from which there can be no reconciliation. Could there be some mitigating circumstance, because of my father’s alcoholism? I don’t know. I have had conflicting opinions on this in the past, when I have posed that question.

I think that is what is driving much of my fear, to stay in my current circumstances. As much as I fear divorce, lonliness, failure - I fear abandonment.
Oh, how awful! Your father was enslaved by his alcoholism, and his children’s children still suffer from the consequences.

Given that awareness of the mortal nature of a sin and free choice to commit the sin despite that awareness are both key factors in determining culpability, I think there’s reasonable hope for your father’s immortal soul. Alcoholism is a devastating addiction and can certainly impair judgment and decision-making.

My own father worked long hours - that’s how he was raised - but he did love his family. Sadly, he died when I was very young, at an age when children view bereavement as personal punishment. Young children experience the loss (or, probably, unavailability) of a loved one as abandonment. They believe that they have done something so bad that the person who died left them deliberately.

As adults, we know this is not the case; it just seems to be how children experience the world at different stages in their mental and emotional growth. Nonetheless, the feelings of abandonment are very real. I can look back at my own behavior through childhood and young adulthood and see how much of it was driven by fear of abandonment - by friends, by family, by boyfriends, by anyone.

You seem to be working hard to find your through the old pain, heal your wounds, and know peace. (Thanks for the link about scrupulosity, by the way.) Keep your chin up; what you’ve been doing takes true grit, which you obviously have. You’ll get there!

Peace-
-mdr
 
Hello, again. Thanks to all of you who have given me advice on this topic. Your insights are most appreciative.

I now think that I have successfully salvaged my marriage, and I have overcome my sexual desires. (I still have them, but I have managed to control them, and keep them fully suppressed.) Once I liberated myself of these desires, my pressures on myself - and my wife - eased significantly.

My marriage isn’t necessarily happy or affectionate, but it is stable - and I don’t see us headed to divorce court. And I credit this to one thing, and one thing only - **my acceptance of full continence. **

================================================================

I strongly recommend anyone who has these type of struggles, to read this article:

chastitysf.com/sexuality.htm

It lists one of the revelations from our Lord to Venerable Anne Catherine Emmerich. (She is the famous German mystic, whose writings were used by Mel Gibson in the “Passion of the Christ” movie.)

She describes a couple, who approached our Lord, and asked if they could remain in continence. He gave them His full consent and blessing.

This has been a true inspiration to me. And indeed, this story has helped me pass through the past couple of months.

This is much better advice, than anything I received from the marriage counselors that I talked to, or the “self-help” authors I read. Indeed, compared to Emmerich, those “experts” seem like a bunch of quacks… :mad:

=============================================================

I now accept full continence, for life. Maybe some of your are being called to this, even if you are married. If so, do not be afraid to live this life. I truly believe it is righteous, in the eyes of the Lord.

May the Peace of Christ be with you, in this Easter Season.
 
Has your wife accepted full chastity and continence, too? Has she promised and made a credible effort to break off her sinful involvement with the other woman? How is she doing now?

I have been praying and continue to pray for your family, Mr Estimable.

I enjoy your posts in the forums, they are insightful and witty (not cold fish, I don’t think so at all).

Have a blessed Easter and Feast of Divine Mercy.
 
Has your wife accepted full chastity and continence, too? Has she promised and made a credible effort to break off her sinful involvement with the other woman?
Not likely. I did find a love letter from my wife’s lover to her, a while back. In the letter, the “other woman” refers to my wife as her “soulmate”… Well, that was a disgusting experience! :hypno:

That being said, I have come to grips with the situation. I have fully forgiven my wife for whatever she has done, and will do in the future.

My pennance for Lent was to stop being bitter about my wife. Now that Lent is over, I plan on continuing this pennance. I realize that this bitterness was damaging me, more than it was damaging her. In fact, it was doing no one any good.

Here is what I am committed to: I will change, even if my wife does not. I will put an end to my sexual desires, and adopt full continence, even if my wife will not. I will do this, even if my wife is unfaithful to me, abandons the faith, files for divorce, flies to the moon - whatever.

I am responsible for my own behavior, not her. And she is responsible for her behavior, not me. Once I realized this, and came to live by these words, my marriage - and my life - became a lot simpler.

I will set the best example possible, for my wife and children. I will embody chastity, obedience, piety, self-denial, and above all else, humility. If they chose to follow, then so be it. If they do not - ultimately, the Lord will judge them, and all of us.
 
I am responsible for my own behavior, not her. And she is responsible for her behavior, not me. Once I realized this, and came to live by these words, my marriage - and my life - became a lot simpler.

I will set the best example possible, for my wife and children. I will embody chastity, obedience, piety, self-denial, and above all else, humility. If they chose to follow, then so be it. If they do not - ultimately, the Lord will judge them, and all of us.
Wow. Christ is shining through you. You are accepting a heavy cross, and clearly receiving graces from God to help you carry it. Thank you for blessing us with this update.
 
Not likely. I did find a love letter from my wife’s lover to her, a while back. In the letter, the “other woman” refers to my wife as her “soulmate”… Well, that was a disgusting experience! :hypno:

That being said, I have come to grips with the situation. I have fully forgiven my wife for whatever she has done, and will do in the future.

My pennance for Lent was to stop being bitter about my wife. Now that Lent is over, I plan on continuing this pennance. I realize that this bitterness was damaging me, more than it was damaging her. In fact, it was doing no one any good.

Here is what I am committed to: I will change, even if my wife does not. I will put an end to my sexual desires, and adopt full continence, even if my wife will not. I will do this, even if my wife is unfaithful to me, abandons the faith, files for divorce, flies to the moon - whatever.

I am responsible for my own behavior, not her. And she is responsible for her behavior, not me. Once I realized this, and came to live by these words, my marriage - and my life - became a lot simpler.

I will set the best example possible, for my wife and children. I will embody chastity, obedience, piety, self-denial, and above all else, humility. If they chose to follow, then so be it. If they do not - ultimately, the Lord will judge them, and all of us.
Dude,

You need to get out of this situation. Let me get this straight, your wife had a lesbian affair, hasn’t slept with you for fourteen years etc… Get out and move on. You have enough reason for divorce and annulment. God Bless.
 
Not likely. I did find a love letter from my wife’s lover to her, a while back. In the letter, the “other woman” refers to my wife as her “soulmate”… Well, that was a disgusting experience! :hypno:

That being said, I have come to grips with the situation. I have fully forgiven my wife for whatever she has done, and will do in the future.

My pennance for Lent was to stop being bitter about my wife. Now that Lent is over, I plan on continuing this pennance. I realize that this bitterness was damaging me, more than it was damaging her. In fact, it was doing no one any good.

Here is what I am committed to: I will change, even if my wife does not. I will put an end to my sexual desires, and adopt full continence, even if my wife will not. I will do this, even if my wife is unfaithful to me, abandons the faith, files for divorce, flies to the moon - whatever.

I am responsible for my own behavior, not her. And she is responsible for her behavior, not me. Once I realized this, and came to live by these words, my marriage - and my life - became a lot simpler.

I will set the best example possible, for my wife and children. I will embody chastity, obedience, piety, self-denial, and above all else, humility. If they chose to follow, then so be it. If they do not - ultimately, the Lord will judge them, and all of us.
Wow… so this is what saint fracis meant when he said, “Not so much to be loved as to love.” Your very blessed to have such a heart.

Your story reminded me of Hosea. I imagine that when all the people asked Hosea, “how could you love such a woman who treats you this way” Hosea must have said, “That is a good question. For I often wonder how God could love a people like us.”

It sounds like you are being put in a situation where you can express pure agape Love.
Based on what you have said, I would encourage you to find more passion in life and fill your days with joy.
 
Based on what you have said, I would encourage you to find more passion in life and fill your days with joy.
I can live my life in total faith. I give the full ascent of faith to the Lord, and the Church He founded. I accept fully the teachings of the Catholic faith. I believe in 100% of it - even the parts that are inconvenient, or hard to understand.

And I can express my love through the action of Christian charity. I strive to perform more acts of charity every day. I will spend the bulk of the day tomorrow on ministry efforts in my Diocese.

But Joy? No. I feel very little joy. I know that I should, at a conscious level. I know Christ has redeemed all of us, and that, in and of itself, should give me joy. I have much in my life to be thankful for, and I certainly have many blessings that others don’t.

But I feel nothing that even comes close to joy. There is a deep sadness, somewhere in the pit of my soul. No matter what I do, I cannot find the source of it.

I suspect that it is the lack of a sex life. Whenever I think of my poor sex life, it fills me with great pain. When I see an image of lovers, it fills me with sorrow. I can’t even look at members of the opposite sex anymore; instead of feel lust or desire, what I feel is sadness.

I have come to grips with it, and I have tried to move on with my life. I realize now, that this pain will only be removed from me in the next life, not the present one. So I will bear it, so that some day, I can present it to Jesus, since He gave it to me.
 
But Joy? No. I feel very little joy. I know that I should, at a conscious level. I know Christ has redeemed all of us, and that, in and of itself, should give me joy. I have much in my life to be thankful for, and I certainly have many blessings that others don’t.

But I feel nothing that even comes close to joy. There is a deep sadness, somewhere in the pit of my soul. No matter what I do, I cannot find the source of it.

I suspect that it is the lack of a sex life. Whenever I think of my poor sex life, it fills me with great pain. When I see an image of lovers, it fills me with sorrow. I can’t even look at members of the opposite sex anymore; instead of feel lust or desire, what I feel is sadness.

I have come to grips with it, and I have tried to move on with my life. I realize now, that this pain will only be removed from me in the next life, not the present one. So I will bear it, so that some day, I can present it to Jesus, since He gave it to me.
Yeah, this is the messae I got from your prior post. I thought… wow… what faith… what commitment… what sacrifice… what Love but I didnt get the feeling there was much joy.

I would recommend you meditate on your salvation more and more. Spend each day acknowledging the gift of life and the salvation from spiritual death which God has bestowed upon us.
Phil Whickham has a wonderful song in which he describes this beuty of our life and faith:
youtube.com/watch?v=Zg4cYdP1ngw

"I see Your face in every sunrise
The colors of the morning are inside Your eyes
The world awakens in the light of the day
I look up to the sky and say
You’re beautiful

I see Your power in the moonlit night
Where planets are in motion and galaxies are bright
We are amazed in the light of the stars
It’s all proclaiming who you are
You’re beautiful

I see you there hanging on a tree
You bled and then you died and then you rose again for me
Now you are sitting on Your heavenly throne
Soon we will be coming home
You’re beautiful"

Perhaps in this, you can fill your life with incredible joy just waking up and realizing that that first breath you took that day was undeserved. Everything in life becomes a surprise. One of the best gifts we can receive is the gift of surprise and gratitude. To live life like a child on Christmas eve.

Chesterton says: “And the strongest emotion was that life was as precious as it was puzzling. It was an ecstacy because it was an adventure; it was an adventure because it was an opportunity. The goodness of the fairy tale was not affected by the fact that there might be more dragons than princesses; it was good to be in a fairy tale. The test of all happiness is gratitude; and I felt grateful, though I hardly knew to whom. Children are grateful when Santa Claus puts in their stockings gifts of toys or sweets. Could I not be grateful to Santa Claus when he put in my stockings the gift of two miraculous legs? We thank people for birthday presents of cigars and slippers. Can I thank no one for the birthday present of birth?”

Your life with your wife sounds very difficult so perhaps it sounds self righteous for me to say the things that I am saying. And I am sure you thank God everyday for the countless blessings. I would just encourage you to examine your own gratitude and think exactly why you are grateful for this or that? So if you say… “thank you for this day” you might mediate on why you are thankful. What is so wonderful about waking up? On the great gift it is that God allowed us to live. As chesterton says, the purpose of imagitions is not to make the big things small but to make the small things big. To fill our lives with eternal awe over God’s beauty. And this should fill our hearts with joy.

Last point I want to make. In response to your comment, I realize now, that this pain will only be removed from me in the next life, not the present one.
I would like to remind you of John 11 when Jesus Raises Lazarus. Jesus said to Martha , “Your brother will rise again.” Martha said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.” Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”

See, Martha, also believed in the ressurection and in heaven and put her hopes in attaining the thing she wanted then. But Jesus shows her that one need not wait that long if you believe in Christ. So I leave you with Jesus question, **Do you believe this? **
 
OP, your resolve to be a saint and sacrifice for your wife is admirable. However, I must ask you again - what about your children? How do they fit into all this? Is it healthy for them to live in a house where Mom abuses Dad and plans to divorce him in order to cavort with a lesbian lover, with Dad’s apparent acquiescence to this state of affairs?

Please think and pray hard about how your decision to stay is going to affect your poor children. **You are not the only one who suffers from this situation. **This is not a good model of marriage for them. Even if they are nearly grown up it is not good for them to be in this poisonous atmosphere. I speak as the child of a meek man who was browbeaten and verbally abused by his wife for as long as I have known them. I am now happily married but still dealing with the wounds of my childhood. I love my father and perhaps he had the same intent as you…however, any daughter hates to see her father’s unhappiness and suffering and I really wish he would have stood up for himself. 😦
 
OP, your resolve to be a saint and sacrifice for your wife is admirable. However, I must ask you again - what about your children? How do they fit into all this? Is it healthy for them to live in a house where Mom abuses Dad and plans to divorce him in order to cavort with a lesbian lover, with Dad’s apparent acquiescence to this state of affairs?

Please think and pray hard about how your decision to stay is going to affect your poor children. **You are not the only one who suffers from this situation. **This is not a good model of marriage for them. Even if they are nearly grown up it is not good for them to be in this poisonous atmosphere. I speak as the child of a meek man who was browbeaten and verbally abused by his wife for as long as I have known them. I am now happily married but still dealing with the wounds of my childhood. I love my father and perhaps he had the same intent as you…however, any daughter hates to see her father’s unhappiness and suffering and I really wish he would have stood up for himself. 😦
Yes I agree. I would also ask, isnt part of honering your marriage vows precisely not giving up on changing your wife’s heart? Refusing to divorse your wife is a great thing, but is is only half the battle. The other half is for you as the head of the household to help being your wife back to Christ and respect your marriage. If this means that your wife may resent you then perhaps so be it. You must try however.

The way I imagine it is this… a fish might have the strong desire to get out of water, but if his faith is so great, and his commitment so wonderful that despite his desire he stays in the water… then this is an amazing admirable thing. However, the fish must continue to swim upstream against the current. Choosing to stay in the water takes is very admirable and demonstrate a great faith but the fish must also swim up stream even if it causes the waters to recede for that is the goal of a fish - to *Live *Inside the Waters and not merely flow in them.
 
Yes I agree. I would also ask, isnt part of honering your marriage vows precisely not giving up on changing your wife’s heart? Refusing to divorse your wife is a great thing, but is is only half the battle. The other half is for you as the head of the household to help being your wife back to Christ and respect your marriage. If this means that your wife may resent you then perhaps so be it. You must try however.
I am trying. I pray for my wife every day. And I try to set the best example possible for her. I try to live a life of Christian charity.

It isn’t working. She doesn’t seem to care. I think deep down, she would rather be without me. Seemingly every day, shw grows more cold and distant.

Maybe this is a large part of why I feel no joy.

=========================================================

“OP, your resolve to be a saint and sacrifice for your wife is admirable. However, I must ask you again - what about your children? How do they fit into all this?”

I still strongly feel that my children are better off with both of their parents. I came from a single parent home, and I swore that I would never put my children through that. Ever. It didn’t matter what I had to sacrifice - even my own dignity.

============================================================
“See, Martha, also believed in the ressurection and in heaven and put her hopes in attaining the thing she wanted then. But Jesus shows her that one need not wait that long if you believe in Christ. So I leave you with Jesus question, Do you believe this?

I reflected on Luke 9:22-23 today, after your first post, CSUNgerie:

22
He said, “The Son of Man must suffer greatly and be rejected by the elders, the chief priests, and the scribes, and be killed and on the third day be raised.”
23
Then he said to all, "If anyone wishes to come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me.

To me, the message of this passage is clear: for the true Christian, every day is Good Friday.

I really do believe that there can be happiness and joy in this world, and the next. But what I also understand is this: the joy is certainly not guaranteed to all of us, in this world. For many of us, there is sacrifice, self-denial, chastity, and obedience - but not joy. We must live the way of the cross, and if that means 100% continence, so be it.

I am grateful for the Lord for many things. I am grateful for every breathe I take. I nearly died when I was seven years old - I nearly bled to death after a cranial hemmorage. So I do know that every day is a gift.

So I am grateful, and I do have hope. But joy… No.

I pray to the Lord, to help me understand why this true. :sad_yes:
 
I am trying. I pray for my wife every day. And I try to set the best example possible for her. I try to live a life of Christian charity…
I really do believe that there can be happiness and joy in this world, and the next. But what I also understand is this: the joy is certainly not guaranteed to all of us, in this world. For many of us, there is sacrifice, self-denial, chastity, and obedience - but not joy. We must live the way of the cross, and if that means 100% continence, so be it.

I am grateful for the Lord for many things. I am grateful for every breathe I take. I nearly died when I was seven years old - I nearly bled to death after a cranial hemmorage. So I do know that every day is a gift.

So I am grateful, and I do have hope. But joy… No.

I pray to the Lord, to help me understand why this true. :sad_yes:
But isnt sacrifice, self denial, chastity, and obedience themselves joy? Or atleast they should be. Joy, unlike happiness, is not attached to good times or things that will pass. Joy transcends, joy lives even when one is in the pits. Joy, says chesterton, is the enormousness secret of the christian. Joy is like the sun in that, the stronger gravity (i.e. pain, sorrow) squeeze it the brighter it explores for it gives us a glipse into the passion of our Lord and perhaps helps us understand a little of what he meant when he said, “My yoke is easy and my burden is light.”

I must admit, I feel terrible saying this because I dont know if I would hold up half as well if I was in your position. You have come a long way and I am encouraged by your desire to carry your cross. Now you need to that thing that will make the cross an incredibly heavy thing but an incredibly light thing at the same time. I will continue to pray for you that Jesus can share his passion and joy with you - both burning side by side.

GOD BLESS YOU
 
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