Sexual History & Marriage

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Ben - It seems determining her current state regarding all this would be pretty easy if trusting her is possible for you and something you want to do.
  • Has she repented of her past sexual sins?
  • Is she living a chaste life now?
  • Does she intend to live a chaste life?
  • Does she have a Catholic understanding of marriage? (This would be brought out during pre-Cana.)
If she can answer “yes” to these questions then the ball is entirely in your court and your problems with trust are just that: your problems. There have been a lot of comments generalizing things, e.g. whether someone who participated in “swinging” is a questionable marriage partner, is fornication with a married person worse than “run of the mill” fornication (“run of the mill” makes it seem so banal). You’re not dating “someone who _______,” you’re dating a particular woman who you can only interact with as an individual, not a category.

You also wrote that you think knowing the truth, including the bigger details, and dealing with it is best. Given that you think this, maybe you should send your girlfriend a link to this thread so that she can see how you truly feel.

You’re right: knowing God’s will isn’t always easy.
  • JP
 
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Lilyofthevalley:
I suppose Pookie is trying to make some point with that question. Seriously, there is no point. Anyone who has participated in swinging is questionable to marry. Especially if she is still friends with that couple.
I have to agree 100%. I also agree with the other posters about the red flag part, especially that she continues email relationships. These don’t sound like ancient past, but rather something much more immediate.
 
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j_arden:
Ben - It seems determining her current state regarding all this would be pretty easy if trusting her is possible for you and something you want to do.
  • Has she repented of her past sexual sins?
  • Is she living a chaste life now?
  • Does she intend to live a chaste life?
  • Does she have a Catholic understanding of marriage? (This would be brought out during pre-Cana.)
If she can answer “yes” to these questions then the ball is entirely in your court and your problems with trust are just that: your problems. There have been a lot of comments generalizing things, e.g. whether someone who participated in “swinging” is a questionable marriage partner, is fornication with a married person worse than “run of the mill” fornication (“run of the mill” makes it seem so banal). You’re not dating “someone who _______,” you’re dating a particular woman who you can only interact with as an individual, not a category.

You also wrote that you think knowing the truth, including the bigger details, and dealing with it is best. Given that you think this, maybe you should send your girlfriend a link to this thread so that she can see how you truly feel.

You’re right: knowing God’s will isn’t always easy.
  • JP
You are correct JP, a lot of my feelings on this issue do stem from my concerns as it relates to trust. I guess it makes me hesitant to completely trust someone knowing they have done these sorts of things. Clarifying fully her change of heart and attitude are huge in my ability to trust her. I am no doubt scared to death of making a mistake and marrying the wrong person. Certainly once these issues are clarified and I still have trust issues, then it certainly would be my problem to deal with. The ball would be totally in my court.

Perhaps “run of the mill” was inappropriate verbiage in that statement because clearly as you indicated this is not a trivial issue, no matter what the circumstances. There is no doubt she is a beautiful and unique woman that cannot be categorized. That is just one of the many reason that I fell in love with her. She is an absolutely wonderful person.

Sending her the link would certainly bring this concern out front and center. Although, I have probably made statements here that I would communicate to her in a more sensitive manner.

Thank you for your frankness, it is appreciated.

CB
 
Ben -

I agree that sending her the link would not best for exactly the reason you wrote. I was usuing that as an example of how discretion is good and full-on disclosure isn’t always good, though as I reread my post I realize I didn’t make that clear at all! Sorry!

You’re right about wanting to be sensitive in communicating your concerns. We need such sensitivity because we cannot love and forgive like God does. We often interpret things from an ego-centric and defensive viewpoint. When topics are difficult or there is conflict, recognizing this and a placing a buffer of some sort between you and your loved one, e.g. softening your words, leaving out details that will hurt, etc., is charitable and loving. We are fallen creatures in a fallen world and this fact effects everything about us: our emotional disposition, clarity of thought, ability to harness our wills, etc.

Prayers,

JP
 
Oh, gosh, CB: DON’T SEND HER THIS LINK!! Do communicate your concerns directly, but showing her (by email, no less) that you’ve been discussing her sexual history with hundreds of strangers might prove the end of your relationship.

That said…
You seem to be articulating two not-unrelated areas of concern: the fact that she’s still in touch with some of her previous sexual partners, and the fact that when it comes to the gift of marital intimacy, you two might not be on the same page, given her history.

I think you have to treat these worries separately. The fact that she’s still communicating, however casually, with her “exes” obviously creates a wedge of mistrust in your relationship. My question to you is: does she know how deeply you care for and love her? Does she know that you are hoping to marry her? Have you told her straight out? (If you aren’t clearly hoping to marry her, but just playing with the idea, then I think we have a whole new problem; you can’t ask for external signs of a commitment and exclusivity without an intentional commitment of your own heart and will).

My guess, which might be totally off-base, is that she actually doesn’t know how deeply you love her (if you do) and therefore may be stringing along these old lovers as a back-up plan, in case things between you two fall through. If it were absolutely clear to her that you love her and want to marry her as soon as possible, then I am almost sure (if she also loves you) that she would break off communication with the others. If not, then at least with a formal commitment you would have a basis to discuss her exterior relationships.

Second thing, and forgive a bit of bluntness: Yes, maybe she’s had more partners than you, and played around longer than you did. Fact is, you guys both had premarital sex, and you both have destroyed something in you which should have been kept for marriage. Premarital sexual experiences do have deep psychological and spiritual consequences. Even if you clearly grasp the need for and the beauty of chastity now, and believe that she may have not yet come to a deep understanding of chaste married love, you and she ARE both on the same page: having both “screwed up,” having both been forgiven by God and each other, but nonetheless still wounded for life by your past experiences.

It does not good to hold her (perhaps more colorful) past over her head as if it were more of an obstacle to discovering the beauty of conjugal love than your past is. If and when you ask her to marry you, your engagment time can be a deep, mutual, humble discovery of what your marriage will mean. It can be a fresh start for both of you. God makes all things new, and if you ask, and are open to His grace, He can show you both together His plan for your marriage, and all the wonder that a marriage under His Lordship can entail. But you can’t do that if you see this as her problem–you have to see it as a challenge for both of you, a call both of you have fallen short of (as do we all).

At this point, it is doubtful that she can discover the beauty of sex in a vacuum (as a pre-condition to your commitment) or through a pile of words. She will discover it in a loving, committed, chaste relationship. If you love her, and she’s willing, allow her to discover it through you.

Best of luck and wishes. I’ll pray for you both!
 
Here we see the wisdom and love in the Church’s teaching. If we all lived it, painful situations like this wouldn’t arise. It’s not wrong that it bothers you, but pray. She should probably resolve those feelings and relationships before you get any more serious. We were not designed for one-night(or six-month)-stands, so it is difficult to disconnect yourself from someone you’ve been intimate with. My prayers are with both of you.
 
Suzanne A:
Here we see the wisdom and love in the Church’s teaching. If we all lived it, painful situations like this wouldn’t arise. It’s not wrong that it bothers you, but pray.
Suzanne, there is no question that you are completely correct about that. If we all just followed the plan as God has clearly laid out for us just think of all the heart break and misery that could be avoided in this world. Sometimes it so much easier said than done…I thank God for his mercy.
 
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j_arden:
Ben -

I agree that sending her the link would not best for exactly the reason you wrote. I was usuing that as an example of how discretion is good and full-on disclosure isn’t always good, though as I reread my post I realize I didn’t make that clear at all! Sorry!
Thanks JP, I certainly hear what you are saying. While I definitely do not need ALL the details, I do know that truth and honesty are absoutely essential to any relationship…and even more so to a marriage. As you stated, sensitivity from both our perspectives is key. I want to be able to go into this (if I go into this) with my eyes wide open, so that hopefully down the road neither one of us gets blindsided by something from our past. Thanks again.

CB
 
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maendem:
does she know how deeply you care for and love her? Does she know that you are hoping to marry her? Have you told her straight out? (If you aren’t clearly hoping to marry her, but just playing with the idea, then I think we have a whole new problem; you can’t ask for external signs of a commitment and exclusivity without an intentional commitment of your own heart and will).

My guess, which might be totally off-base, is that she actually doesn’t know how deeply you love her (if you do) and therefore may be stringing along these old lovers as a back-up plan, in case things between you two fall through. If it were absolutely clear to her that you love her and want to marry her as soon as possible, then I am almost sure (if she also loves you) that she would break off communication with the others.

Second thing, and forgive a bit of bluntness: Yes, maybe she’s had more partners than you, and played around longer than you did. Fact is, you guys both had premarital sex, and you both have destroyed something in you which should have been kept for marriage. Premarital sexual experiences do have deep psychological and spiritual consequences. Even if you clearly grasp the need for and the beauty of chastity now, and believe that she may have not yet come to a deep understanding of chaste married love, you and she ARE both on the same page: having both “screwed up,” having both been forgiven by God and each other, but nonetheless still wounded for life by your past experiences.

At this point, it is doubtful that she can discover the beauty of sex in a vacuum (as a pre-condition to your commitment) or through a pile of words. She will discover it in a loving, committed, chaste relationship. If you love her, and she’s willing, allow her to discover it through you.

Best of luck and wishes. I’ll pray for you both!
Hi Maendem,

Actually she is very aware of how much I love and care for her. She is always telling me that she loves the fact that there is no doubt in her mind that I truly love her, and have her best interests in mind. Yes, she is also very aware of my feelings regarding marrying her. She feels the same way about me, we simply have not gone to the next level with it yet…hence my visit here. As far as communicating with past partners…I have basically just bit my tongue up to this point on that subject. I did not want to have to bring this to her attention, I was hoping she would come to the appropriate conclusion on her own. She is quite adamant about never being alone with any other man (especially including exes) because of the fact that she would be putting herself in an inappropriate circumstance and because she respects me. That line of thinking does not seem to apply with telephone or email contact, but to me I really feel that it should.

You are correct…we have BOTH sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. I realize that and therefore almost feel hypocritical in my feelings on this issue. I still think it is important to realize the extent to which someone has gone in questionable circumstances. Morally we were both wrong and have both sinned, but the extent to which we both took the sin was quite different. Certainly one would agree that using drugs at all is a sin, but at the same time doesn’t the behavior of a experimental user vs. an addict tend to be looked at a bit differently? Not to diminish the seriousness of the sin in either case at all, but it is the extent that seems to stand out so sharply.

Amen on your last paragraph…I will certainly be praying for God’s grace in that regard assuming we eventually decide to move to that level.

CB
 
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catechistben:
As far as communicating with past partners…I have basically just bit my tongue up to this point on that subject. I did not want to have to bring this to her attention, I was hoping she would come to the appropriate conclusion on her own. She is quite adamant about never being alone with any other man (especially including exes) because of the fact that she would be putting herself in an inappropriate circumstance and because she respects me. That line of thinking does not seem to apply with telephone or email contact, but to me I really feel that it should.
Whoa there Ben! Quit biting your tongue and start telling your girlfriend how you feel. If you get married to her with these feelings, it will only get worse. If having contact with ex-lovers annoys you, then she needs to know that in no uncertain terms. If she continues to have contact with them AFTER you talk to her, then marriage is not an option IMO. That is way too much baggage to bring to a marriage unless the problems are talked out and resolved. Don’t fall for the “she or he will change after we get married” thought! There are a lot of divorced people who can tell you that rarely happens.

Tell you what----if she really loves you and wants to be married to you, she will respect your feelings on this issue and take appropriate actions. Otherwise, you would have to question her committment to you. But you need to talk to her first. Do it! This weekend! Quit hemming and hawwing.

Communication, communication, communication!
 
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Journeyman:
Whoa there Ben! Quit biting your tongue and start telling your girlfriend how you feel. If you get married to her with these feelings, it will only get worse. If having contact with ex-lovers annoys you, then she needs to know that in no uncertain terms. If she continues to have contact with them AFTER you talk to her, then marriage is not an option IMO. That is way too much baggage to bring to a marriage unless the problems are talked out and resolved. Don’t fall for the “she or he will change after we get married” thought! There are a lot of divorced people who can tell you that rarely happens.

Tell you what----if she really loves you and wants to be married to you, she will respect your feelings on this issue and take appropriate actions. Otherwise, you would have to question her committment to you. But you need to talk to her first. Do it! This weekend! Quit hemming and hawwing.

Communication, communication, communication!
Thanks again Journeyman…I should clarify though. Up until now I have bit my tongue, I think you are correct that now is the time to address this issue. No more beating around the bush, this conversation just needs to happen once and for all. I tend to agree with you, this is definitely a deal breaker type of situation. Depending on her reaction I could certainly see this going either way. If I was going out of town this evening I would do it this weekend. I guess it will have to wait until at least next week. Thanks again and have a great weekend.

CB
 
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TarAshly:
…my fiance has also been with one other girl other than me, he was my first so i went through some of the same things …
I’ll try to say this delicately, as I don’t want to come across as judgemental, but you say your fiance was your first. I take that to mean he was the first man with whom you had sex. The original poster is attempting to live a chaste life now, regretting past sexual encounters and having difficulty dealing with his girlfriend’s past impurity. It just doesn’t sound like the kind of situation for which advice would be welcome from someone who publicly admits to fornication herself…

I’m sorry if that seems harsh, but I’m assuming that the poster appealed to a Catholic forum in the hopes of garnering a spiritually sound solution to his problem, based on moral values and grounded in true Church teaching.
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Ben:
I would very much like some Catholic/Christian feedback on this issue. Am I making too much over nothing? Should I let the past stay in the past and just “get over it”? Should I simply attempt to forgive her as Christ has forgiven her? Or would I be better off moving on and waiting for a woman that fits my “criteria”? Other than this issue she is a wonderful person…What should I do? What would be the Catholic Church’s position on this issue?
Have you prayed about it? Pray some rosaries, spend some time in front of the tabernacle, and go to confession. The sacraments are very powerful conduits of grace that have been given to us by God. Use them.

Definitely get tested for STDs, both of you.

Previous posters have said that there is nothing for you to forgive, since you were not married at the time. When I was a teen we were taught at church that having sex before marriage is like committing adultery against your future spouse. It’s not adultery - it’s fornication - but it still hurts your future spouse. You did this, too. Maybe she had more partners than you, but that doesn’t take away the fact that you did the same thing. Apologize to her and ask for her forgiveness, then forgive her whether she asks you or not.

Tell her how it bothers you when you encounter her previous partners. This is an issue you need to resolve, and without knowing more about the kind of relationships she still maintains, I don’t have any ideas for you. Do discuss it with her, though.
 
It is not your sexual history before marriage that matters.

It is your sexual history in marriage that does.

Love and accept her now. If you do, then love and accept her always.
 
We know Mary Magdalene was forgiven of something by our Lord. We don’t know what it was.

The idea that it had been for promiscuity has never been proven. What she means to the Church is more symbolic for all our sins which do not deserve to be forgiven but often are.

And yes, if your ex is still friends with guys she slept with that is wrong. I would have nothing to do with someone like that.

Men and women can be friends, but not if one is attracted to the other.

There is something odd about that. Maybe it is not grounds for disqualifying her as a wife, but if she has really put her libertine days behind her, why is she still social friends with them?
 
George, sexual history before marriage is VERY important to know. There are sexually transmitted diseases which are fatal. Hep B, Hep C, and HIV are three which come to mind.
Herpes is another STD, which not fatal, but there is no cure for it, and it’s painful.
 
Sorry I didn’t see this sooner. Lilyofthevalley, I agree with you, it’s very important to get her tested prior to being married. If she has true love for him, she would love him enough to do so.

Catechistben, you amaze me with how forgiving and compassionate you are! And you have gone beyond what many people would do in trying to be objective about this, and not hold her past against her. So for those who are being too critical, it makes me wonder.

Your concerns are legitimate, and wise before you enter into a lifetime, Catholic commitment. What you really seem to want to know, is whether or not she is ready for a permanent marriage commitment, whether or not you are compatible sexually, and whether or not she is repentant enough so that she is firmly resolved to never be the way she was, and to take marriage seriously enough to be a good risk.You are not expecting perfection.

And going by what you have said of her, and from what I know of a case that ended in divorce 10-04 where the evangelist didn’t check out his wife beforehand, and it was a disaster. It lasted less than three months!

She was beautiful and charming, knew how to role play, and manipulated them during vulnerable moments of their lives. She was also a psychopathic liar (one who believes their own lies). She had a history of affairs, and was married three times.

He was very forgiving, too, and didn’t really know her background history, and didn’t ask the ex-husbands’ opinions, a major mistake. It took an investigator to find out more. Plus she was a gold digger.

Her first ex husband loved her so much, that he put up with her three affairs with three different men before he gave up! Later on he became a psychologist. They had a son together who is college age.

The 2nd husband was an evangelist who was also married before. He had a forgiving attitude, too, but I don’t know if he knew her past either. It lasted about 10 years, then she left him and lied that she fled in fear of her life, all lies. Divorced several months later, she returned to him. He was so desperate not to divorce again, they lived in sin secretly for almost 2 years. She was supposed to hand in legal papers to dissolve the divorce.

Instead of doing that, she left him. Had a whirlwind courtship with another evangelist the following month, married within a few weeks, no real engagement period! She lied to him that she was single and celibate for 2-1/2 years, and lied to his family.

The truth began to come out shortly after they were married. On top of this, he kept collapsing from the stress of it, and came close to having a heart attack. She left him, even though they were seeking the counsel of a local pastor. An investigator had to track her down.

She went to two pastors in other cities, and spread lies about him. He had to get a lawyer to stop this. She threatened to write a book,wanted a divorce and money that would include a percentage of all the many years he was in ministry. He tried filing for an annulment, but she stalled on it for so many months, he gave in to a divorce.

The first ex-husband described her as being a disingenuous sociopath with a split personality. Disingenuous has to do with being a schemer. Sociopath is a nicer word for psychopath, a person capable of doing evil things without remorse or emotion.

She had two evangelists in deep distress within a few months of each other. I personally suspect she was a church infiltrator and not a true Christian, going by things I’ve researched, sent to try and destroy their ministries.

So, it’s good that some people suggest that you get some counseling. But I’d say go much further and get her officially investigated, plus get testimonies from as many people as you can who know her.

This will help you to discern her true character, and whether or not she is ready for a Catholic marriage. I’m wondering if she’s ready for this, too, since it can be stricter than Protestants with their views on human sexuality.

Recently, when I tried giving advice to a virgin who was engaged and was jittery about her honeymoon, on a Christian forum, I got blasted for my conservative Catholic beliefs on this topic, which reminded me of how different we can be.

Plus, I can see the damage Planned Parenthood teachings have done for decades, and the bad fruit has manifested to a crisis in human sexuality for our nation and beyond.

You would be a good catch for her, but maybe for now you should just stay casual friends? And since I’m much more conservative than she is, I feel like staying in my own league is what I’d prefer personally. Sometimes the Lord does lead us to go beyond that.

Keep praying, and do some concrete things to tell you the truth, so you won’t have to guess on something as important as marriage. God bless.
 
For whatever the opinion of a random internet stranger is worth it sounds like this is something that really bothers you. That being the case you probably aren’t in the right mood to create a life long commitment to this woman. That doesn’t mean break it off per se. It just means that you probably have a long ways to go before you’d be ready to marry her, if ever.

I can somewhat sympathize with your situation. My ex was much more experienced than I was. Before you ask thats not the reason we got divorced.
 
What about your past should she hold against you? Surely you’re not perfect either and their are sins that are even more important than sexual sins.

Maybe the reason she isn’t forthcoming is because it’s none of your business and doesn’t like being interrogated.

I think she would be making a mistake to marry you since you’re so fixated on something that is none of your business. It really does sound like you have control issues and that can only be bad.
 
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Pinklady:
I think she would be making a mistake to marry you since you’re so fixated on something that is none of your business. It really does sound like you have control issues and that can only be bad.
Hey, now… I’d feel the same way. I’d want the sexual relations to be something special, but if someone has a very promiscuous past, just how special can sexual relations be to that person now? At least if those meant nothing and they ere a long time ago and you repented, then it can be special again. But if one is proud of his or her sexual past, and sees nothing wrong with it, then sex can’t really be all that special, and that’s something I’d definitely want to know.
 
Adam C, I agree with you. It’s important to find out if they are really with the same mindset on these important issues.

Pinklady, you complain about him being controlling, but I think you are the one whose trying to control him too much. He has sounded very reasonable, and did not act self-righteous at all, he has admitted to his past wrongdoing as well.

He has a right to find out whether or not her mindset and heart have changed, and whether or not the past is in the past, or if she is still living the same lifestyle as before. So far, from what he has written, I see no proof that she’s ready for marriage yet.

She could be sleeping around with people and then going to confession weekly, assuming it will be forgiven, without the right attitude of making permanent changes. He has a right to know what’s really going on, before he attempts a lifetime commitment with her. He has already forgiven her past, it’s the present he’s concerned with.
 
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