Shame

[cestusdei]

Yabut, there is no point in shouting at us. We may agree with you, we may disagree, but we are not Them. We are not Them. You need another Forum if you want to discuss your views of Islam.

Carol, as I remember we Christians didn’t do anything to them, but they came out of the desert and invaded us. More recently they flew an airplane into the wtc. Do you remember that? I do. This is a forum on non-catholic religions. If you don’t like my objections to islamic atrocities then you don’t have to read them. Place your head carefully in the sand and pretend all is well.

 

[Vaclav]

More recently they flew an airplane into the wtc.

19 Muslims did that, not all of them.

By that logic do you apologise for every bombing done by the IRA, PIRA, and RIRA?

Will you be flying to Manchester and apologising to the families there for the 1996 bombing?

 

[Iowa_Mike]

Shame comes in many forms:

• When a person uses uncharitable or hurtful language in a posts, that person brings shame on themself.
• When a person engages in name-calling and ridicule of another poster’s beliefs in a post, that person brings shame on themself.
• When a person claims to be on the forum for one purpose but behaves in a manner completely contrary to that purpose, that person is shamefully duplicitous.
• When a person posts under more than one screen name, that person is shamefully deceitful.
• When a person puts forward strongly worded and controversial opinions and beliefs and then avoids debate with those that disagree, that person is a shameful proselytiser.
• When a person comes to the forum with an agenda to undermine the well documented beliefs, traditions and doctrines of the Church, that person is shamefully malicious.

I think it is also important to point out that there is no shame in defending the faith a spirited and respectful manner.

If one expects their views to be respectfully treated they should extend that same courtesy to others on the forum. Some on this forum want only the first part.

Iowa Mike

 

[Verisimilitude]

19 Muslims did that, not all of them.

By that logic do you apologise for every bombing done by the IRA, PIRA, and RIRA?

Will you be flying to Manchester and apologising to the families there for the 1996 bombing?

If mine was a voice that could be heard, yes I’d apologize to those vicimized by those who did things wrongly in the name of my faith. A faith that does not call for violence, but peace. If a Catholic put on a murder-vest and exploded in a Muslim marketplace, saying they did it in the name of God- you bet I’d be a loud voice denouncing that. Wouldn’t you?

 

[jack_hawkins]

I quite agree, I wasn’t trying to be nice about it at all. It’s rather hypocritical to be horrified and offended at something practiced by the leader of another religion when much the same thing was instrumental to the founding of your own, isn’t it? Mohammed has been repeatedly denounced as a pedophile here (in spite of the fact that Aisha’s age at marriage is heavily disputed by scholars) – if that’s so, why hasn’t Joseph?

The reasoning has been extensively aired, but the reason why you post deliberately offensive views on a Catholic forum has not been! You say “much the same thing” when it has been clearly shown that that is not the case.
I am baffled as to what your purpose for posting here is, and why you are surprised when people are offended by statements that are clearly meant to offend.

 

[Mirdath]

Because we don’t know how old Mary was, but she had to have been child bearing age at least.

We do know that Aisha was nine. NINE. do you think having sex with a nine year old is a good thing? Yes or no.

We do not know that. Like I said, it’s disputed – many Muslims believe she was much older, up to nineteen, which is a perfectly acceptable age for marriage in modern society.

Do you think having sex with a twelve-year-old is a good thing (the Catholic Encyclopedia places Mary between twelve and fourteen)? Yes or no.

 

[Valke2]

19 Muslims did that, not all of them.

By that logic do you apologise for every bombing done by the IRA, PIRA, and RIRA?

Will you be flying to Manchester and apologising to the families there for the 1996 bombing?

There’s no doubt in my mind that religion flew those planes into buildings.

 

[jack_hawkins]

Do you think having sex with a twelve-year-old is a good thing (the Catholic Encyclopedia places Mary between twelve and fourteen)? Yes or no.

That’s a complex question, for which a yes/no answer is clearly not appropriate.
It is clear that many many Muslims accept 8 (or 9) as the age of Aisha and justify it, and that is the issue in fact - not the facts which are difficult to ascertain but what Muslims believe. And surely you can see 8 or 9 is a worl away from 15 or 16, and since Christians believe that Mary conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit that the issue of sexual intercourse plainly didn’t come into it.
So you really don’t understand the issues at all

 

[jack_hawkins]

19 Muslims did that, not all of them.

By that logic do you apologise for every bombing done by the IRA, PIRA, and RIRA?

Will you be flying to Manchester and apologising to the families there for the 1996 bombing?

More than 19 Muslims were responsible - and in my area there have certainly been Muslims glorifying that atrocity or denying Muslims were responsible (and senior “moderate” figures at that).

 

[Rachel_Malloy]

Ok folks,

Stay on track and remain charitable or this thread will need to be closed.

Thanks-

Rachel

 

[DLC]

Christians are not hate others. God commands it. We can hate what false religions stand for and refute them. There is a difference here. Just because we may not agree with a particulare religion does not mean that we hate the people who follow that religion. We pray for them and evengelize them in love. Hatred must be limited to rare time of injustice towards others and balsphemy against God. We are never to hate people, only that what they may do or believe in ignorance.

 

[cestusdei]

19 Muslims did that, not all of them.

By that logic do you apologise for every bombing done by the IRA, PIRA, and RIRA?

Will you be flying to Manchester and apologising to the families there for the 1996 bombing?

They were dancing in the streets. This is not the only terrorist attack they have ever done. The IRA for example was a marxist group and was not religiously motivated. The Church had no problem condemning them. In islam it is like pulling teeth to get them to condemn terrorism. Many still think the “Jews” did the 911 attacks.

 

[cestusdei]

We do not know that. Like I said, it’s disputed – many Muslims believe she was much older, up to nineteen, which is a perfectly acceptable age for marriage in modern society.

Do you think having sex with a twelve-year-old is a good thing (the Catholic Encyclopedia places Mary between twelve and fourteen)? Yes or no.

We don’t know how old Mary was, so the point is moot. But we do know for a fact that Aisha was nine. Like many muslims you refuse to condemn that because you do believe it. Otherwise you would have no problem condemning it. Nice try dodging the question, but I have yet to see even ONE muslim say marrying nine year olds is wrong.

 

[Chancellare]

I was confronted with hostile posters in CAF in the past. In the process I learned the following:

1. If some people are looking for a fight, stay nice or stay away.
2. If you caused others to be angry and insulted, apologize. I think I made at least 3 apologies in the last 2 months.
3. If things get heated up, stick to facts, keep your opinion to yourself.
4. Don’t answer any post when you’re angry.

 

[Iowa_Mike]

Christians are not hate others. God commands it. We can hate what false religions stand for and refute them. There is a difference here. Just because we may not agree with a particulare religion does not mean that we hate the people who follow that religion. We pray for them and evengelize them in love. Hatred must be limited to rare time of injustice towards others and balsphemy against God. We are never to hate people, only that what they may do or believe in ignorance.

Hate the sin, love the sinner.

Iowa Mike

 

[Montalban]

Holy cow! If you are offering this up as part of a a critique of Islam, then I have to ask if it does not parallel an identical requirement of the Catholic Church? I am not sure that I understand how you think it differs.

Holy cow? If it’s your intent to be that selective of evidence, then you wish to advertise you don’t have any point to make.

I cited evidence about them not having us as friends, not being married to us, hating us. You want to pick on one small aspect, that’s up to you.

Does the Catholic Church call non-Catholic practices evil? I’d like to know this in case (as an Orthodox) I ever consider marrying a Catholic.

 

[Montalban]

The danger is that if you persist in presenting your argument as you are doing here, no one will read your postings (see advice on avoiding those who are known to distress us) and we can therefore not learn from the range of knowledge that you evidently have.

I learn from discussion and have provided evidence to prompt such, quite a bit of evidence in fact, only to see you isolate one small part and pretend that that’s the total of it.

If this distresses you, then I pray for you.

Jesus called us to be stronger than that.

And I note you offer no evidence. Your best argument so far has to give me ‘advice’ and ignore discussion.

 

[Montalban]

Yabut, there is no point in shouting at us. We may agree with you, we may disagree, but we are not Them. We are not Them. You need another Forum if you want to discuss your views of Islam.

When someone offers up defence of evil they support evil.

Imagine if you would we were back in 1938. Someone writes against the Nazis, saying that Hitler’s written a book calling for the destruction of all man kind. He points to examples of persecution in Germany and the fact that Hitler’s annexed Austria.

Someone steps in and says “Hey man, why can’t we all live in peace? Hitler’s said he won’t invade Czechoslovakia.”

And then the evidence keeps coming.

One side offering a relativist argument which amounts to a defence of evil. The other stating that evil is what it is.

Someone cites Nazi laws restricting marriages to Aryans, force labour, seizing of funds, discrimination before the courts, etc. Someone counters with one about Catholic marriage, as if this even comes near to being a counter-argument.

I know which side of this argument I’d be on. And I’m sure I’d know which side others would be on.

I can even see it that when the war starts and Germany bombs Britain and Britain fights back, there would be those saying that an aggressive attack and an aggressive defence are the exact same thing - even though Britain’s fighting for its life.

 

[GregoryPalamas]

We do not know that. Like I said, it’s disputed – many Muslims believe she was much older, up to nineteen, which is a perfectly acceptable age for marriage in modern society.

Do you think having sex with a twelve-year-old is a good thing (the Catholic Encyclopedia places Mary between twelve and fourteen)? Yes or no.

Show us where Joseph had sex with her.

CDL

 

[GregoryPalamas]

I was confronted with hostile posters in CAF in the past. In the process I learned the following:

1. If some people are looking for a fight, stay nice or stay away.
2. If you caused others to be angry and insulted, apologize. I think I made at least 3 apologies in the last 2 months.
3. If things get heated up, stick to facts, keep your opinion to yourself.
4. Don’t answer any post when you’re angry.

Much wisdom here. CDL