She said "men don't have any right to talk about abortion!"

[AmyS]

Bella3502:

How would such a law be enforced?

I think men hold the key to the reduction of abortions in this land. If more would stick around and face responsibility everything would be different. But the reality is, that men don’t stay. They say they will and then don’t for a variety of reasons - some good, some bad.

Bella, why should they stay? Abortion has made it easy for them to walk away… And, what about the guys who do stay… Who want to stay… and, have that taken away from them. My brother in law ended his own life because of this exact thing. The women he was with, killed their child by aborting it, and his heart was so broken he killed himself. What a tragedy. I kinda believe that men get the raw end of the deal no matter what. They can hold back form having sex though. That would help.

 

[mlchance]

Bella3502:

I think men hold the key to the reduction of abortions in this land. If more would stick around and face responsibility everything would be different.

But only about 13% of women who get abortions cite being single or in a poor relationship as the reasons they choose to kill their unborn children. This compares to 16% who cite not wanting to have to adjust their lifestyle, 28% who cite economic reasons, 32% who cite not being ready for the responsibility, about about 8% who just don’t want any more children.

How do we as a society reduce abortion rates? First step: Make abortion illegal.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[JamesG]

ok I here is the msn conversation … thanks to all of you for your posts. I tried my best to use them

Her says:
you know that the Conservatives have openly stated that they feel that is a moral decision and not a Government decision and won’t support making abortion ilegal…so guess they kind of support it to
Me says:
yes but I would rather vote for them then the liberals because the liberals openly support it
Me says:
that made up my mind recently
Me says:
I can only hope that with time the conservatives will have enough power to deconstruct this evil practice
Her says:
the liberals don’t openly support it …they say its a person’s decision not a countries
Her says:
they have said they wont!!!
Me says:
well I don’t think it is a choice.
Her says:
Harper was very clear on that on Thursday
Me says:
well yes but he doesn’t support it fully
Me says:
and from my perspective that party is the only one that could bring about change
Her says:
wow i sorta think it’s wrong is your voting choice
Me says:
well I can’t vote for a government that supports the culture of death
Me says:
I’m sorry
Her says:
I can say this with a lot of thought…If the conservatives get a majority…I think I will be moving to the states
Me says:
I know the conservatices are not perfect
Me says:
but when they have more power they might be able to come out and stop it
Me says:
why?
Her says:
if I’m going to be run by Bush…I actually want him to be my Leader
Me says:
well we are still canada. and I would rather have a good relationship with the states then anything else
Me says:
yeah when I saw morgentaler say that you should not vote conservatice it made my mind
Me says:
anything that is against that evil man is a good thing
Her says:
Kev…I know you don’t care about the poor…but they will suffer greatly with the Conservative Government
Me says:
yes I know that is true. I really don’t like either party
Her says:
so I hope you are prepared to put up your paycheque to help them…since you seem to think this is a good thing
Her says:
it stuns me though…because you grew up poor and your supporting a partie that has proven without a doubt that poor people are a lesser people
Me says:
but when I try to show empathy for the innocent babies that are being cut in half for selfish reasons (and feeling pain) I can’t vote for anyone that supports them
Her says:
at least the Liberals and NDP think everyone is the same
Me says:
well yes… and the liberals and ndp did nothing for my family
Her says:
well people that are that poor will be the ones having the abortios guarenteed
Me says:
well I can only hope that men and women are smart enought to put in place a social support structer for these poor women who are told that it is ok to murder
Me says:
that is more of a problem with society and that willnever even start to change if you have a government that supports it
Me says:
if it was illegal that would be ideal
Her says:
I would not bring a baby into this world knowing that I couldn’t feed myself let alone a baby
Me says:
then we could spend our money on support infrastructer
Her says:
For you…its not your body
Me says:
yeah but if you have that child you force the men to pay for child support
Me says:
I have yet to meet a man who was never born. Since men were given the gift of life we have every right to speak up.
Her says:
the conservatives are going to cut funding to the programs that support Mentally retarded and developmentally challenged people
Her says:
do you know their sex drive is 3x
Her says:
as strong as ours and they don’t understand birthcontrol
Me says:
"would you hold up your infant to stop a bullet from hitting you?
Me says:
birthcontrol is also part of the culture of death
Her says:
not the same thing at all
Me says:
it is totally the same thing
Me says:
If it is immoral to sacrifice your baby to save your own life, why is it moral to sacrifice your baby so that you may live as you wish?

Her says:
I’m going to say this once…you are super judgmental
Me says:
it seems to me if men cant have a say or be involved in abortion, we should limit it to female doctors and allow only female victims. fair is fair.
i am being facetious, I AM NOT SEROUS
Her says:
you don’t have the right to make any decisions for anyone but yourself
Me says:
I totally disagree
Me says:
If you give me the right to kill my children, I’ll give you the right to kill yours
Her says:
if it is your seed…yes you have a say…otherwise I don’t want to be told that the decisions I make are not my own to make
Her says:
whatever

 

[JamesG]

Me says:
Abortion is a symptom of hardness of heart. If one were to approach the issue with a charitable heart filled, who could reach a decision to snuff out a life rather than endure manageable discomfort (in 99% of the cases) for less than 9 months.

Her says:
manageable discomfort
Me says:
This being said, it is easy for us to see the big picture. A woman or girl confronted with the issue is facing immediate issues that appear to be overwhelming
Her says:
so lets stuff a basketball up your *** and then you can decide how it feels pushing it out…discomfort
Me says:
lets talk about this… ok
Me says:
you are not a victem
Her says:
why…you know what you feel and I know what I feel
Me says:
you are a woman that has the gift of life
Me says:
having a baby does not make you a victem
Me says:
you must show true love for that baby inorder to have it
Her says:
take this to heart right now and get it…so we don’t have this conversation again cuz I’m fed up with it
Her says:
I don’t make decisions for others
Her says:
I don’t judge them for what they do
Her says:
it is not my life
Her says:
I take care of myself
Her says:
do I think murder is wrong yes
Me says:
robin how can you let a small boy in a mothers whom be cut in two with a knife?
Me says:
they feel pain
Her says:
but if someone was raping me or assaulting me…I’d be ok with killing them
Her says:
so get it
Me says:
they also smile in the whomb
Me says:
death IS never the answer to anything
Her says:
a baby doesnt small or feel pain until 6 months…that is a proven fact…
Her says:
so make a decision
Me says:
well abortions occur well after that
Her says:
if you continue to push this on me…then I will have to say get out of my life
Me says:
why robin?
Me says:
why would you do that to me?
Her says:
because everything you say is a judgement on me and what I beleive
Me says:
I’m trying to be reasonable with you
Her says:
and that is mean and unfair and think GOD would be very unimpressed with your behaviour
Her says:
no you are not
Me says:
why?
Her says:
you are trying to change my mind at every turn
Me says:
what have I done wrong?
Her says:
and that is not a religious practice
Me says:
yes I am trying to change your heart not your mind
Me says:
it is religious practice
Her says:
I have been to church in 11 different faiths in the last few years…you are the only person that condems my beliefs on a regular basis
Me says:
to let the truth and love of god be known
Her says:
Kev…push once more and I
Her says:
am finished
Her says:
I don’t enjoy this
Her says:
I hate it actually
Her says:
I don’t think my beliefs are yours to judge
Me says:
well I just want to know that you at least feel some empathy toward the unborn
Her says:
forcing yourself on me like this is exactly what the nazi’s did
Her says:
I can’t do that
Her says:
and I don’t care if you think that is wrong
Me says:
I’m not forcing myself on you. You are not a victem. you are a rational and loving woman.
Her says:
you seem to be incapable of talking about anything else
Me says:
I thought you were a christian. I am sorry
Her says:
I am a christian…but I am not catholic…and anglican’s are not against abortion
Me says:
some are
Her says:
they are prochoice…and prolife and pro making your own decisions
Me says:
that is moral relativism
Me says:
I guess I dont’ agree with that
Her says:
I will not become Catholic…I will not forget that Catholics are Judging us at every turn
Me says:
because if you let people do as they want… then evil can occur
Her says:
and I wont forget that Catholics beleive that they are true religion
Her says:
and I don’t believe that at all
Me says:
that is not true about catholics
Her says:
well here is a fact…I think its pure evil that you sit in judgment of me because I don’t want to force my opinions on anyone
Me says:
we belive and the pope has stated this many times that salvation through other means IS a fact
Her says:
really…you just said that being Anglican is moral relatism
Her says:
when you are perfect you may judge

 

[JamesG]

Me says:
it is anit-catholic retoric that promotes the notion that catholics think they are the only way
Her says:
but I have read the bible and it isnt a book about condemning people for making mistakes or blasphemy…God and Jesus and Religion is about a faith and forgiveness
Me says:
well… I was saying that what you belive in is moral relativeism. I’m not even sure if that is true about anglicans
Her says:
it is
Me says:
you are right it is all about faith
Her says:
and its true of 7th day adventists
Her says:
so have your own faith and keep it to yourself
Me says:
Jesus gave his body so that we would be saved
Me says:
he gave up his life for others
Her says:
and I’m alive and well
Her says:
and population is growing in leaps and bounds
Me says:
I think that is the message of life
Her says:
can you stop!!!
Me says:
suffering and love for others
Her says:
no more
Me says:
why?
Her says:
I’m telling you right now
Me says:
you anglicans agree with that
Her says:
bring it up one more time and I’m finished with you
Her says:
if you know how to talk about something else…let me know…otherwise goodnight
Me says:
ok then we can leave it at that. I just thought we had something in common with regards to faith in christ. but we can talk about other things

 

[siamesecat]

Orionthehunter:

Prior to being able to have an abortion, the woman would have to either:

1. Provide written permission of the father to have an abortion.
2. If she wants to assert that either she doesn’t know the father or he is unavailable, she’d have to provide an affidavitt of such assertion for which providing a fraudulent affidavitt has severe criminal and civil consequences.

If a doctor performed an abortion w/o one of the above items, there would be severe criminal, civil and professional (loss of medical license) consequences.

If the woman can’t get the permission of the father, he has so many days to produce evidence that he is financially capable to provide for the support of hte child and pay for the cost of the mother’s prenatal care.

While not exactly equal (biologically inequality is pre-determined), it adds greater equity to the scenario of when one parent wants the baby. Currently, all the choice is the woman’s. She can choose to abort w/o consent of the father or she can choose to have the baby and require child support. Under this scenario, without mutual consent, the father can require the woman to bear the child (this is her consequences for her role in getting pregnant) while the father bears the responsibility of raising the child to adulthood.

My thoughts exactly. It would cause extreme outrage from a lot of people, but if you sit back and think about it, it makes sense, even if it’s not totally equal. This is the only issue I have a Catholic position on (I’m not a member of a religion). When my friends say “well you have the right to choose about your body” I agree. I’m supportive of almost anything you do to yourself that doesn’t hurt others, at least not directly. But what I say is, you’re not just deciding for yourself, you’re deciding to take the life of someone else. So you;re not just choosing for yourself. And therein lies the difference. You’re ending the life of someone else. I’m not totally pro-life, and i see both sides clearly. But at least I understand why pro-lifers feel so passionately. I can understand pro-choice people, but I can’t understand radical pro-choicers who fight like crazy for abortion like it’s the best thing to ever happen. The attitude that sometimes abortions are necessary isn’t a bad one to me, although I don’t really agree, but the attitude that abortions are fantastic really scares me. It seems barbaric.

 

[AmyS]

JamesG - sounds like you did great. You can’t change peoples mind always, you just have to pray for them, and tell them the truth. You did really well at that. It is very typical for people to come back and say we are being judgmental, it was one of those things that is said too often. You know the truth.

My thing with her would be, has she ever had a child to make statements on how much pain there is? Yes, it is painful… But, what an incredible experience. I don’t even remember the pain anymore, it last when you are in labor… but, i think most moms would agree, once you see that baby, you forget about it very fast. Women have been given such a gift from God to experience pregnancy and the birthing process. It is sad to me that some women look at it as such a burden.

 

[JamesG]

AmyS:

JamesG - sounds like you did great. You can’t change peoples mind always, you just have to pray for them, and tell them the truth. You did really well at that. It is very typical for people to come back and say we are being judgmental, it was one of those things that is said too often. You know the truth.

My thing with her would be, has she ever had a child to make statements on how much pain there is? Yes, it is painful… But, what an incredible experience. I don’t even remember the pain anymore, it last when you are in labor… but, i think most moms would agree, once you see that baby, you forget about it very fast. Women have been given such a gift from God to experience pregnancy and the birthing process. It is sad to me that some women look at it as such a burden.

Thank you for your good words. I’m glad that you are happy with the gift of life that God has given you. It might be painfull but it is a gift and not a curse.

The reason she doesn’t want to listen to what I have to say is that she thinks that catholics are judging her at every turn. She even said that she won’t forget it.

I have to think of a way to address this argument. It couldn’t be further from the truth.

Basically if it makes her feel like she is wrong she will reject it.

There was a time when she wanted to have sex with me and I said no. She asked several times actually. I’ve never shown interest in her. So perhaps that is why she thinks I’m being judgmental. I’ve rejected her in that way.

 

[Bella3502]

mlchance:

But only about 13% of women who get abortions cite being single or in a poor relationship as the reasons they choose to kill their unborn children. This compares to 16% who cite not wanting to have to adjust their lifestyle, 28% who cite economic reasons, 32% who cite not being ready for the responsibility, about about 8% who just don’t want any more children.

How do we as a society reduce abortion rates? First step: Make abortion illegal.

– Mark L. Chance.

I am glad that the majority of society does not agree with your first step. It is not the answer.

 

[AmyS]

JamesG:

Thank you for your good words. I’m glad that you are happy with the gift of life that God has given you. It might be painfull but it is a gift and not a curse.

The reason she doesn’t want to listen to what I have to say is that she thinks that catholics are judging her at every turn. She even said that she won’t forget it.

I have to think of a way to address this argument. It couldn’t be further from the truth.

Basically if it makes her feel like she is wrong she will reject it.

There was a time when she wanted to have sex with me and I said no. She asked several times actually. I’ve never shown interest in her. So perhaps that is why she thinks I’m being judgmental. I’ve rejected her in that way.

James, it is too bad that she doesn’t get the fact that, if you didn’t care you wouldn’t say a thing. It sounds like she is working though a lot of issues with herself. It is easy to come back and be mad at someone that is trying to keep you true to yourself. It is easier then confronting what you are doing that might be wrong. You are a good friend to her. I hope she sees that.

 

[spiritblows]

Bella3502:

I am glad that the majority of society does not agree with your first step. It is not the answer.

It was the answer that worked pretty well until the 1970’s when abortion was legalized. Incidentally, I wouldn’t be here today if abortion was legal back in 1956, I know this for a fact. My birth mother was a very liberal person, whose family is very pro-choice. I know that because I found them and they told me.

 

[AmyS]

spiritblows:

It was the answer that worked pretty well until the 1970’s when abortion was legalized. Incidentally, I wouldn’t be here today if abortion was legal back in 1956, I know this for a fact. My birth mother was a very liberal person, whose family is very pro-choice. I know that because I found them and they told me.

Wow, what an eye opener…

 

[mlchance]

Bella3502:

I am glad that the majority of society does not agree with your first step. It is not the answer.

Actually, most people agree with me in total or in part. Most people want to see either restrictions on abortion’s availability or else want to see abortion outlawed.

And, yes, it is the answer, and it’s better than any answer you’ve come up with. It’s just an answer you reject. Let me guess: You think women should be allowed to kill their children?

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[1ke]

Bella3502:

I am glad that the majority of society does not agree with your first step. It is not the answer.

Actually poll after poll, including one just last week by CBS, shows that the majority of Americans do in fact believe abortion should be illegal.

Yes, it is the answer, along with continued support for women who become pregnant and need help.

 

[Viki59]

AmyS:

Yes, it is painful… But, what an incredible experience. I don’t even remember the pain anymore, it last when you are in labor… but, i think most moms would agree, once you see that baby, you forget about it very fast. Women have been given such a gift from God to experience pregnancy and the birthing process.

I totally agree with Amy S. There’s too much talk of the pain of childbirth, fueled by stupid dramas on TV where all you hear is screaming.
Childbirth can be a wonderful experience, although of course it is sometimes difficult when something goes wrong. (It is just as dangerous, however, to terminate a pregnancy, and has even worse aftereffects.)
We need to combat the myth that childbirth is always terribly painful. As the Bible says, once a child comes into the world, the mother forgets the pain. A baby is such a blessing.

 

[BlestOne]

Personally, I think we all have this wrong. Since no birth control is 100% effective, the decision should already be assumed at the moment of sexual relations. If you don’t want a child…don’t have sex. If you do have sex, you know a child could result…therefore be a man or woman…you have to take responsibility for your actions. The problem with todays society is that nobody wants to take responsibility. Not the woman, not the man. If it takes a man and a woman to conceive a child…both should be sharing in all decisions from that point on. Now, to carry that to extremes…women should think long and hard about the men they are involved with…what kind of dad would he be? Men would have to do the same…is this woman a suitable mother for my offspring? Having said that…we come back to the only logical conclusion that only a man and a woman that are married to each other should be having sex. Funny how that all makes sense!!!

Since that is a bit too radical and restricting for our liberal friends, we must advocate for the innocents here…the unborn child. Who has the right to kill it? Does the mother have the right because she bears the outward signs of life within her? Does the father because he is co-creator of this life? How about the right of the child to live? Since the child cannot speak for themselves…we are responsible to speak for them. I personally think some wacked out judge should order that a woman may not have an abortion unless the child ok’s it in writing…after of course they reach the age of maturity and reason…try that one, nobody would be allowed to have an abortion then.

Of course this is just my opinion…but things would be much simpler if folks just did things my way…

 

[Bella3502]

mlchance:

Actually, most people agree with me in total or in part. Most people want to see either restrictions on abortion’s availability or else want to see abortion outlawed.

And, yes, it is the answer, and it’s better than any answer you’ve come up with. It’s just an answer you reject. Let me guess: You think women should be allowed to kill their children?

– Mark L. Chance.

If “most” people agree with you then where have they been for the last 30+ years? Why haven’t the laws been changed?

Making abortion illegal is not now and never will be the answer. That’s a fact you reject.

 

[Bella3502]

Orionthehunter:

Prior to being able to have an abortion, the woman would have to either:

1. Provide written permission of the father to have an abortion.
2. If she wants to assert that either she doesn’t know the father or he is unavailable, she’d have to provide an affidavitt of such assertion for which providing a fraudulent affidavitt has severe criminal and civil consequences.

If a doctor performed an abortion w/o one of the above items, there would be severe criminal, civil and professional (loss of medical license) consequences.

If the woman can’t get the permission of the father, he has so many days to produce evidence that he is financially capable to provide for the support of hte child and pay for the cost of the mother’s prenatal care.

While not exactly equal (biologically inequality is pre-determined), it adds greater equity to the scenario of when one parent wants the baby. Currently, all the choice is the woman’s. She can choose to abort w/o consent of the father or she can choose to have the baby and require child support. Under this scenario, without mutual consent, the father can require the woman to bear the child (this is her consequences for her role in getting pregnant) while the father bears the responsibility of raising the child to adulthood.

In order for any of the above to work, wouldn’t you have to bring back slavery? This premise will work if he owns her outright.

 

[JamesG]

Bella3502:

In order for any of the above to work, wouldn’t you have to bring back slavery? This premise will work if he owns her outright.

I think that the liberal controled media hides the truth about abortion and that is why most people don’t speak up about it. The culture itself is blind as a result of 30 years of social marketing.

 

[mlchance]

Bella3502:

If “most” people agree with you then where have they been for the last 30+ years? Why haven’t the laws been changed? Making abortion illegal is not now and never will be the answer. That’s a fact you reject.

Prior to Roe v. Wade, there were about 250 illegal abortions performed annually in the U.S. Post-Roe there are about 3000 abortions performed daily. So, then, exactly how has making abortion legal solved anything? And, since it is a “fact” that making abortion illegal isn’t “the answer,” why don’t you prove this “fact”?

– Mark L. Chance.