She's sleeping with her boyfriend, never goes to confession, and receives!

[Eliza10]

What “otm” reccommended in the just previous post is really excellent. It is very much what seems to be working for me!

Someone who is a somewhat close relative is in the same situation. She is in some ways a very different person from me who looks at life in a very different way and does things differently than I would. It helps to have a friend who is different and helps you to see other ways of looking at the world.

But she and her live-in boyfriend are not married. They have two children. And hey go to Mass and receive communion. I could see from knowing their unusual cirucmstnaces why marraige has not come about yet. There are reasons that make perfect, really rather relative moral sense, in light of their own circumstances, considering they are without the graces and teaching of our Church. Even though they are baptized in it.

I have been concerned about them doing the wrong thing all along, but never felt the right opening to say anything - in spite of the fact that we talk a lot. I do listen a lot, and that has helped me get to know her way of thinking and approaching things and her motives. It takes a lot of listening and withholding of judgment to do that.

I do feel a pull between showing them respect and not railroading her and keeping lines of communication open vs. protecting Jesus in the Eucharist. The latter is extremely important. But I do think it is much more grave a sin if the person knows they should recieve and do so in defiance vs. if they are reciving in good faith, seeking God, and no one has told them they shouldn’t and they look around and see themselves as no different from anyone else. I know they are not receiving in defiance.

i wanted to tell her that what she was doing was very wrong, but I was afraid that she would shut down and no longer share with me and I would not have an opening any more, and she would never want to learn of my faith. My faith is strong, and we rarely talk about it because there has rarely ever seemed a time she was interested in hearing more about it when I would share things, usually highlights about answered prayer or hope. There would be an interest, albeit brief, but it would not include her asking further questions about it.

Then she and her husbnad started to go to Mass, to a church near them, and this was a big step for them. But neither were really catechized, and their priest at this church is fairly, well, modernist, you might say. As they typically are in my Diocese, as, they have most all been trained in the same place and they all bear the distinctive image of that particular training institute. Sigh.

So there is basically no catechizing going on from the pulpit. Just little personal vignettes, general moral lessons loosely related to the readings - that seem bland, not deep to me - all told in a friendly way with an occasional joke to get everyone to laugh. Its a formula they must be taught at our seminary, because thats the norm here. Omigoodness, pardon my yawn! But thats what I always do when I think of these homilies.

Anyway, it is a great leap for them to get the kids out and make Mass a part of their life. As far as telling her she is wrong to take communion, I have been holding out and holding out, because i feel that despite all our talking, she has not given me the “opening” to talk aobut that. But I have taken to praying for her and her husband-like-boyfriend every single consecretion time at every single Mass. And thats a lot of masses, as I go to daily whenever I can and there was a stretch when I had many opportunities.

[part 2 on next post]

 

[Eliza10]

(part 2) I will have to rewrite this some other time! Its a good story. I wrote a long post and divided into two halves, and when I tried to send of the second half, I got a message saying the administrator only allows one post every 60 seconds. I went to back-page and my post was gone and it was also gone from my edit-paste button. Lost in cyberspace and its too late now to rewrite. I don’t know when I can type again. Oh well. I get back eventually.

 

[stanley123]

CindyGia:

Do you know of anything with a more serious statement on this grave matter I can give them both?

Council of Trent
Canon on Preparation for Receiving the Eucharist
“And, lest so great a sacrament be received unworthily and hence unto death and condemnation, this holy council determines and decrees that those whose conscience is burdened with mortal sin, no matter how contrite they may think they are, must necessarily make first a sacramental confession if a confessor is available. If anyone presumes to teach, or preach. or obstinately maintain, or defend in public disputation the opposite of this, he shall by the very fact be excommunicated.”

 

[Tonks40]

I hope this post relates to the OP but…

…would it be a good idea to invite this person to a penance service? I know in my area, many parishes are gearing up for these in the next week or two during the Advent season. Maybe talk to them a bit about why we’re doing it, about the anticipation of the coming Messiah and how we should be ready to recieve him here on Earth?

Reason why I ask is that I, too, have a friend in a similiar situation - weekly Mass goer, single, but seeing a married man. Would this be a good opportunity for opening that dialogue? Or would it just make the person get defensive about his/her decisions?

 

[Kristina_P]

CindyGia:

I can understand how it would be harder for teenagers to practice chastity - with hormones out of control and all – but these people are 28 and 26 and he is a fairly good Catholic (so to speak.)

I know young people these days “cannot live” without sexual gratification, and find it ludicrous to hold out from having sexual relations until marriage - but for crying out loud, if you’re Catholic, get to confession each week, or refuse to receive communion until you do. It’s as simple as that.

Um… I’m just in RCIA, but isn’t it not “as simple as that”? If you go to confession every week but are planning to commit the same sin, you’re not really repentant. In fact, you’re abusing the sacrament and making a mockery of God’s forgiveness. By the way, I’m 23 and living quite happily without sexual gratification, so being a “young person these days” is hardly an excuse for ignoring the Church’s teachings. Judging from the situation you’ve described, I’d say that both the people in question are guilty of sexual sin and should not receive Communion until they’ve actually repented of and ceased their sin.

 

[EsclavoDeCristo]

Kristina P.:

Um… I’m just in RCIA, but isn’t it not “as simple as that”? If you go to confession every week but are planning to commit the same sin, you’re not really repentant. In fact, you’re abusing the sacrament and making a mockery of God’s forgiveness. By the way, I’m 23 and living quite happily without sexual gratification, so being a “young person these days” is hardly an excuse for ignoring the Church’s teachings. Judging from the situation you’ve described, I’d say that both the people in question are guilty of sexual sin and should not receive Communion until they’ve actually repented of and ceased their sin.

I think we all agree that they should not receive Christ in the Eucharist, but the real issue is what is the best way to go about telling / wittnessing to that? Seems that some would take the direct approach while others would not say anything directly but try and be a friend and good influence. I think we would all agree that anything we do needs to be prefaced with much prayer and be well thoughtout.

Personally I would go the indirect route so as to not totally close the person off to me…

 

[starlucid]

Thank you otm you made the point I was trying to make very eloquently. My point is giving a message of condemnation to this young Christian couple will not acomplish anything positive imho. If anything it may turn them off to the Church completely.
IMHO we are all sinners and have no right to judge other sinners.
If Gia wants to help this couple to stop sinning she should find a way that does not seem judgemental or rebukking.
I would give the young man a article on marriage and courtship they are going to be engaged.
I would approach the young man and tell him I want to be the first to give them an engagement present then I would give them appropriate inspired book or literature for a Catholic couple considering marriage.
This would be recieved well the man would share it with his girlfriend and the information would be inspired and loving. He and his bride as Catholics will probably want a Catholic wedding some day so this may induce them to do things differently in accordance with Christian principals
Gia would be remembered as a loving sister in faith who gave guidance and affection not a meddling person. Ok that is my unpopular opinion. But I believe it to be the right one for me.

otm:

there seems to be a good deal of debate going on as to whether or not the OP should speak up. There might be several points to ponder.

1. Most people don’t like to hear anyone critique their choices and behavior. In fact, many people will simply shut you off if you start to lecture them (and amazingly, even a very indirect, softly couched comment is often treated as a lecture); and some wil be driven farther away - as in, some who are going to church now will quit if confronted head on.

Therefore it is incumbant upon the one wishing to do something about the situation to find a way of doing it that does not do more damage.

1. One needs to be postively clear that one’s motives are truyly pure. It is easy to come from a place of pride that one knows more than the other does and thus the other needs to be told; another way of putting it is self-righteousness. One also should seek the guidance of the Holy Spirit in such a mission; it is not our truth we speak, but God’s; one needs to be guided by the Spirit when attempting such a mission.
2. The New Testament tells us to remove the log from our eye before going to a brother or sister to remove a splinter; we need especially to pay attention to this teaching.

Having said that, one of the best approaches is not to tell them anything, but to ask them a lot. It is generally referred to as the Socratic method. I susp[ect they know what the Church teaches, but have been unwilling to apply the teaching. Telling them what they already know is likely to not go too far in the right direction, but rather, speed off in the wrong one.

There is also a fair amount of information available that could apply; Jason Evert’s booklet on chastity comes immediately to mind. And before insisting they read it, read the above notes; it is much more effective to ask than tell…

There is also some valuable points to be made by Janet Smith’s tape (I think it is called “Chastity, Why Not?”).

Keep also in mind that charity means that you do not pick up or convey an attitutde of judgement, or disdain, or disgust, or anything else that conveys an attitude of “I’m better than you”. That is not easy in such a situation.

[/quote]

 

[CindyGia]

Hi guys.
I’m sorry I couldn’t post sooner but my work computer was down and I couldn’t access this site until now. I was absolutely shocked to see so many posts here. I haven’t read them all but I did see one post asking why I did not say anything to the boyfriend - my co-worker. The fact is I’ve already discussed this with him, and explain that he “must go to confession!” He always says “I know, I know”, but I don’t think he really gets it.

As far as the other posts are concerned, especially “starlucid” I have to say that I do not go around as some sort of righteous religious freak waving my finger at him. The fact is, I rarely talk to him about stuff like this, but when the conversation ends up on the Catholic Church, he begins to tell me things that concern me. It is then that I have to jump in and try to explain that what they are doing is a grave mortal sin and they both need to go to confession. It was in this conversation that he confessed to me that she never goes to confession and that he is concerned about it. I also explained to him that he needs to go to confession more than once or twice a year and he agreed - doesn’t mean he will. I know that they will not cease from having premarital sex, but I think going to confession as much as they can will help cleanse their souls.

My point is that they are receiving the Eucharist in mortal sin and this not only hurts their own souls but the entire church, since we are all One Body In Christ!

Since he doesn’t really seem to take it seriously, I figured there was something more I could do to give him to read to show them the grave importance to this matter. He must also come to the realization that he is just as guilty as she.

I also wanted to add below some scripture which states we must correct and admonish those who are in error:

2 Timothy 4:2
preach the word, be urgent in season and out of season, convince, rebuke, and exhort, be unfailing in patience and in teaching.

2 Timothy 16
16: All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,

2 Timothy 2:25: correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant that they will repent and come to know the truth,

26: and they may escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will.

Jeremiah 5:3: O LORD, do not thy eyes look for truth? Thou hast smitten them, but they felt no anguish; thou hast consumed them, but they refused to take correction. They have made their faces harder than rock; they have refused to repent.

2 Chronicals 6:27: then hear thou in heaven, and forgive the sin of thy servants, thy people Israel, when thou dost teach them the good way in which they should walk; and grant rain upon thy land, which thou hast given to thy people as an inheritance.:

Titus 2:1: But as for you, teach what befits sound doctrine.

Colossians 3: 16: Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly, teach and admonish one another in all wisdom, and sing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs with thankfulness in your hearts to God.

1 Corinthians 4: 14: I do not write this to make you ashamed, but to admonish you as my beloved children.
Titus 3: 10: As for a man who is factious, after admonishing him once or twice, have nothing more to do with him,

Starlucid, in all due respect I believe you are wrong in suggesting I “butt-out”. Your opinion is exactly an example of what we as Catholics SHOULD NOT do. One should never stand by and allow other Catholics to profane the Body of Christ. These Catholics truly may not be aware of what they are doing is sacrilegious and need to be educated, which I wholeheartedly intend to do. I do not care what they think, but at least the seed will be planted. And by the way, I do not personally speak to his girlfriend, I will have to communicate to her through him, who since being “somewhat” of a good Catholic, will take into consideration what I have to say (I hope). He has already expressed that he is not happy with the fact that she does not go to confession. In conclusion, I am truly concerned for both of them. These are young people who should be aware of Who they are receiving in Communion, and who should learn more of Church teachings – which I hope to extend to them - the little I know.

God Bless

 

[CindyGia]

Tonks40:

I hope this post relates to the OP but…

…would it be a good idea to invite this person to a penance service? I know in my area, many parishes are gearing up for these in the next week or two during the Advent season. Maybe talk to them a bit about why we’re doing it, about the anticipation of the coming Messiah and how we should be ready to recieve him here on Earth?

Reason why I ask is that I, too, have a friend in a similiar situation - weekly Mass goer, single, but seeing a married man. Would this be a good opportunity for opening that dialogue? Or would it just make the person get defensive about his/her decisions?

Hi Tonks.
He lives quite far away from where I live and I don’t think he would really appreciate my suggesting he come with me to a penance service. I wouldn’t have the heart to ask him to do this either. It’s bad enough I tell him to go to confession.
But thanks!

 

[CindyGia]

Just to let everyone know I ordered the CD’s “Naked Without Shame” and intend to give it to him, my co-worker, as a Christmas present to them both.

Until then, the subject has been dropped. Like I said, I hardly ever talk to him about the Church, but when I do, I always feel the need to suggest to him they really must go to confession. Now it’s more urgent since I learned she has never gone to confession. I don’t understand this. She obviously does not understand her own faith or its sacraments.

A clueless cradle Catholic. Typical though.

 

[CindyGia]

CindyGia:

Just to let everyone know I ordered the CD’s “Naked Without Shame” and intend to give it to him, my co-worker, as a Christmas present to them both.

Until then, the subject has been dropped. Like I said, I hardly ever talk to him about the Church, but when I do, I always feel the need to suggest to him they really must go to confession. Now it’s more urgent since I learned she has never gone to confession. I don’t understand this. She obviously does not understand her own faith or its sacraments.

A clueless cradle Catholic. Typical though.

Thank you for all your advice, opinions, and suggestions.
God Bless you all!
CindyG.

 

[ElizabethAnne]

CindyGia:

He has also mentioned once or twice the need for sex and how he cannot fathom how a priest could live without it.

I really think that comments like that are perfect opportunities to speak up. He has brought up the subject entirely, and my response would be, “Priests live without sex just like all unmarried people are called to do as well. I’ve done it. My friends have done it. And we have all survived without sex.”

Or I would say something about how our culture places too much importance on sex, trying to replace a longing for love and intimacy with instant sexual gratification.

As a faithful Catholic, I’m more than happy to discuss topics like that with people who bring them up.

God bless you.

 

[CindyGia]

ElizabethAnne:

I really think that comments like that are perfect opportunities to speak up. He has brought up the subject entirely, and my response would be, “Priests live without sex just like all unmarried people are called to do as well. I’ve done it. My friends have done it. And we have all survived without sex.”

Or I would say something about how our culture places too much importance on sex, trying to replace a longing for love and intimacy with instant sexual gratification.

As a faithful Catholic, I’m more than happy to discuss topics like that with people who bring them up.

God bless you.

Yes you are absolutely right ElizabethAnne. I remember a while back when the subject came up I did say to him that I have lived celibately now for years and his response was a shake of the head, a 'tsk, tsk" and a laugh with the comment “that’s because you’re crazy.” (The entire office is perfectly aware that I am hoping to go into religious life by next year.)

I told him it is a grace from God. One that he should try to obtain. Again, a smile and shaking of the head.

 

[ElizabethAnne]

CindyGia:

Yes you are absolutely right ElizabethAnne. I remember a while back when the subject came up I did say to him that I have lived celibately now for years and his response was a shake of the head, a 'tsk, tsk" and a laugh with the comment “that’s because you’re crazy.” (The entire office is perfectly aware that I am hoping to go into religious life by next year.)

I told him it is a grace from God. One that he should try to obtain. Again, a smile and shaking of the head.

Those are great responses! It’s really too bad that he dismisses them. I will say a prayer tonight for him and others whose ears are closed to what God asks of them.

 

[trogiah]

I have been following this thread, trying to figure out what was bothering me about it, and finally decided it was the idea that somehow sinners should be kept from God’s presence. Please consider the following scripture. "While he was at table in his house, many tax collectors and sinners came and sat with Jesus and his disciples. 11 The Pharisees saw this and said to his disciples, “Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and sinners?” 12 He heard this and said, “Those who are well do not need a physician, but the sick do. 13 Go and learn the meaning of the words, ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice.’ I did not come to call the righteous but sinners.”

I believe that we should be more concerned about those who are sinners and don’t seek out God’s presence than about those who are sinners who do seek out God’s presence. Yes, there is a time and place to admonish those who are following a path that doesn’t lead to life. But if an individual comes to church with the slightest inkling that God may have something to offer them, and only the individual can know that for sure, then it doesn’t seem to be God’s will that they be refused contact with God.

peace

Jim

 

[Kristina_P]

CindyGia:

I know that they will not cease from having premarital sex, but I think going to confession as much as they can will help cleanse their souls.

So, their grave mortal sin doesn’t bother you, as long as they go to a mock confession and pretend to repent? I’m glad for your concern for this couple, but condoning their sin of fornication while insisting that they compound it with the sin of mocking Christ’s forgiveness is not helping them.

You say this man agrees with you that he should go to confession and that he’s concerned because his girlfriend doesn’t go. This shows he is leaning toward being more serious about his faith. Don’t close the door on him and assume that God isn’t capable of helping him out of sin. If you’re going to confront him at all, confront him with his actual sin and urge him to make a real, valid confession.

 

[CindyGia]

Kristina P.:

So, their grave mortal sin doesn’t bother you, as long as they go to a mock confession and pretend to repent? I’m glad for your concern for this couple, but condoning their sin of fornication while insisting that they compound it with the sin of mocking Christ’s forgiveness is not helping them.

You say this man agrees with you that he should go to confession and that he’s concerned because his girlfriend doesn’t go. This shows he is leaning toward being more serious about his faith. Don’t close the door on him and assume that God isn’t capable of helping him out of sin. If you’re going to confront him at all, confront him with his actual sin and urge him to make a real, valid confession.

I suppose I believe with all my heart that once they both start going to confession God will give them the grace (and fortitude) to begin living a chaste life until they are married sometime next year. I strongly believe that going to confession is better than not going to confession, even if they continue having premarital relations. I am sure that they both know in their hearts this is wrong, and that their confession will be sincerely contrite. The reason why I say this is because I remember when I was living as “freely” as they are, and everytime I committed this mortal sin, while being Protestant, which seemed perfectly fine before and during - I felt awful and dirty afterward. I knew in my heart it was a terrible sin. No one can tell me that all unmarried people don’t feel the same. I think it is that special embedded grace God instills in all men to know right from wrong. Needless-to-say, I believe that God will give them both the grace to live a more chaste life once they start going to confession.

Again, I want to thank you all for your concerns and prayers. You have helped me very much. I will take to heart all suggestions and tread carefully in this matter.
God Bless.

 

[Kristina_P]

CindyGia:

I suppose I believe with all my heart that once they both start going to confession God will give them the grace (and fortitude) to begin living a chaste life until they are married sometime next year. I strongly believe that going to confession is better than not going to confession, even if they continue having premarital relations. I am sure that they both know in their hearts this is wrong, and that their confession will be sincerely contrite. The reason why I say this is because I remember when I was living as “freely” as they are, and everytime I committed this mortal sin, while being Protestant, which seemed perfectly fine before and during - I felt awful and dirty afterward. I knew in my heart it was a terrible sin. No one can tell me that all unmarried people don’t feel the same. I think it is that special embedded grace God instills in all men to know right from wrong. Needless-to-say, I believe that God will give them both the grace to live a more chaste life once they start going to confession.

Again, I want to thank you all for your concerns and prayers. You have helped me very much. I will take to heart all suggestions and tread carefully in this matter.
God Bless.

Thank you for your explanation, and I apologize for my terseness. I was just concerned that your priorities were out of whack, and I now see that they aren’t. I truly apologize for not being charitable enough to give you the benefit of the doubt.

 

[CindyGia]

Kristina P.:

Thank you for your explanation, and I apologize for my terseness. I was just concerned that your priorities were out of whack, and I now see that they aren’t. I truly apologize for not being charitable enough to give you the benefit of the doubt.

Thanks Kristina. Apology accepted. No offense taken. I truly weighed out and took into consideration everything that was discussed here. Thanks again for your post. It also helped me.

 

[milimac]

starlucid:

My point is giving a message of condemnation to this young Christian couple will not acomplish anything positive imho. If anything it may turn them off to the Church completely.
IMHO we are all sinners and have no right to judge other sinners.
If Gia wants to help this couple to stop sinning she should find a way that does not seem judgemental or rebukking.
I would give the young man a article on marriage and courtship they are going to be engaged.

I agree, but I think rebuke, admonish, exhort, chastise, etc., have very negative connotations – a connotation that it is done without love for the person receiving it and/or done in an uncharitable way that makes the giver feel superior or feel like they’re scoring points with God – self-righteousness. I agree that it is mostly giving encouragement in ways to nurture their relationships with God, but once they sincerely want that for themselves, it’s showing why what they are doing is damaging that relationship to God and to each other.

I think it’s also more effective, if not essential, for the person giving the admonishment to have a close relationship with the person receiving it. If you aren’t risking anything it will probably indeed be looked at as meddling and self-righteousness. If the person receiving it doesn’t sense your love for them, I don’t think you’re going to get anywhere. However sometimes their attachment to sin is so strong that they are going to think and feel whatever they want to feel to justify their sin. I don’t think we should be afraid of people leaving the Church. I think they’d actually be living a more honest life (albeit still in sin) and they may actually have a better chance of conversion if they felt their separation from God than staying in Church and having the delusion that they are in communion.

As a former profaner of the Eucharist myself, I am ashamed to say, I wish my parents – or ANYONE close to me or not – would have pulled me aside and given me some kind but firm words of encouragement or even a few slaps to wake me up from my self-delusion. Thank God through Mary and the saints I was finally rescued and repented from many mortal sins that were so woven into my life that I had little hope that freedom from them was even possible. I just wish it would’ve happened sooner and I had never profaned the Eucharist. Totus Tuus.

Mortal sinners like I was are very concerned about themselves and what people think of them. I can’t say I have shaken that self-centeredness completely. I was in my self-deluded world where I felt it was OK to receive the Eucharist if I was planning on going to Confession soon, and would delude myself that I would go to confession soon, or reason with myself “What does ‘soon’ really mean?” Also, especially with family and friends around me, sitting while everyone else goes up felt like blaring a trumpet and declaring “I’m a mortal sinner!” Unfortunately rather than being an encouragement to go to Confession, that peer pressure made me receive the Eucharist with mortal sins on my conscience. I think a few words from the priest just before distributing Communion with a reminder that those in mortal sin need to receive the sacrament of Reconciliation would have been helpful.