Shootings demonstrate need for gun control, USCCB says

[TK421]

@FrDavid96
Well, that remains to me seen. I feel comfortable that gun owners are gradually going to lose ground over the issue. There is too much pressure both from within and from without. As the world becomes more and more globalized, Americans are going to be increasing exposed to different ways of life that don’t involve a militarized population & a militarized police. They are isolated on this issue.

I am coerced against my will into voting for pro-gun people in order to safeguard exceedingly more important issues relating to religious liberty & a Culture of Life. Here in New Mexico I can’t even vote for candidates besides the anti-human / pro-genocide blue one, the anti-science red one, or the crazy libertarian. It’s basically a dual-dynasty.

An increasing number of Republicans are softened on the issue. They might not want to detox the population, but they’re at least open to passing further controls.

But given the opportunity, I’ll put my mark into getting rid of your civil right

 

[SuperLuigi]

But then, they wouldn’t be able to virtue-signal on the internet about how much they “care”.

 

[TK421]

TK421:

The problem with the Eddie the Eagle program is that it would be indoctrinating an entire generation of Catholic children to be pro-gun and start thinking about guns in a positive context,

Well, obviously. Why do you think the gun rights advocates want to get the program into schools? It’s indoctrination, pure and simple.

You’ll notice that they won’t advocate that, here in my city, the New York City Police Department (which I’m pretty sure is quite qualified to teach gun safety and responsibility and all that) teach these courses. That’s because the NYPD is very much in favor of strict gun regulation.

It’s not just about safety.

It surprises me the NYPD would be in favor of gun restrictions. I realize NY is a more liberal area, but police & military almost always fall hard in favor of a militarized population.

We have a tendency to want everybody to be like ourselves.

 

[JonNC]

The problem with the Eddie the Eagle program is that it would be indoctrinating an entire generation of Catholic children to be pro-gun and start thinking about guns in a positive context, when what America needs is a detox from addiction and a detox from psychological dependency on firearms.

Not what Eddie Eagle does.
"Stop! Don’t touch! Run away. Tell a grown up. ".

Americans are no more addicted to the right to keep and bear arms than to any other right. They don’t need to “detox”, or any other jargon.

 

[FrDavid96]

By this point, I think I’ve said my piece. I’ve made my contribution to the conversation, take it or leave it.

There are also a few other threads with this same subject.

Anyway, I’m unsubscribing. Only for the reason that I don’t feel I can say anything more to contribute. Whatever I say now would just be both repetitious and redundant.

 

[JonNC]

Well, that remains to me seen. I feel comfortable that gun owners are gradually going to lose ground over the issue. There is too much pressure both from within and from without. As the world becomes more and more globalized, Americans are going to be increasing exposed to different ways of life that don’t involve a militarized population & a militarized police. They are isolated on this issue.

There are hundreds of millions of firearms in this country, and many of them are in areas not influenced by those who think only government should have guns.
And the world frankly doesn’t matter.
So unless and until we see a demilitarization of nations around the world, there seems no reason to unarm peaceful Americans who are exercising their inherent right.

An increasing number of Republicans are softened on the issue. They might not want to detox the population, but they’re at least open to passing further controls.

It is interesting how you speak of the inherent right to arms as toxic. Do you think due process is something politicians need to detox Americans from? That, of course, was the response of Democrats in congress last year regarding “no fly no buy” last year.

 

[JonNC]

But guns are a self-inflicted risk. There is no actual need of them being present in a home and they serve no function (excluding riflemanship for hunters, but it’s safe to say an adolescent going hunting would be taught). It would be like teaching somebody how to safely use a jackhammer who isn’t a construction worker.

That’s not for you to decide. I live on a country road. Sheriff response time is no better than 10-12 minutes. I say I do have a need, and since it is a right, your opinion doesn’t matter, just like my opinion about what you say doesn’t matter in terms of your right to say it.

Additionally, the constitution lays out the primary reason for the protection of the inherent right. And the SCOTUS has made clear that self defense is an absolute reason as well.
If you believe you don’t need a gun, that is your choice. You don’t get to make mine for me.

 

[SuperLuigi]

“USCCB has suggested policies for better background checks, limitations to high-powered weapons, more laws criminalizing gun traffic, improved access to mental health care, and increased safety measures on guns.”

You guys oppose this??

We can do what the USCCB wants in general by just enforcing existing laws. Laws mean nothing if they aren’t enforced, and those who call for new laws just to feel good are virtue-signaling and will make matters worse.

The operative word here is scandal.

 

[SuperLuigi]

An increasing number of Republicans are softened on the issue.

Republicans caving is old news.

 

[JonNC]

JonNC:

An increasing number of Republicans are softened on the issue.

Republicans caving is old news.

Yeah, though not my quote. That said, I can easily see sanctuary cities and counties and even states for those who refuse to give up the right to arms, if in fact those who favor a government monopoly on firearms have their way.

 

[JonNC]

Repeating truth is never redundant.

Thanks, Father

 

[Brendan]

What are the missing? Well, to start with, a definition of what constitutes a ‘high powered weapon’.

The 12g shotguns that are used in hunting? Those are high powered, or deer hunting rifles, those are high powered too. The .30-06, which is a common deer round, has a muzzle energy of 3356 ft\lbs. The 12g with a deer slug is 2538 ft\lbs. Do the bishops object to those?

The .223 Remingtion round used by the AR-15, is a low power round with a muzzle energy of 1099 ft\lbs, considered too light in many states to hunt legally deer with. So is the AR-15 excluded?

 

[TK421]

@JonNC

We’ll see.

Criminals should not be dehumanized. They are people who have a conscience - albeit most of them have experienced abuse in some fashion. A neglectful parent. An aggresive parent. etc. Europe has criminals, but only a small minority ever go to the lengths to acquire a gun. That is because the background culture isn’t a gun culture. They don’t feel coerced into getting one. That and it is more difficult to find one, even through an illicit market. Again: most criminals aren’t career criminals. Only a small minority of the criminal population are hardened, “career” criminals.

The pattern goes something like this: population has guns. Stakes are raised. Criminal population responds by having guns. Stakes are raised. Nonlethal crime is converted into lethal crime. This is why I have called the US gun culture an Arms Race. It is an Arms Race between the general population and the criminal population. The general population has guns ergo the criminal population is coerced into getting guns. It is a cause-and-effect repeating loop.

So you having a gun is not a private issue. It does matter. The civil authorities have the God-given right to take it away from you, in theory, if they choose to do that, and you would be obliged to obey under penalty of sin. Gun ownership (along with SSM and abortion) might be considered a right in the US, but the US is run by men.

That being said, there is no specific teaching on gun ownership, since there is nothing about it that is an intrinsic evil. I am not saying a person who owns a gun is sinning. But, the civil authorities in a nation do have the right to take guns away from the population. Multiple countries have done this without condemnation by the Church.

We would also need to dig into the drug culture and how the US responds to it in the form of a war (again: it does it by dehumanizing people and promoting career criminals). But that deserves another topic in itself.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

You could say it but it wouldn’t be true. Abortion is the quintessential moral/political issue. Unlike political issues which have no moral component (including gun control and the vast majority of other issues), the church has a specific position on abortion about which Catholics may not (legitimately) disagree. There is virtually no proposal on gun control about which Catholics may not freely take opposite sides.

Your are comparing the wrong issues. Abortion is evil. So is murder with a gun. The church has taken a position on both of those issues. You are saying the Church has not taken a definite position on what is the best action to take to address gun violence. If that is correct we must also say the Church has not taken a definite position on what specific actions should be taken to address abortion. Those are the issues you should be comparing.

 

[JonNC]

Criminals should not be dehumanized. They are people who have a conscience - albeit most of them have experienced abuse in some fashion. A neglectful parent. An aggresive parent. etc.

I’m not dehumanizing anyone, but I have a right and a duty to protect my family from them.

Europe has criminals, but only a small minority ever go to the lengths to acquire a gun. That is because the background culture isn’t a gun culture. They don’t feel coerced into getting one. That and it is more difficult to find one, even through an illicit market.

Again, it doesn’t matter what Europe does. We are not Europe. The US doesn’t not have a gun culture. We have a culture of individual rights, which includes the right to keep and bear arms.
We’ve seen in numerous European countries that the loss of arms rights cost many others. We’ve seen governments of Europe kill thousands or millions of their own civilians. If you want to stop gun violence, disarm governments, because that is where the vast amount of gun violence is perpetrated. And Europe has seen its share.

The pattern goes something like this: population has guns. Stakes are raised. Criminal population responds by having guns. Stakes are raised. Nonlethal crime is converted into lethal crime. This is why I have called the US gun culture an Arms Race. It is an Arms Race between the general population and the criminal population. The general population has guns ergo the criminal population is coerced into getting guns. It is a cause-and-effect repeating loop.

So you having a gun is not a private issue. It does matter.The civil authorities have the God-given right to take it away form you if they choose to do that, and you would be obliged to obey. Gun ownership, along with SSM and abortion, might be considered a right in the US, but the US is run by men

It still isn’t your business if I exercise my right, as long as I, personally, don’t harm you or another with it. Government’s job is to stop the criminal, stop the criminal from using arms, all the while protecting the rights of law abiding citizens. My having a gun is no excuse for someone else using a gun against another outside self defense or defense of another.
The civilian authority does not have any rights. Government doesn’t have rights. Individuals do have rights.
Government does not have the authority or power to take arms away from the people, because it is an inherent right, one protected by the constitution. And I would be obliged to defend my rights.

 

[TK421]

@JonNC

The US constitution is a man-made invention. It was not penned by God. A human being saying that gun ownership is a God-given right does not make it so, anymore than a human being saying there is no sun makes the sun cease to exist.

I realize the constitution is the source material used for passing laws & regulation in the US. But on a wider scale, several countries have chosen to ban guns and take them away from the population, and the Holy See has not issued a condemnation to this in the way it has over other issues. So, at least from a Catholic position, a Catholic has no authority to say “Gun ownership is a God-given right”. It is none of their business as a mere creature to make such a statement. They would be entitled to their personal opinion that a country with lax gun regulations is better than a country with strict gun regulations, and they could make a case for why they feel that way. But they’ve no right to claim it is a God-given right. The authority to make those determinations is transmitted through Apostolic Succession.

People of other faith traditions might have a different take.

 

[Inisfallen]

It surprises me the NYPD would be in favor of gun restrictions. I realize NY is a more liberal area, but police & military almost always fall hard in favor of a militarized population.

It doesn’t surprise me. The NYPD remembers the city of the seventies and eighties, when crime, including gun crime, really was out of control. They don’t want to see that happen again. Thus, they favor strict gun regulation, and strict enforcement of the laws.

That’s one reason why New York City isn’t Chicago.

 

[SuperLuigi]

But on a wider scale, several countries have chosen to ban guns and take them away from the population

Brazil has the strictest gun laws but firearm homocide and suicide rates there are higher.

Nearly every single mass shooting that has happened in America was done in a gun-FREE zone.

 

[SuperLuigi]

Are you really asking Father Dave to just go on an appeal to authority?

 

[JonNC]

The US constitution is a man-made invention. It was not penned by God. A human being saying that gun ownership is a God-given right does not make it so, anymore than a human being saying there is no sun makes the sun cease to exist.

But the rights protected there are inherent. And the right to self defense are inherent.
You saying we don’t have a right to self defense also doesn’t make it right.

But on a wider scale, several countries have chosen to ban guns and take them away from the population, and the Holy See has not issued a condemnation to this in the way it has over other issues.

While I respect to opinion of the Holy See, what other countries do remains irrelevant